Spouse Swapping

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Carborendum said:

After hearing from youth counselors, I'm convinced that if it is possible to do, if a youth hears about it and has not been raised properly, they will copy an urban legend.  This sounds just plausible enough to me that even if it started out as a legend, I'd bet dollars to donuts, that some college kids tried to do it.  But then they got hit with reality.

While Nevada allows weddings at the drop of a hat.  Divorce and annulment are for residents only.  They'd have to get the divorce or annulment in Utah.  And a divorce is much more complicated than an annulment.

The term isn't used much anymore, but even I heard of "Reno Divorces". Where a person would move there for six weeks, take advantage of Nevada resident/divorce laws then move on there merry way. I don't know if it still happens now. 

Sad that people treat marriage like this. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

The term isn't used much anymore, but even I heard of "Reno Divorces". Where a person would move there for six weeks, take advantage of Nevada resident/divorce laws then move on there merry way. I don't know if it still happens now. 

Yup.  But it kinda makes the "divorce the next day after a weekend fling" kinda go out the window.

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Sad that people treat marriage like this. 

It sure is.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

But it kinda makes the "divorce the next day after a weekend fling" kinda go out the window.

My thoughts totally. 
 

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

It sure is.

This coming from the guy who has been married more times than Mickey Rooney. 

(See @Vort? A Mickey Rooney reference! Someone like you who grew up in the time of the Andy Hardy movies should get that!) 
 

Edited May 21, 2018 by MormonGator

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

12 minutes ago, Vort said:

My informant, whom I knew to be truthful and not given to making stuff up and who claimed to have second-person knowledge of the event, indicated that the marriages were ended by divorce, not annulment. I don't claim to have any knowledge one way or the other.

Mmmm hmmm.  

If I recall correctly -- and I can't even remember the name or face of the person who told me, so take that into account -- one of the principals was a son in a family in their stake, a family that was friends to their family. There were, I don't remember, six to twelve people involved, not just one or two couples. Anyway, please take any of this with a particularly large grain of salt. I hope that my friend (or my memory) was mistaken, and this was all just an unsubstantiated urban legend. I would be pleased to think that no Latter-day Saint, and especially no BYU student, would be so foolish as to mock marriage in this manner. Better, perhaps, just to fornicate without pretense than to arrange a sham marriage to "justify" oneself.

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

I guess in the end, I wouldn't want her to be alone for a long time.  Nor would I want to be alone.  I imagine many couples have wrestled with this.

44 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I think that last paragraph there is the money quote.  I suspect most folks can work through the issues when they realize that the alternative for their surviving spouse is to spend the rest of their lives alone.

Anyone seen the movie Always? (Holly Hunter and Richard Dreyfuss)

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

This coming from the guy who has been married more times than Mickey Rooney. 

(See @Vort? A Mickey Rooney reference! Someone like you who grew up in the time of the Andy Hardy movies should get that!) 
 

A few months back, I found myself making a reference to Peyton Place.

PEYTON PLACE!

And I've never even seen the movie. Time to update my cultural references.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

This coming from the guy who has been married more times than Mickey Rooney. 

I had no idea he was married so many times.  Hollywood.

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

A few months back, I found myself making a reference to Peyton Place.

PEYTON PLACE!

And I've never even seen the movie. Time to update my cultural references.

OMG I GREW UP TWO TOWNS OVER FROM WHERE THAT BOOK TAKES PLACE. 

The writer of the book grew up in Manchester near my grandfather! 

I remember when I asked my mom about that book and she turned bright red. She stammered, danced around it and changed the subject. Years later we laughed about it. I was like 9 years old! 

Edited May 21, 2018 by MormonGator

[Lost Boy]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Anyone seen the movie Always? (Holly Hunter and Richard Dreyfuss)

That is a great movie.  Kind of hard to watch poor Richard Dreyfuss's character have to witness his love go to another.

[person0]

1 hour ago, Lost Boy said:

I guess in the end, I wouldn't want her to be alone for a long time.  Nor would I want to be alone.  I imagine many couples have wrestled with this.

I don't think it's much of a wrestle.  If my wife were to die, I would want to begin my search for a new wife very quickly, especially if I had children still living at home.  My wife and I have made a deal that neither of us will ever break our sealing in the event of the death of the other and re-marriage.  However, even if that were to happen, I am absolutely confident that in the next life, all our memories from eternity before this life will return, and so even if a different eternal companion was procured for someone, chances are likely that we will have enough of a relationship from before mortality, or enough overall understanding, that it won't end up being much of an issue at all.

