Begotten and born

[theplains]

Page 9 of Gospel Principles says, "Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in
the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body."

I'll include a link that answers this question from gotquestions.org

I understand the part about being born, but what does the term "begotten" mean in LDS theology since Jesus 
is called the Only Begotten of the Father in several scriptures (1 John 4:9) and then he is referred to as the first
begotten of the dead (Revelation 1:5)?

I couldn't find it defined on the LDS website https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/ or
https://www.lds.org/manual/true-to-the-faith?lang=eng

Thanks,
Jim

[LePeel]

Begotten denotes that Jesus is indeed the actual son of the Father, the Father's only begotten son in the flesh. I don't think it means any more than that. Alma 7:10 in Book of Mormon reads, "And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God." 

 

As for Revelation 1:5, it simply means Jesus was the first of the dead the to be resurrected. 2 Nephi 2:8 in the Book of Mormon reads, "Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise."

 

 

Edited August 4, 2018 by LePeel

[Jersey Boy]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Page 9 of Gospel Principles says, "Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in
the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body."

I'll include a link that answers this question from gotquestions.org

I understand the part about being born, but what does the term "begotten" mean in LDS theology since Jesus 
is called the Only Begotten of the Father in several scriptures (1 John 4:9) and then he is referred to as the first
begotten of the dead (Revelation 1:5)?

I couldn't find it defined on the LDS website https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/ or
https://www.lds.org/manual/true-to-the-faith?lang=eng

Thanks,
Jim

Go to LDS.org and you’ll see that when speaking of Christ the term Only Begotten refers to him being “the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh.” This has been taught by the leaders of the LDS Church since the early days of the restoration.

[Fether]

5 hours ago, theplains said:

Page 9 of Gospel Principles says, "Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in
the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body."

I'll include a link that answers this question from gotquestions.org

I understand the part about being born, but what does the term "begotten" mean in LDS theology since Jesus 
is called the Only Begotten of the Father in several scriptures (1 John 4:9) and then he is referred to as the first
begotten of the dead (Revelation 1:5)?

I couldn't find it defined on the LDS website https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/ or
https://www.lds.org/manual/true-to-the-faith?lang=eng

Thanks,
Jim

Christ was the only begotten IN THE FLESH. Were are all children of God, we were all begotten by him and heavenly mother in the spirit (otherwise why would we be referred to as “Children of God”.

Christ is without a doubt the first of God’s sons and the only begotten in the flesh.

[BJ64]

This is how I see it. The following is from Josephsmithfoundation.org

The Pearl of Great Price, New Testament, multiple First Presidency statements and numerous writings and teachings of the Presidents of the Church all declare that Adam, the first mortal man, was a physical son of God the Father. In fact this doctrine was declared by President Joseph Fielding Smith to be a fundamental doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This doctrine alone completely undermines the philosophies of Darwinian Evolution as far as LDS Church doctrine is concerned. Rather than man being the offspring of lower forms of life, man is in fact the son of the Highest and most Intelligent Being. The book of Luke simply declares while relating the physical genealogy of Adam:

“Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.” ^[1]

The book of Moses, revealed by direct revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith teaches similarly that:

“And this is the genealogy of the sons of Adam, who was the son of God, with whom God, himself, conversed.” ^[2]

 

The Prophet Abraham also knew of this truth. In discussing the physical lineage of those from whom the priesthood was passed in the beginning of this Earth, Abraham taught that Adam was both the “firstborn” and the “first father.”

“[The Priesthood] was conferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me.” ^[3]

Firstborn in this passage is lower-case distinguishing Adam, “a son of God” from the Son of God, Jesus Christ. It is clear that Adam was born, “not fashioned from earth like an adobe but begotten by his Father in Heaven” (see reference below). It is also clear that Adam was the first mortal parent, or first father. Adam means first father. First father in this case is also lower case to distinguish Adam, a mortal father, from the immortal First Father or our Father in Heaven. The passage also teaches that Adam was the “first man” meaning of course the first mortal man “from the beginning of time.”Adam is the firstborn signified with a lowercase f and the Savior is the Firstborn with an uppercase F. Adam was born a son of God without death on a paradisiacal earth. The Savior was born the Son of God on this mortal earth—the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh with the ability to die. Adam being the firstborn means what it says, the firstborn on this earth. He was begotten by the Father into this earth when it was in a paradisiacal state without physical pain, sickness, procreation, or death. Christ being the Firstborn has reference to His being the First One that was begotten as a Spirit Son of our Heavenly Father in the pre-mortal realm. That is separate and different (although related) from His being the Only Begotten in the Flesh. There are four different terms/concepts here with four different meanings:begotten son of God = Adam = his birth onto the paradisiacal earth.Only begotten Son in the Flesh = Jesus Christ = Only person Begotten of the Father into a fallen, flesh-status world (born of a mortal woman)firstborn = Adam = the first person to inherit a tangible body from the Father, as far as this earth is concerned (this is really the same as #1 above)Firstborn = The Savior = the first person to inherit a spirit body from the Father (this is NOT the same as #2 above)The scriptures teach that Adam was a son of God, not a son of pre-human not fully evolved life. While the above scriptures are very clear, President Joseph F. Smith and his counselors taught in a clarifying First Presidency Letter that:

