Are We Required To Follow?

[sixpacktr]

Someone asked me the question I posed. So rather than give them an answer from me, i wanted more opinions.

I love discussion. I love learning this way. Now i think i might understand their point of vie a little better.

fair enuf...

[Canuck Mormon]

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Leaders can be called of God but they are still human and can make mistakes. Can you imagine a situation six where a leader might be wrong and the admonitions of the spirit are trying desperately to tell you so, but your hardwiring is so welded together nothings getting through? Is it possible to be so conditioned in following a certain ideology you loose the ability for common sense?

M.

Hi Mo,

You keep dealing with extreme fringes. If my Bishop told me to go rob a bank to pay my bills, then yes, I'd be a tad concerned and probably wouldn't follow him. If he got up on the pulpit and said that from now on those that drank coke could no longer have a TR, I'd speak with him privately and ask him to show me where the church said you can't do that. However, I wouldn't publicly embarrass him or talk behind his back that he was nuts, etc.

The example was basically if we'd follow a leader down to hell. No, I wouldn't. But when the Bishop gives someone an assignment, or a calling, or anything else, then I believe we should obey.

There seems to be this spirit of seeing how close to the edge we can get before we are being disobedient, or better yet, 'still righteous'. To me, the spiirt is going to tell you 999 times out of 1000 that the Bishop, or SP, or Prophet, is right and that we are to obey. That 1 time in 1000? If the spirit told me strongly don't do it, then I'd tell the Bishop what I had been told, and ask him to explain why he feels it is important for me to do whatever. And if his explanation makes sense, and I don't feel that it will jeopardize my standing with my HF, then I will do it. Again, I too can believe the wrong thing just as much as that man can.

I guess I get back to the mantle that Bishop's receive when called. I honor that office, and recognize that man as my spiritual leader for the amount of time he has that calling. I don't get to 'pick and choose' what I'll believe or disbelieve. And all of the men I have served with while in Bishoprics, or as EQP, or as YMP, etc., were honorable, upright men that would NEVER tell anyone something that they didn't need to hear. They were humble men that did the absolute best that they could, and got enough harping from those in the ward that had the same spirit as prevails to some extent on this board, always a 'how dare you tell me something I don't want to hear' attitude.

It seems that too often people want to make hypotheticals on 'when this or this happens, I'll tell him to go to hell because he is out of the way' instead of an attitude of 'I'll support my leaders as best I can, and not add to the burden they bear, and get confirmation that what they are telling me is correct'.

Blind obedience was never in the cards in HF's plan. Praying about what we have been told or taught, gaining our own testimony of that, and then acting accordingly? Yes, that is exactly what we are commanded to do.

Why this hang up on trying to determine if a leader is leading us in wrong paths?

Very well said. I agree 100%. I am one of those that will believe my leaders and do as I am told, unless I have a very strong impression that something is wrong. Then I will discuss it with my Bishop.

[onyx]

I had a very wise Stake President a few years back who gave me a blessing.

During the course of the blessing, he said some surprising things.

I remained open-minded throughout however, willing to contemplate these unusual possibilities.

At the end of the blessing, he turned to my husband and I and gave us wise counsel.

He told us to go away and pray about what had been suggested in the blessing.

He cautioned us to receive our own confirmation.

We certainly did as he counselled - we prayed and contemplated and prayed.

We did not receive confirmation and so did not proceed.

Was he wrong in the things he had said in the belssing?

I do not believe so; I think he was 'spot' on in fact.

The surprising things said in the blessing were never fulfilled.

Instead, contemplating and praying about them took us to a place where we considered other pathways.

Without the blessing and the things said therein, we would not have gone down the path we did.

The blessing served as a catalyst to propel us toward pathways that were not in our mindset at the time.

I would go so far as to say that we were locked into certain paradigms that the blessing cleared.

Consequently, we contemplated things that we thought were beyond us, all because of the blessing that triggered new possibilities.

I know this may seem off topic because the Stake President did not exercise any kind of unrighteous dominion in my view.

