Satan is just as important as God

[BJ64]

Would Eve have partaken of the forbidden fruit if Satan had not been there to tempt her?

[Vort]

27 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

Would Eve have partaken of the forbidden fruit if Satan had not been there to tempt her?

Yes, if the Father had bidden her to do so.

[theplains]

17 hours ago, person0 said:

They existed, which is opposite to not existing.

The premise was that opposition existed in all things like the Book of Mormon stated.  This makes sense when
one considers the two trees existed in the same moment so they can be said to be in opposition to each other. 
But the idea of an animal or plant being existent and non-existent in the same time context of the BOM verse
seems unlikely.  For example, an apple being in opposition to an orange when you have the choice is based on
them existing, not "existing and non-existing".

Thanks,
Jim 

[person0]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

The premise was that opposition existed in all things like the Book of Mormon stated.  This makes sense when
one considers the two trees existed in the same moment so they can be said to be in opposition to each other. 
But the idea of an animal or plant being existent and non-existent in the same time context of the BOM verse
seems unlikely.  For example, an apple being in opposition to an orange when you have the choice is based on
them existing, not "existing and non-existing".

Thanks,
Jim 

I was being facetious.  However, the understanding of opposition in all things only applies to two contexts: 1) Agency, 2) Existence.  The opposite of me is 'not me' (existence).  The opposite of light is darkness, which is the same as 'not light' (existence).  The fruits are not what were opposite to one another, what was opposite was the choice and the significance behind the choice (Agency).  The Book of Mormon clearly elaborates that without opposition:

Quote

". . . all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility." (2 Ne. 2:11)

Hence, the opposite of a plant or animal would be the the absence of that plant or animal.  This takes root in the LDS belief in creation ex-materia, namely, that there is nothing in existence which has not always existed in some form, and that there is nothing that will ever be brought into existence that did not already exist in some form.

[BJ64]

20 hours ago, Vort said:

Yes, if the Father had bidden her to do so.

He commanded her not to do so. If Satan had not tempted her to disobey then they might still be in the garden and we would not be here. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by BJ64

[Vort]

34 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

He commented her not to do so. If Satan had not tempted her to disobey then they might still be in the garden and we would not be here. 

If by "commented" you mean "commanded", then yes, your first sentence is correct. Your second sentence is speculative.

Can you give me any other scenario -- any scenario, any time, anywhere -- wherein we are expected to disobey the explicit commandments of God and instead hearken to the voice of Satan as the morally correct and justifiable course of action?

[wenglund]

On 7/16/2018 at 1:58 PM, theplains said:

What opposition did the plants and animals have in the Garden of Eden?

Thanks,
Jim

All the created order within the Garden was in opposition to the "chaos" and fallen existence  beyond the Garden. 

Even within the Garden there is opposition (though not necessarily diametric). For example, there were plants as opposed to animals. There may have been red roses as opposed to yellow roses. There is the space occupied by a given plant or animal as opposed to the space not occupied by that given plant or animal.

I could go on and on. However, I hope you get the point.

Most important , though, regarding plants, there were the fruit of the trees that were allowed to be eaten as opposed to the forbidden fruit.  As for animals, there was the snake that tempted Eve as opposed to the other animals that didn't.

Does that help?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

[theplains]

2 hours ago, wenglund said:

All the created order within the Garden was in opposition to the "chaos" and fallen existence  beyond the Garden. 

Thanks Wade.

What gives you the impression there was chaos and a fallen existence beyond the Garden before the Fall?

Jim

[BJ64]

From the teachings of Harold B. Lee. 

 

Now that is the way it ofttimes sounds, that the things that are forbidden are the things which are the most desirable, and the things that are right for us are sometimes pretty bitter pills for us to swallow, as we say. Now, in order to give man the chance to choose, “Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.” [2 Nephi 2:16.] Now to be an independent thinking individual, we had to have not only just the good but we had to have the evil in order that we could choose between the two. Now you think about that for a moment. If everything were good in the world and there were none evil, would you be able to choose anything but good? If everything were evil in the world, if there wasn’t any good to choose, could you choose anything else but evil? When you think about it for a moment, the only way there could be free agency in the individuals who live upon this earth is to have both the good and the bad and each one of us given the opportunity to choose for ourselves. … You see, free agency takes its chances. The Lord was willing to risk that in order that we might walk by faith and, as free, independent agents, choose the right.

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, BJ64 said:

From the teachings of Harold B. Lee. 