“Our father Adam—that is our earthly father—the progenitor of the human race of man, stands at the head being ‘Michael the Archangel, the Ancient of Days,’ and…was not fashioned from earth like an adobe but begotten by his Father in Heaven.” — President Joseph F. Smith, President Anthon H. Lund, and President Charles W. Penrose. ^[4] [5]

Additionally, President Smith taught:

We did not spring from spawn. Our spirits existed from the beginning, have existed always, and will continue forever. We did not pass through the ordeals of embodiment in the lesser animals in order to reach the perfection to which we have attained in manhood and womanhood, in the image and likeness of God. God was and is our Father, and his children were begotten in the flesh of his own image and likeness, male and female. ^[6]

[BJ64]

7 hours ago, theplains said:

 

I'll include a link that answers this question from gotquestions.org

The answer in this link implies that Jesus is the only son of God and that everyone else is an adopted son of God. Which is not correct and it also implies that only Jesus inherited God’s divine nature which is also incorrect. 

From the site. This is what I disagree with. 

“John was primarily concerned with demonstrating that Jesus is the Son of God (John 20:31), and he uses monogenes to highlight Jesus as uniquely God's Son—sharing the same divine nature as God—as opposed to believers who are God's sons and daughters by adoption (Ephesians 1:5). Jesus is God’s “one and only” Son.”

Even the young women’s theme speaks of our divine nature. 

This response was written by someone who does not believe that we are literal children of God with the capability of becoming like Him and Jesus Christ. 

[LePeel]

1 hour ago, BJ64 said:

This doctrine alone completely undermines the philosophies of Darwinian Evolution as far as LDS Church doctrine is concerned.

If the human body was begotten of God then our DNA should be absolutely unique and alien to the rest of life on this planet, but it isn't. We share DNA with other life on this planet, including plants.

[BJ64]

8 minutes ago, LePeel said:

If the human body was begotten of God then our DNA should be absolutely unique and alien to the rest of life on this planet, but it isn't. We share DNA with other life on this planet, including plants.

How would you know that God’s DNA doesn’t share the same similarities?  I don’t think anyone has ever tested it. 

If the human body is not begotten of God then who is it begotten of?

[LePeel]

1 minute ago, BJ64 said:

How would you know that God’s DNA doesn’t share the same similarities?  I don’t think anyone has ever tested it. 

If the human body is not begotten of God then who is it begotten of?

If we speculate that God shares DNA with man, and since we know that man shares DNA with life on earth, this lends to the idea that God brought life from other worlds and seeded this empty planet with fully developed flora and fauna, and I just can't agree with that, and I don't think you agree with that either.

Then again, since DNA is basically a blue print, it very might be the only DNA arrangement for the human body in eternity and therefore God would have it. But I don't know how that would fit into evolution and natural selection.

I don't have to worry about these things because Adam's body was formed from the dust of the earth, and that's what every creation account says, Genesis, Moses, Abraham. And Joseph Smith never said it was incorrect and he was in an absolute position to do so if it was.

[bytebear]

I will speculate that one is born of the mother, and begotten by the father, in a general sense of the words.  So I think the phrase "born and begotten" means by a mother and father.  In the case of Jesus he was born of Mary, begotten by God the Father.

[BJ64]

24 minutes ago, bytebear said:

I will speculate that one is born of the mother, and begotten by the father, in a general sense of the words.  So I think the phrase "born and begotten" means by a mother and father.  In the case of Jesus he was born of Mary, begotten by God the Father.

I think you are exactly correct in your definitions. 

[BJ64]

39 minutes ago, LePeel said:

 

I don't have to worry about these things because Adam's body was formed from the dust of the earth, and that's what every creation account says, Genesis, Moses, Abraham. And Joseph Smith never said it was incorrect and he was in an absolute position to do so if it was.

“Our father Adam—that is our earthly father—the progenitor of the human race of man, stands at the head being ‘Michael the Archangel, the Ancient of Days,’ and…was not fashioned from earth like an adobe but begotten by his Father in Heaven.” — President Joseph F. Smith, President Anthon H. Lund, and President Charles W. Penrose. 

Edited August 5, 2018 by BJ64

[LePeel]

21 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

“Our father Adam—that is our earthly father—the progenitor of the human race of man, stands at the head being ‘Michael the Archangel, the Ancient of Days,’ and…was not fashioned from earth like an adobe but begotten by his Father in Heaven.” — President Joseph F. Smith, President Anthon H. Lund, and President Charles W. Penrose. 

How can Jesus be God's only begotten son in the flesh if Adam was also begotten in the flesh? Perhaps even more literally than Jesus, seeing as marry was over shadowed by the Holy Ghost?

EDIT: It just occurred to me. Why would Bringham young believe Adam is begotten of God in the context of Adam-God?