I share this story to present to you an example of a leader who knew that we are all entitled to our own witness and our own confirmation.

This is so with any directive, counsel or advice - pray about it and receive your own witness.

Onyx

[Maureen]

...You keep dealing with extreme fringes. If my Bishop told me to go rob a bank to pay my bills, then yes, I'd be a tad concerned and probably wouldn't follow him. If he got up on the pulpit and said that from now on those that drank coke could no longer have a TR, I'd speak with him privately and ask him to show me where the church said you can't do that. However, I wouldn't publicly embarrass him or talk behind his back that he was nuts, etc.

The example was basically if we'd follow a leader down to hell. No, I wouldn't. But when the Bishop gives someone an assignment, or a calling, or anything else, then I believe we should obey.

There seems to be this spirit of seeing how close to the edge we can get before we are being disobedient, or better yet, 'still righteous'. To me, the spiirt is going to tell you 999 times out of 1000 that the Bishop, or SP, or Prophet, is right and that we are to obey. That 1 time in 1000? If the spirit told me strongly don't do it, then I'd tell the Bishop what I had been told, and ask him to explain why he feels it is important for me to do whatever. And if his explanation makes sense, and I don't feel that it will jeopardize my standing with my HF, then I will do it. Again, I too can believe the wrong thing just as much as that man can.

I guess I get back to the mantle that Bishop's receive when called. I honor that office, and recognize that man as my spiritual leader for the amount of time he has that calling. I don't get to 'pick and choose' what I'll believe or disbelieve. And all of the men I have served with while in Bishoprics, or as EQP, or as YMP, etc., were honorable, upright men that would NEVER tell anyone something that they didn't need to hear. They were humble men that did the absolute best that they could, and got enough harping from those in the ward that had the same spirit as prevails to some extent on this board, always a 'how dare you tell me something I don't want to hear' attitude.

It seems that too often people want to make hypotheticals on 'when this or this happens, I'll tell him to go to hell because he is out of the way' instead of an attitude of 'I'll support my leaders as best I can, and not add to the burden they bear, and get confirmation that what they are telling me is correct'.

Blind obedience was never in the cards in HF's plan. Praying about what we have been told or taught, gaining our own testimony of that, and then acting accordingly? Yes, that is exactly what we are commanded to do.

Why this hang up on trying to determine if a leader is leading us in wrong paths?

Thanks six for your more specific feelings toward following leaders. My concerns weren't really about a bad leader but more about a gullible follower. In this thread and other threads you were giving me the impression that maybe you were the "brainwashed" type and more than that you were quite content being so. But now you've explained yourself more clearly and I can see that common sense still does play a part in your decisions.

M. :)

[a-train]

I cannot imagine God would condemn someone under his stewardship who is affected by this.

This is the sum and substance to my view. If a father uses unruly or unrighteous means to lead his children, they will be blessed for their obedience regardless of their treatments and any sin will be upon the father's head. However, if the children rebel and fight against their father, they do it at the risk of their standing with the LORD.

God is not so backwards that He gives us leaders and then has us guessing at every turn whether they are leading us right or not. If, in the event we are lead unrighteously, our obedience will not go unrewarded, and any unrighteousness on the part of our leader will not go uncorrected. If this were not the case, then what stewardship do these leaders have if they are not held accountable as stewards?

-a-train

[tiancum]

At what point does a parents stewardship end? are we to obey a meddling mother or father when they tell us what to do with our children??

[a-train]

At what point does a parents stewardship end? are we to obey a meddling mother or father when they tell us what to do with our children??

Of course not, they do not have stewardship over us our children. Or do you mean, our parents, the grandparents of our children? In that case, we still are not under their stewardship if we are no longer in their home. Perhaps that can get more tricky depending on the structure of the given family and their relationship. But I would say that when we are the elders and parents in our home, we have stewardship over the household.

