This is distressing...

[Chilean]

14 hours ago, anatess2 said:

If you don't want anti-Mormons spouting falsehoods about the LDS Church, you can start by not spouting falsehoods about other Churches such as the Catholic Church.  "Pope Francisco brushed it off" is a false statement.  The Pope is not a dictator.  The Pope has a duty to Canon Law.  Pope Francis may be controversial in his non-European statements but he has not done anything yet against Canon Law.  So, I don't know how much of your paragraph to believe. 

I actually dont care what anti-mormons say against the church. Cause the truth will always prevail.  And about the Pope and his church, yes, they have covered up abuse for yeeears, moving priests from city to city to cover their abuses. Dont tell me that is not true, because it is the truth! abousing kids, and nuns... pleeeease! He, Pope Francis dismissed over and over again the claims against his pedophile priests! 

What happened in Chile is all over the news, and it's been for years, so please dont be so naive. I'm writing about what I do know, and I dont care about you believing it or not. Many, not all of them, but many catholic priests are evil, abusing nuns and little kids, are you kidding me??! and then covering it up, kicking nuns out of their nunnery for coming forward. That is pure evil, blaming the victims and dismissing their allegations. EVIL!

 

Quote: "Francis once again triggered outrage during his visit to Chile earlier this year. Just days after meeting the victims of abuse and apologizing to them in person, he emphatically dismissed accusations against Barros.

"The day I see proof against Bishop Barros, then I will talk. There is not a single piece of evidence against him," the pope told a reporter while still in Chile. "It is all slander. Is that clear?" 

Activists later came forward saying that they had provided such information directly to Francis' subordinates years earlier, receiving assurances at the time that they would be shown to the pontiff.

Upon returning to Rome, the pontiff partially backtracked from his comments, but maintained his belief that Barros was innocent. A renowned Vatican investigator was dispatched to Chile to collect evidence.

Last month, the pope abruptly changed course and expressed "shame" for his "grave errors in judgment" in the scandal. He also summoned Chilean bishops to the Vatican for a three-day summit this week.

Earlier today, a Chilean TV station published a 2,300-page report into abuse in Chile made by Vatican investigators. In the leaked document, Pope Francis himself slammed the clergy for failing to protect children or investigate abuse.

The pope said all of the bishops were to blame and "and me first of all."

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2018 by Chilean

[prisonchaplain]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

This is totally different than the televangelist scandals of the 80's. It's also a different world. 

Oh, but the similarities: a press hostile to conservative faith, a focus on immediate scandal with no greater context, and an impression created that condemns the many for the sins of a relative few. Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun. A more modern take: The more things change the more they remain the same.

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Chilean said:

I actually dont care what anti-mormons say against the church. Cause the truth will always prevail.  And about the Pope and his church, yes, they have covered up abuse for yeeears, moving priests from city to city to cover their abuses. Dont tell me that is not true, because it is the truth!

I already explained the Canon Law on this in my first posts on this thread.  

Sure, you say you don't care about anti-mormons.  You don't care about Joseph Bishop.  You don't care about Sam Young's hunger strike.  You don't care about all the attacks against the Church just for issuing a name preference.  Sure.  It's one thing to not care about people attacking your Church.  It's a completely different thing to be attacking other people's Churches with zero effort to understand what is going on.  Go to Reddit's /religion thread and read what they're saying about Bishops doing Youth interviews asking questions like "Did you orgasm"?  And you, currently, are doing exactly what these Redditors are doing except against the Catholic Church.

[anatess2]

29 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Oh, but the similarities: a press hostile to conservative faith, a focus on immediate scandal with no greater context, and an impression created that condemns the many for the sins of a relative few. Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun. A more modern take: The more things change the more they remain the same.

The actions of the US media has lately proven they don't do much of anything unless they have a narrative they want to push.  As evidence:  A Muslim extremist has been teaching children how to do mass school shootings in a compound in New Mexico.  The conditions inside the compound were squalid with emaciated children and the remains of a 3-year-old boy found.  This extremist is the son of one of the suspects in the 1993 WTC bombing.  He was put infront of a judge and summarily released on bail that he doesn't have to pay.  A few days later, police razed the compound to the ground destroying any evidence of what went on there.  Go do a search on this news story.  You will find that the US media largely ignored this story.

In my opinion, THE CURRENT SLEW OF ANTI-CATHOLIC PRESS ARTICLES HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE NOMINATION OF BRETT KAVANAUGH TO THE SCOTUS. 

The press is on a propaganda war to fan mass protests against him.  Kavanaugh is clean as a whistle.  The only thing they can hold on to is his Catholic faith.

Edited August 21, 2018 by anatess2

[anatess2]

15 hours ago, carlimac said:

I'm really not sure why you are so condescending toward me in all your post unless it's because I'm taking a critical view of your roots. None of my posts are pointed at you personally except where you seem to deny what I have read out there. 