Edited August 5, 2018 by LePeel

[BJ64]

34 minutes ago, LePeel said:

How can Jesus be God's only begotten son in the flesh if Adam was also begotten in the flesh? Perhaps even more literally than Jesus, seeing as marry was over shadowed by the Holy Ghost?

That was explained in the commentary I quoted from earlier. Here it is again  

 

“Firstborn in this passage is lower-case distinguishing Adam, “a son of God” from the Son of God, Jesus Christ. It is clear that Adam was born, “not fashioned from earth like an adobe but begotten by his Father in Heaven” (see reference below). It is also clear that Adam was the first mortal parent, or first father. Adam means first father. First father in this case is also lower case to distinguish Adam, a mortal father, from the immortal First Father or our Father in Heaven. The passage also teaches that Adam was the “first man” meaning of course the first mortal man “from the beginning of time.”Adam is the firstborn signified with a lowercase f and the Savior is the Firstborn with an uppercase F. Adam was born a son of God without death on a paradisiacal earth. The Savior was born the Son of God on this mortal earth—the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh with the ability to die. Adam being the firstborn means what it says, the firstborn on this earth. He was begotten by the Father into this earth when it was in a paradisiacal state without physical pain, sickness, procreation, or death. Christ being the Firstborn has reference to His being the First One that was begotten as a Spirit Son of our Heavenly Father in the pre-mortal realm. That is separate and different (although related) from His being the Only Begotten in the Flesh. There are four different terms/concepts here with four different meanings:begotten son of God = Adam = his birth onto the paradisiacal earth.Only begotten Son in the Flesh = Jesus Christ = Only person Begotten of the Father into a fallen, flesh-status world (born of a mortal woman)firstborn = Adam = the first person to inherit a tangible body from the Father, as far as this earth is concerned (this is really the same as #1 above)Firstborn = The Savior = the first person to inherit a spirit body from the Father (this is NOT the same as #2 above)The scriptures teach that Adam was a son of God, not a son of pre-human not fully evolved life.”

[theplains]

19 hours ago, Fether said:

Christ was the only begotten IN THE FLESH.

I've heard that mentioned in an LDS training manual too.

“That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in
accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and, the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity,
celestial Sireship, and pure through mortal maternity, was of right to be called the Son of the Highest” (Religion
430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, p. 9). 

Thanks,
Jim

[anatess2]

On 8/4/2018 at 8:44 PM, LePeel said:

If we speculate that God shares DNA with man, and since we know that man shares DNA with life on earth, this lends to the idea that God brought life from other worlds and seeded this empty planet with fully developed flora and fauna, and I just can't agree with that, and I don't think you agree with that either.

The bolded doesn't have to follow the preceding phrase.

Spirits do not have to carry that same DNA with them throughout the entirety of the Plan of Salvation because, what we know for sure is that the Spirit joins the body (where observable DNA is present) and then leaves it at death.  So that DNA has no relation to the DNA of Spirit Body - whatever that DNA is that we share with the Father.

Edited August 6, 2018 by anatess2

[BJ64]

14 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

The bolded doesn't have to follow the preceding phrase.

Spirits do not have to carry that same DNA with them throughout the entirety of the Plan of Salvation because, what we know for sure is that the Spirit joins the body (where observable DNA is present) and then leaves it at death.  So that DNA has no relation to the DNA of Spirit Body - whatever that DNA is that we share with the Father.

In the discussion you quoted we were postulating that Adam and Eve are literal physical children born of our Heavenly Parents. In such a case the DNA of the parents, God and our Heavenly Mother, would pass to the offspring. 

[anatess2]

55 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

In the discussion you quoted we were postulating that Adam and Eve are literal physical children born of our Heavenly Parents. In such a case the DNA of the parents, God and our Heavenly Mother, would pass to the offspring. 

Both do not follow.

You can be LITERAL physical children born of Heavenly Parents and not have the same DNA as what is observable in mortal existence as our Heavenly Parents are not mortal and, therefore, being their physical offspring doesn't necessarily limit the process to what is observable in mortal existence.  To limit it to that is to say that Adam and Eve were born to MORTAL parents.

[CV75]

On 8/4/2018 at 11:44 AM, theplains said:

Page 9 of Gospel Principles says, "Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in
the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body."

I'll include a link that answers this question from gotquestions.org

I understand the part about being born, but what does the term "begotten" mean in LDS theology since Jesus 
is called the Only Begotten of the Father in several scriptures (1 John 4:9) and then he is referred to as the first
begotten of the dead (Revelation 1:5)?

I couldn't find it defined on the LDS website https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/ or
https://www.lds.org/manual/true-to-the-faith?lang=eng

Thanks,
Jim

Sometimes "begotten" means "procreated" and sometimes it means "generated" or "produced". The first is a temporal context and the second a spiritual context. The Old Testament uses it exclusively in the temporal sense, and the New Testament uses it mostly in the spiritual sense; where the New Testament quotes the Old Testament, it is used in the temporal sense.

[CV75]

On 8/4/2018 at 11:44 AM, theplains said:

I couldn't find it defined on the LDS website https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/ or
https://www.lds.org/manual/true-to-the-faith?lang=eng

Fixed it: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/begotten?lang=eng