-a-train

[Annabelli]

What has not been discussed is the fact that we know these priesthood holders who are called as Bishops. Can we distinguish our knowledge of them on a personal basis and their ability or worthiness to act as a Bishop? How often have you served a calling with someone who is then called as a Bishop?

Have you been concerned about someone's testimony of the gospel and then witnessed his calling as a Bishop.

Have you ever disassociated with a member because their dealings in the priesthood were unethical and then witnessed them being called to be a Bishop?

Our Bishops are not strangers.

If so&so were ever called as a Bishop would I ever confide anything personal and would I seek his counsel?

A member who has disrespected me and is called as a Bishop; would I honor his calling?

There are members so discouraged with Bishop callings that they simply go home. There is not a man amongst us who would please us all.

I am sure that there are men who pray "I'm a cheat and a liar. Why hast thou called me to be a Bishop?"

[tiancum]

Have you ever disassociated with a member because their dealings in the priesthood were unethical and then witnessed them being called to be a Bishop?

No, not dissociated. But I have seen people who were dishonest, abusers, etc. be called to positions of leadership. Sometimes they change, and it's beautiful to watch.

I am sure that there are men who pray "I'm a cheat and a liar. Why hast thou called me to be a Bishop?"

I assure you, there are NOT many who say this. This is uncharacteristic of a person who is a cheat and a Liar. In order to become a liar, you have to lie first to yourself.

I always wonder why the Lord calls those he calls but within a couple of years, I see why, at least in part. Some rise to the challenge, and learn and grow, and some don't. It is a beautiful process. There was once when a leader realy went off the deep end. Within a week he was released from his calling.

it's not my place to council the Lord.

[sixpacktr]

it's not my place to council the Lord.

Very well put. I would put it forth as my opinion that 99 times out of 100 the calling is issued to help the callee rather than those over which s/he has a stewardship. While it is true that as the mantle settles on that person they are able to help those over which they have responsibility, it is equally true, as Tiancum so eloquently put it, that the person with the calling changes and becomes more Christlike as they learn new skills and new dimensions of themselves. And that in turn gives them empathy and the ability to stand in the place of the Lord and help those that need it, whatever it may be.

[Gwen]

the mantle of a calling only extends so far. when a leader gives council outside of that mantle are you required to follow? if you think the answer to the problem is just the oposite of what they have counseled you to do is it wrong to say, thank for your opinion but this decision is outside of your mantle of responsibility and i feel inspired to take a different action.

fyi, i don't think you are required to follow, i think in the end you will be blessed if you do follow your leaders. but that will take time and may be the hard way around. (in my opinion it runs very close to blind obediance.) you will not be punished for not following, in fact the issue may be more quickly resolved if you follow your personal revelation rather than the counsel they gave outside of their mantle of responsiblility.

[Annabelli]

1 Cor. 1:26-31

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him aglory in the Lord.

[CrimsonKairos]

I visited recently with my dad's cousin, who was a bishop for 7 years or so. I was talking to him about his experiences in general (this was before this thread even started, so I wasn't asking him about this particular issue).

Anyway, his experiences were that too many people wanted him to tell them what to do in every situation, i.e. outside his mantle even. For example, a ward member would call him at 2 AM asking him what color the guy should paint his bedroom. Or what color car to buy. Or other members would ask him what his favorite brand of this or that was, as if his opinion was better because he was a bishop. He said he always disliked when people did that.

So I think it's more often the case that members prompt their bishops to go "beyond the mantle" than the majority of bishops going beyond their mantle on their own, y'know?

If my bishop ever told me what color car to buy, I'd probably laugh and thank him for the advice. B)

If I ever asked my bishop what color car to buy, I'd probably punch myself in the eye and return to sanity.

[Elphaba]

This is the sum and substance to my view. If a father uses unruly or unrighteous means to lead his children, they will be blessed for their obedience regardless of their treatments and any sin will be upon the father's head. However, if the children rebel and fight against their father, they do it at the risk of their standing with the LORD.

Hi a,

I can't help feel we're talking about two different things, yet when I read your words, I'm not convinced.