 

Now that is the way it ofttimes sounds, that the things that are forbidden are the things which are the most desirable, and the things that are right for us are sometimes pretty bitter pills for us to swallow, as we say. Now, in order to give man the chance to choose, “Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.” [2 Nephi 2:16.] Now to be an independent thinking individual, we had to have not only just the good but we had to have the evil in order that we could choose between the two. Now you think about that for a moment. If everything were good in the world and there were none evil, would you be able to choose anything but good? If everything were evil in the world, if there wasn’t any good to choose, could you choose anything else but evil? When you think about it for a moment, the only way there could be free agency in the individuals who live upon this earth is to have both the good and the bad and each one of us given the opportunity to choose for ourselves. … You see, free agency takes its chances. The Lord was willing to risk that in order that we might walk by faith and, as free, independent agents, choose the right.

I tend to disagree with the statement. Do the inhabitants of Zion that was taken up have agency?

[Traveler]

 

Satan is not necessary.  Lucifer was able to choose evil without Satan to guide him.  In essence, Evil is the natural course of things (which is pride and selfishness) - to obtain good and righteousness one has to first learn of and then choose the unusual and unnatural course of order and discipline with humility and sacrifice. 

 

The Traveler

[wenglund]

On 7/20/2018 at 1:56 PM, theplains said:

Thanks Wade.

What gives you the impression there was chaos and a fallen existence beyond the Garden before the Fall?

Jim

I get it from the creation narrative where the "beyond" is not only a function of time (before and after the creation of the earth and the Garden), but also a function of consciousness,  belief,  and knowledge, where the unknown--i.e. that which is beyond the walls of the "Garden," represents chaos, as likewise symbolized by the exodus from homelands to strange and foreign lands with Abraham and Moses and Lehi, etc. 

For a more detailed explanation, please see Dr. Jordon B. Peterson's highly informative online lecture series on The Psychological Significance of the Biblical Stories, particularly the first two lectures on  The Idea of God and Genesis 1: Chaos and Order. 

Chaos is also a constant force in our "telestial" or "fallen" existence--manifest in our material state as entropy, or the second law of thermal dynamics. Spiritually,  chaos is manifest in the forces of damnation and digression as opposed the the P;an of Progression.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[theplains]

19 hours ago, wenglund said:

I get it from the creation narrative where the "beyond" is not only a function of time (before and after the creation of the earth and the Garden), but also a function of consciousness,  belief,  and knowledge, where the unknown--i.e. that which is beyond the walls of the "Garden," represents chaos, as likewise symbolized by the exodus from homelands to strange and foreign lands with Abraham and Moses and Lehi, etc. 

I'm using the ESV for the following passages (... no particular reason).

Genesis 1:12 - "The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees
bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 

Verses 20-21 - "And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the
earth across the expanse of the heavens. So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that
moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And
God saw that it was good."

After this, God plants the garden (2:8).

Do you see chaos before God planted the garden in this creation narrative?

Thanks,
Jim

[wenglund]

On 7/23/2018 at 6:05 PM, theplains said:

I'm using the ESV for the following passages (... no particular reason).

Genesis 1:12 - "The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees
bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 

Verses 20-21 - "And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the
earth across the expanse of the heavens. So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that
moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And
God saw that it was good."

After this, God plants the garden (2:8).

Do you see chaos before God planted the garden in this creation narrative?

Thanks,
Jim

Yes, Using the KJV, see Genesis 1:2

"2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." 

I view the phrases "without form and void" as well as "darkness" and "deep" as indicative of chaos.  

The LDS endowment clarifies this further, though I shan't discuss it here. However, I found this in an old Ensign article regarding the Book of Enoch: 

"Slav. En. 11. Enoch went to the Lord who taught him all about the Creation and his works … He saw matter unorganized before the Creation … the Council in Heaven … He saw Satan Arouchaz aspire and get cast out to become the foundation of lower things, beyond which there is great darkness and nothing." (Highlight mine)

I view the phrase "matter unorganized" as indicative of chaos. I also view Satan as the chaotic/dark force that is opposed to the order/light of God.

Again, Dr. Jordan Peterson (see previous links) does a great job of clarifying all of this and tying it in to pre-biblical myths about Marduk (the god of order) and the Leviathan of the deep (one of the gods of chaos), and their ties to the biblical stories. (See also HERE and HERE and HERE)

He also ties the same into this (see HERE and HERE):

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by wenglund

[theplains]

7 hours ago, wenglund said:

Yes, Using the KJV, see Genesis 1:2

"2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." 

I view the phrases "without form and void" as well as "darkness" and "deep" as indicative of chaos.  

The LDS endowment clarifies this further, though I shan't discuss it here. However, I found this in an old Ensign article regarding the Book of Enoch: 

I view the phrase "matter unorganized" as indicative of chaos. I also view Satan as the chaotic/dark force that is opposed to the order/light of God.

 

 

Thanks. I see your rationale.

Jim