I am not anti-Catholic. I am pro-protect children, especially in vulnerable situations.

I respond the exact same way to people like Sam Young.

And this is why my frustration shows through.  I spend time explaining these things from the Catholic perspective writing a novella about it and you conclude with "you seem to deny what I have read out there". 

Just like you, I am pro-protect children.  I also have the equal desire for man's eternal salvation.  I recognize efforts of large organizations to do all these things even when standing infront of pitchforks.  It is sad to me that well-meaning people treat the Catholic Church as if they are not pro-protect children in their desire to bring people to salvation.

Edited August 21, 2018 by anatess2

[prisonchaplain]

@anatess2 I vaguely recall seeing snippets about the New Mexico incident--with no mention of Muslim extremist training. The way you connect the heavy focus on the child molestation/cover-up scandals in the Catholic Church to the Kavanaugh nomination is an angle I had not considered. Your arguments are compelling. At minimum, the SCOTUS nomination fuels these stories. They would make the news anyway, but the combination guarantees their front-page placement.

[anatess2]

13 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

@anatess2 I vaguely recall seeing snippets about the New Mexico incident--with no mention of Muslim extremist training. The way you connect the heavy focus on the child molestation/cover-up scandals in the Catholic Church to the Kavanaugh nomination is an angle I had not considered. Your arguments are compelling. At minimum, the SCOTUS nomination fuels these stories. They would make the news anyway, but the combination guarantees their front-page placement.

The state of the US media:

Edited August 21, 2018 by anatess2

[carlimac]

54 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Oh, but the similarities: a press hostile to conservative faith, a focus on immediate scandal with no greater context, and an impression created that condemns the many for the sins of a relative few. Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun. A more modern take: The more things change the more they remain the same.

I have to disagree with you here. My first question is - What IS the greater context in this scandal? Is seems to me that there has been a pattern of this happening, not only in PA but in many different locations over the years and centuries. That greater context isn't necessarily very flattering or helpful. Why does this keep coming up in the news? Why aren't other churches plagued by this evil at this level. It may be only a tiny percentage of all priests who have ever been involved in this but the story does seem to repeat itself every 5 years or so with very similar characteristics.  

that being said, I don't know about the rest of humanity reading about this, but I'm not going to assume this is happening in every state of the country or even in every country and consider every Catholic a victim.  I think most people are able to get their heads around this without throwing the baby out with the bath water.

One more thing- not all of the press is hostile to conservative faith. 

[anatess2]

6 minutes ago, carlimac said:

One more thing- not all of the press is hostile to conservative faith. 

This is not about conservative faith.  This is about the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church, like the Muslim faith worldwide, is a huge voting bloc.  The Church can, therefore, be used for or against any propaganda effort on a global scale.

Edited August 21, 2018 by anatess2

[carlimac]

36 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I respond the exact same way to people like Sam Young.

And this is why my frustration shows through.  I spend time explaining these things from the Catholic perspective writing a novella about it and you conclude with "you seem to deny what I have read out there". 

Just like you, I am pro-protect children.  I also have the equal desire for man's eternal salvation.  I recognize efforts of large organizations to do all these things even when standing infront of pitchforks.  It is sad to me that well-meaning people treat the Catholic Church as if they are not pro-protect children in their desire to bring people to salvation.

I do appreciate the information you wrote. It was helpful to be educated. My observation though, is that some leaders haven't been following Canon Law completely when they have been simply shuffling the abusers around. I know this isn't happening in every case, but it has in some.  Why would they do that?

And you did deny what I said I have read. And you denied Chilean's experience and knowledge. 

 

 

[anatess2]

Just now, carlimac said:

I do appreciate the information you wrote. It was helpful to be educated. My observation though, is that some leaders haven't been following Canon Law completely when they have been simply shuffling the abusers around. I know this isn't happening in every case, but it has in some.  Why would they do that?

I already explained to you Canon Law and why priests get moved.  Just because they are moved doesn't mean they are given access to the public.  Those that do get access to the public has been through Canon investigation, the repentance process, and deemed worthy to serve.  In the same manner that child molesters released from the American prison system after time served commit the same crime again, priests released from sequestration can possibly commit the same crime again.  Unless you think all child molesters should be sent to prison/sequestration and the key forever thrown away, then this shouldn't surprise you.

 

Just now, carlimac said:

And you did deny what I said I have read. And you denied Chilean's experience and knowledge. 

Context.  I dismissed Chilean's experience after he stated a falsehood about Pope Francis.  I told him that falsehood makes the rest of his statements suspect.