Let's say a child has parents who are "unruly or unrighteouss." I'm still not sure what you mean about that. I don't know if you mean difficult, or outright abusive. So, I'm going to opt for somewhere in the middle.

Here is a child who is constantly in a state of stress because she has parents (stewards) who are unruly and unrighteous, and she must, on her own, figure out how to survive in this enironment. So imagine if she is then asked, after each incident of bad behavior on her parent's part, to "turn the other cheek"? The problem is she has no idea what that means, other than she must have done something really bad because she is being punished.

To explain, a child's brain goes through cognitive developmental stages as she grows up, and doesn't stop developing until around the age of 25.

So when you speak of children "turning the other cheek," that is not a choice a child can make. Their little brains do not comprehend what that means like an adult's brain does. It is wrong to expect them to do so.

In fact, telling them to do so, if done so often as they are growing up in an unruly home, only teaches them poor coping skills. Rather than teaching them how to express what they're feeling, which is the beginning of their learning to be assertive adults, "turning the other cheek" teaches them it they are bad and being punished, or that is better to hide their feelings. These are learned behaviors that stay with them all of their lives.

The day will come when she is cognitively developed enough that she can comprehend the concept of "turning the other cheek." The parent would know best, and I would guestimate around the early teens. Then you can explain it to her and how to apply it. But if she is NOT READY, it could teach a poor lesson, with a harmful message, rather than the lesson of compassion that was wanted in the first place.

Additionally, a, I can't help but think of abused children when I read your words. Is this part of your "unrighteouss and unruly" as well? If so, do you seriously expect children to "turn the other cheek" in this environment? Even Church officials, including President Hinckly do not agree with that.

God is not so backwards that He gives us leaders and then has us guessing at every turn whether they are leading us right or not. If, in the event we are lead unrighteously, our obedience will not go unrewarded, and any unrighteousness on the part of our leader will not go uncorrected. If this were not the case, then what stewardship do these leaders have if they are not held accountable as stewards?

As far as parents' stewardships are concerned, God gives millions of children parents who leave their children guessing at every turn whether they are leading them right or not, and the havoc it creates causes great trauma to developing children.

Sorry for repeating myself, but an adult has the ability to choose to turn the other cheek if he believes a bishop is not acting righteously, because the adult comprehends what "turning the other cheek" means.

A child does not, because the child does not comprehend what he is really doing.They are two completely different dynamics. And forcing a child to do this, on a regular basis, throughout his developmental years, will cause him more harm that good.

A, if I this is not what you meant by "unrighteouss and unruly," please let me know as I seriously do not want to misrepresent what you mean.

Elphaba

[Alaskagain]

A child knows what "I'm sorry" means. A child knows very basic emotions - happy/sad; safe/not safe. Very generally speaking, even an abused child wants nothing more than to feel loved by his or her parents, and they are very quick to forgive sorrowful parents and give them another chance to prove they can be good parents. Children "turn the other cheek" without knowing what it means.

[Palerider]

I visited recently with my dad's cousin, who was a bishop for 7 years or so. I was talking to him about his experiences in general (this was before this thread even started, so I wasn't asking him about this particular issue).

Anyway, his experiences were that too many people wanted him to tell them what to do in every situation, i.e. outside his mantle even. For example, a ward member would call him at 2 AM asking him what color the guy should paint his bedroom. Or what color car to buy. Or other members would ask him what his favorite brand of this or that was, as if his opinion was better because he was a bishop. He said he always disliked when people did that.

So I think it's more often the case that members prompt their bishops to go "beyond the mantle" than the majority of bishops going beyond their mantle on their own, y'know?

If my bishop ever told me what color car to buy, I'd probably laugh and thank him for the advice. B)

If I ever asked my bishop what color car to buy, I'd probably punch myself in the eye and return to sanity.

you would be surprised by the amount of stupid questions you get.......

[a-train]

Elph,

Were you abused growing up?

-a-train