[BJ64]

12 minutes ago, person0 said:

I don't think it's much of a wrestle.  If my wife were to die, I would want to begin my search for a new wife very quickly, especially if I had children still living at home.  My wife and I have made a deal that neither of us will ever break our sealing in the event of the death of the other and re-marriage.  However, even if that were to happen, I am absolutely confident that in the next life, all our memories from eternity before this life will return, and so even if a different eternal companion was procured for someone, chances are likely that we will have enough of a relationship from before mortality, or enough overall understanding, that it won't end up being much of an issue at all.

While a living woman can only be sealed to one man, a living man can be sealed to more than one woman so long as the women he is sealed to are not sealed to other men. 

[person0]

52 minutes ago, Vort said:

I would be pleased to think that no Latter-day Saint, and especially no BYU student, would be so foolish as to mock marriage in this manner.

Sadly, a little internet research has resulted in my discovery of the following comments (neither of which I can substantiate beyond the poster's claims):

Quote

It is not an urban legend entirely. My own father did the Vegas wedding and annulment in the early 60s. When my parents divorced in the early 90s, my mother told my siblings and I all about it to shame my dad. He confirmed it. 
. . . my Dad wasn't kicked out of BYU, because his Bishop never found out. He did get excommunicated when my mom spilled the beans during the messy divorce. His 'first wife' had passed away by that time (cancer), so she she was never punished.
. . . Both have remarried and were rebaptized in the church. My mom . . . is inactive and married to a [non-member]. As my Dad got older, he . . . became an ultra TBM.

Quote

personally knew some who had been 'married' more than four times. They kept it quiet but if outed were able to show a legal marriage certificate. 1960's.

Quote

When I was at BYU a letter was read in sacrament meeting saying that anyone going to Las Vegas and getting married to have sex would be excommunicated. Don't know if such marriages ever happened or not. But there was enough concern about it that an official statement was made.

Quote

. . . in 1978. . . One of my room mates did this very thing.
One Friday he was all excited because he was going to have "legal" sex. He knew of several students who had done it and it worked like a charm for them so he decided he was going to do it. He went down Friday, they got the certificate and got married at some cheap little chappel. Then they went to the hotel and did the wild funky monkey dance all weekend and came home. Monday morning they called the court house in Vegas and somehow took care of the divorce and all he had to do was send $50 bucks to the court and two weeks later his annulment papers came in the mail.
I knew several people personally who did this. I actually saw the marriage certificate and the annulment papers with my own eyes.

On a personal note, I met a missionary who served in KY.  He told me how one of his family members did this very thing (I can't recall if it was a brother or cousin).  However, in a positive turn of events, the couple decided to stay married and at that time had been married for at least a few years (I naturally assume they still are, but I have no way to confirm this).

Interestingly, every single one of these stories is at best a second hand account (including mine - technically).  So without actual first hand knowledge from someone who had done it, perhaps we can hope that these are all just fantastical propagation of an urban legend.

[person0]

14 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

While a living woman can only be sealed to one man, a living man can be sealed to more than one woman so long as the women he is sealed to are not sealed to other men. 

Yes, I am aware of that, but the way I wrote it seemed shorter and more concise at the time; I also was assuming most people would already know that.

[BJ64]

13 minutes ago, person0 said:

Sadly, a little internet research has resulted in my discovery of the following comments (neither of which I can substantiate beyond the poster's claims):

On a personal note, I met a missionary who served in KY.  He told me how one of his family members did this very thing (I can't recall if it was a brother or cousin).  However, in a positive turn of events, the couple decided to stay married and at that time had been married for at least a few years (I naturally assume they still are, but I have no way to confirm this).

Interestingly, every single one of these stories is at best a second hand account (including mine - technically).  So without actual first hand knowledge from someone who had done it, perhaps we can hope that these are all just fantastical propagation of an urban legend.

However I don’t understand what the grounds for excommunication would be if it was a legal marriage. 

I realize that it is against the spirit of the law but not the letter of the law which is that sex is only between a man and woman legally and lawfully married. There is no requirement that I know if I’m how long the marriage must last. I suppose people could get married anywhere for the purpose of sex and stay together for a few weeks or months then get divorced. I don’t see how that could be a cause for church discipline if everything is legal. 

[Vort]

1 hour ago, BJ64 said:

However I don’t understand what the grounds for excommunication would be if it was a legal marriage.

If carnal mockery of our most sacred ordinances is not grounds for excommunication, what is?

[Grunt]

4 hours ago, Vort said:

If carnal mockery of our most sacred ordinances is not grounds for excommunication, what is?

I’m amazed at some of the attitudes members put up with.  I accept that I likely just don’t understand.  