 

[carlimac]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

This is not about conservative faith.  This is about the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church, like the Muslim faith worldwide, is a huge voting bloc.  The Church can, therefore, be used for or against any propaganda effort.

"conservative faith" were PC's words

49 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

The actions of the US media has lately proven they don't do much of anything unless they have a narrative they want to push.  As evidence:  A Muslim extremist has been teaching children how to do mass school shootings in a compound in New Mexico.  The conditions inside the compound were squalid with emaciated children and the remains of a 3-year-old boy found.  This extremist is the son of one of the suspects in the 1993 WTC bombing.  He was put infront of a judge and summarily released on bail that he doesn't have to pay.  A few days later, police razed the compound to the ground destroying any evidence of what went on there.  Go do a search on this news story.  You will find that the US media largely ignored this story.

In my opinion, THE CURRENT SLEW OF ANTI-CATHOLIC PRESS ARTICLES HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE NOMINATION OF BRETT KAVANAUGH TO THE SCOTUS. 

The press is on a propaganda war to fan mass protests against him.  Kavanaugh is clean as a whistle.  The only thing they can hold on to is his Catholic faith.

The New Mexico thing was outrageous!  I don't know about other news outlets but Fox was all over it.  I don't think we've heard the end of it yet. 

 

OK, propaganda is possible I guess but do you know that the results of the Grand Jury investigation were timed to come out coinciding perfectly with when Kavanaugh is under review? Or is that just coincidence?

[prisonchaplain]

7 minutes ago, carlimac said:

I have to disagree with you here. My first question is - What IS the greater context in this scandal? Is seems to me that there has been a pattern of this happening, not only in PA but in many different locations over the years and centuries. That greater context isn't necessarily very flattering or helpful. Why does this keep coming up in the news? Why aren't other churches plagued by this evil at this level. It may be only a tiny percentage of all priests who have ever been involved in this but the story does seem to repeat itself every 5 years or so with very similar characteristics.  

 

The greater context is that a church with 1.2 billion people and 420,000 priests is huge, and its rate of child molestations and cover-ups may or may not be any greater than that of other religious or educational groups. We do not know that because the press does not tell us. Instead, we get the juicy details delivered up, sometimes just because, and perhaps this time because Kavanaugh is Catholic. Is it really impossible to believe that a press that filed FOIA requests on Kavanaugh's wife, for all communications related to her service as a clerk for a 2,000-person enclave, wouldn't hype up Catholic child molestation cases on the brink of his nomination hearings?

[estradling75]

8 minutes ago, carlimac said:

I have to disagree with you here. My first question is - What IS the greater context in this scandal? Is seems to me that there has been a pattern of this happening, not only in PA but in many different locations over the years and centuries. That greater context isn't necessarily very flattering or helpful. Why does this keep coming up in the news? Why aren't other churches plagued by this evil at this level. It may be only a tiny percentage of all priests who have ever been involved in this but the story does seem to repeat itself every 5 years or so with very similar characteristics. 

The greater context is... It is made up of flawed human beings.  Like all other organizations are.  So when the media wants to do a hit piece on an organization all they have to do is find flawed humans doing flawed things.  Then they trot them out as the norm, as the culture, as something to blot out all other things, so you do not hear about the good it does,  about the faithful and hard working that are helping people day in an day out.

This is not just the way it works for the Catholic church, it used against any and all.  Because scandal sells.

 

[carlimac]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

I already explained to you Canon Law and why priests get moved.  Just because they are moved doesn't mean they are given access to the public.  Those that do get access to the public has been through Canon investigation, the repentance process, and deemed worthy to serve.  In the same manner that child molesters released from the American prison system after time served commit the same crime again, priests released from sequestration can possibly commit the same crime again.  Unless you think all child molesters should be sent to prison/sequestration and the key forever thrown away, then this shouldn't surprise you.

 

Context.  I dismissed Chilean's experience after he stated a falsehood about Pope Francis.  I told him that falsehood makes the rest of his statements suspect.

 

OK whatever. This isn't worth the argument. I will keep my conclusions to myself. 

[prisonchaplain]

1 minute ago, carlimac said:

"conservative faith" were PC's words

 

And I stand by them. If Kavanaugh were Pentecostal the front pages would be all over the latest televangelists who are raising money for their fancy jets.

[anatess2]

Just now, carlimac said:

"conservative faith" were PC's words

And I'm correcting him too.

Just now, carlimac said:

OK, propaganda is possible I guess but do you know that the results of the Grand Jury investigation were timed to come out coinciding perfectly with when Kavanaugh is under review? Or is that just coincidence?

It is not about the investigation timed.  It's about the news story focus timed.  Just like the "children separated at the border" has been going on forever but the news story focus was timed to produce the outrage it did at exactly that time.