[Midwest LDS]

7 hours ago, BJ64 said:

However I don’t understand what the grounds for excommunication would be if it was a legal marriage. 

I realize that it is against the spirit of the law but not the letter of the law which is that sex is only between a man and woman legally and lawfully married. There is no requirement that I know if I’m how long the marriage must last. I suppose people could get married anywhere for the purpose of sex and stay together for a few weeks or months then get divorced. I don’t see how that could be a cause for church discipline if everything is legal. 

I do. God will not be mocked. He is not a rules lawyer, who winks at sin and says something like "whoops you caught me in a techniclity, I guess that's not a serious sin." In many ways I would argue this would be worse than standard fornication because you made light of God's commandment and attempted to lie to him in the process. Definitely grounds for church discipline.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Midwest LDS

[BJ64]

53 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

I do. God will not be mocked. He is not a rules lawyer, who winks at sin and says something like "whoops you caught me in a techniclity, I guess that's not a serious sin." In many ways I would argue this would be worse than standard fornication because you made light of God's commandment and attempted to lie to him in the process. Definitely grounds for church discipline.

If my wife and I got divorced after thirty years of marriage would we be excommunicated because we were just married for sex? 

The only thing a man and a woman can’t do together without being married is have sex and children

Sex is a big reason anyone gets married. How long do you have to be married to count as a real marriage?

This story may just be an urban legend. Perhaps the excommunication part is also an urban legend. 

[Grunt]

27 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

If my wife and I got divorced after thirty years of marriage would we be excommunicated because we were just married for sex? 

The only thing a man and a woman can’t do together without being married is have sex and children

Sex is a big reason anyone gets married. How long do you have to be married to count as a real marriage?

This story may just be an urban legend. Perhaps the excommunication part is also an urban legend. 

You’re a wordsmith.  It amazes me the lengths you go to justify obviously inappropriate behavior.  

[Just_A_Guy]

58 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

If my wife and I got divorced after thirty years of marriage would we be excommunicated because we were just married for sex? 

The only thing a man and a woman can’t do together without being married is have sex and children

Sex is a big reason anyone gets married. How long do you have to be married to count as a real marriage?

This story may just be an urban legend. Perhaps the excommunication part is also an urban legend. 

I never met anyone who claimed to have done it when I was at BYU; but I clearly remember our Bishop telling us it would be grounds for church discipline.

One of the roles of my bishop is to analyze my carefully-constructed self-justifying argument, read the spirit of the situation, and then lovingly tell me that I’m full of crap.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, person0 said:

Sadly, a little internet research has resulted in my discovery of the following comments (neither of which I can substantiate beyond the poster's claims):

On a personal note, I met a missionary who served in KY.  He told me how one of his family members did this very thing (I can't recall if it was a brother or cousin).  However, in a positive turn of events, the couple decided to stay married and at that time had been married for at least a few years (I naturally assume they still are, but I have no way to confirm this).

Interestingly, every single one of these stories is at best a second hand account (including mine - technically).  So without actual first hand knowledge from someone who had done it, perhaps we can hope that these are all just fantastical propagation of an urban legend.

The one that says the annulment was in Vegas was lying.  That is only available for residents.  Not for someone who spent the weekend there.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Grunt said:

I’m amazed at some of the attitudes members put up with.  I accept that I likely just don’t understand.  

I don't either.  I hope we never do.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Vort said:

If carnal mockery of our most sacred ordinances is not grounds for excommunication, what is?

Indeed.  I can't think of any ordinance we hold more sacred than marriage.  It would be no different than partaking of the sacrament unworthily.  

Damnation to one's soul.

[Midwest LDS]

1 hour ago, BJ64 said:

If my wife and I got divorced after thirty years of marriage would we be excommunicated because we were just married for sex? 

The only thing a man and a woman can’t do together without being married is have sex and children

Sex is a big reason anyone gets married. How long do you have to be married to count as a real marriage?

This story may just be an urban legend. Perhaps the excommunication part is also an urban legend. 

While I agree this may just be an urban legend, I think most sins have been committed in one form or another by someone, somewhere. I think your missing the point though. In this scenario, this isn't just a case of people getting married because they want to have sex together. They are getting married, with no intention of staying married, in order to curcumvent God's Law of Chastity. That's what makes this sin especially repugnant. Trying to use a loophole to break the commandments is especially egregious. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Midwest LDS

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

 In this scenario, this isn't just a case of people getting married because they want to have sex together. They are getting married, with no intention of staying married, 

Exactly. That is what makes this particularly troubling.  

I really don't think it's a big problem though. Very, very very few kids will do this. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by MormonGator