 

[carlimac]

3 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

The greater context is that a church with 1.2 billion people and 420,000 priests is huge, and its rate of child molestations and cover-ups may or may not be any greater than that of other religious or educational groups. We do not know that because the press does not tell us. Instead, we get the juicy details delivered up, sometimes just because, and perhaps this time because Kavanaugh is Catholic. Is it really impossible to believe that a press that filed FOIA requests on Kavanaugh's wife, for all communications related to her service as a clerk for a 2,000-person enclave, wouldn't hype up Catholic child molestation cases on the brink of his nomination hearings?

FOIA requests are not unusual. I hear about it. Someone very close to me works there. 

[carlimac]

5 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

The greater context is... It is made up of flawed human beings.  Like all other organizations are.  So when the media wants to do a hit piece on an organization all they have to do is find flawed humans doing flawed things.  Then they trot them out as the norm, as the culture, as something to blot out all other things, so you do not hear about the good it does,  about the faithful and hard working that are helping people day in an day out.

This is not just the way it works for the Catholic church, it used against any and all.  Because scandal sells.

 

So do you think the media shouldn't be reporting on this right now when it's happening? Maybe wait 6 months or so? 

[estradling75]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

It is not about the investigation timed.  It's about the news story focus timed.  Just like the "children separated at the border" has been going on forever but the news story focus was timed to produce the outrage it did at exactly that time.

Exactly... I'll give an example.  I grew up in Arizona...  The desert at the border is harsh and unforgiving..  People would cross illegally and some times either through betrayal of their guides, poor planning, or just bad luck,  end up dying in the desert heat.  It happened reasonably regularly to men, women, and yes children.  And No ONE cared.  There might be a blip on the news that border patrol found some bodies... or they found someone 'just' in time and that was it.

But now we are all for keeping 'families together' and we get detailed stories of kids being traumatized because they are separated..  But still no one cares about the kids that are literally dying.  Or about the trauma of the kids that survived after watching their parent(s) die.  Because you can't blame death in the desert on someone and score political points.

 

5 minutes ago, carlimac said:

So do you think the media shouldn't be reporting on this right now when it's happening? Maybe wait 6 months or so? 

See above.   If the media was the unbiased investigate source everyone likes to say it is... They would still be reporting on the Catholic issue, but there would be so many other scandals that they would also be covering that the Catholic issue would be but a drop in the bucket.

 

[anatess2]

5 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

See above.   If the media was the unbiased investigate source everyone likes to say it is... They would still be reporting on the Catholic issue, but there would be so many other scandals that they would also be covering that the Catholic issue would be but a drop in the bucket.

Hence providing the proper perspective.

[anatess2]

25 minutes ago, carlimac said:

OK whatever. This isn't worth the argument. I will keep my conclusions to myself. 

Argument?  You were outraged at something you didn't understand, I helped you understand and you call it an argument.  I guess that's why it was frustrating on my end.

This is how it looks like from my end (ridiculous example meant to convey meme-like humor not meme-like snark) - "They sky is orange!  It is not supposed to be orange!  It's supposed to be blue!", "It's orange because it's sunset.", "You're denying that it's orange!", "I gave you a lengthy explanation." "You're arguing with me."

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

Oh, but the similarities: a press hostile to conservative faith, a focus on immediate scandal with no greater context, and an impression created that condemns the many for the sins of a relative few. Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun. A more modern take: The more things change the more they remain the same.

The population is more jaded and less religious than it was almost 40 years ago in the 1980's. The problems that effected the Evangelical community could be more easily absorbed by those communities strictly because of numbers. Next, the media was totally different back then. Was it hostile to faith? Sure, still is. Now though, with social media and the internet, the news is far more accessible and you can't avoid it, even if you wanted too. The situations are vastly different. 

[anatess2]

32 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

And I stand by them. If Kavanaugh were Pentecostal the front pages would be all over the latest televangelists who are raising money for their fancy jets.

Islam is so conservative it's downright authoritarian.  If you're talking about the membership, Catholics are currently more liberal than conservative and socialist especially with Pope Francis at the helm.  I don't think you mean conservative faith.  I think you mean - the faith currently useful for the socio-political narrative of the day.

[carlimac]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I already explained to you Canon Law and why priests get moved.  Just because they are moved doesn't mean they are given access to the public.  Those that do get access to the public has been through Canon investigation, the repentance process, and deemed worthy to serve.  In the same manner that child molesters released from the American prison system after time served commit the same crime again, priests released from sequestration can possibly commit the same crime again.  Unless you think all child molesters should be sent to prison/sequestration and the key forever thrown away, then this shouldn't surprise you.

 

Context.  I dismissed Chilean's experience after he stated a falsehood about Pope Francis.  I told him that falsehood makes the rest of his statements suspect.

 

I think I know what's going on here. God bless you anatess. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by carlimac