Flesh & Bone <—> Flesh & Blood?

[CV75]

8 hours ago, mikbone said:

My point is that some comentaries claim that Mahonri sees Jehovah’s spirit.

Whereas the text is actually describing a body of flesh and bone.

MC had faith that the Lord had a finger (of some kind, but not flesh and blood, contributing to his awe – verse 😎 with which he could touch stones (verse 4). Moroni reports that the Lord used this finger (of some kind) to touch the stones (verse 6) and that it looked like flesh and blood to MC’s presumably quickened eye.

He also reports that MC was struck with fear, seemingly because a) he did not expect to see the Lord’s finger at all (no matter how he previously conceptualized it) and b) he saw something different than what he previously conceptualized. We do not know exactly how MC conceptualized it.

The Lord confirms that His body is not of flesh and blood, (and no one says anything about a body of flesh and bone) but that it will be (verse 9). If at that point He was to yet take upon Himself flesh and blood, then what was the composition His Being at that time?

Option 1: As you propose, His “Self” (“myself” / “himself”) – was composed/comprised of inseparably connected spirit and element (immortal flesh and bone), and that an inseparably connected person can be “added upon” with separably connected mortal flesh and blood.

Option 2: His body was composed of spirit (as indicated in D&C 93: 9, 11, 26), and before the beginning of the world God stood among those that were spirits, including the one among them that was like unto Him (Abraham 3: 23-27), which spirits can be added upon in mortality with a body that is physically perceived with non-quickened senses at the telestial level.

[Traveler]

On 1/12/2019 at 12:22 PM, mikbone said:

I don't think that it was transgression.  If so, what does the fruit of the tree of life represent, obedience?  And if so, why would He create a barrier (cherubim and a flaming sword) to prevent Adam from partaking obedience?  

Also why is the transposition of the fruit of ToKoG&E and ToG&E contrasted in Moses, Alma 12 & Alma 42?

Trees and their fruit are used symbolically in scripture.  The Tree of Life symbolism appears in the Eden epoch as well as Lehi's dream.  So also "Cherubim" is symbolism.  It is important to note that "Cherubim" is the plural for Cherub.  The symbolism of Cherubim is always two in opposition.  The flaming sword is another interesting symbol - Where else do we encounter a being with a sword and fire - as it pertains to our eternal salvation?  For those that find where else this symbol is used they will find important insight to symbolism in scripture.

I would say one other thing about the Cherubim of Eden - They were not a "barrier" to the Tree of Life but rather the "Keeper" of the path or way.  So my question - where else in scripture do we encounter someone claiming to be in charge of the "way"?  I will make this simple - All of the symbolism of one of the Cherubim - the Cherub at the right hand of the mercy seat - points to Christ.

 

The Traveler

Edited January 15, 2019 by Traveler

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

and no one says anything about a body of flesh and bone

As previously posted:

Question: "There are several references testifying to the fact that the Lord appeared to ancient prophets before the flood, yet we read in the Book of Mormon, Ether 3:6-16, that the Lord had never shown himself to man prior to the days of the Brother of Jared. What explanation can be offered to clarify this apparent contradiction?" 
 

Elder Smith gave the following response: 
 

 Answer: There is no contradiction....It is true that the Savior appeared to the prophets before the flood, but it is evident that he did not reveal himself in the fulness as he did to the Brother of Jared. Talking "face to face," as stated in this revelation, does not mean that the Lord did not appear in a cloud; or, that his body was partially hidden from the view of the prophet. All of this could occur and yet the Lord still be partially, if not completely, hidden from the prophet's view. The great difference rests in this, which the conversation of the Lord with the Brother of Jared clearly indicates: The Savior was conversing with the Brother of Jared in person, yes, evidently face to face, yet the Lord was hidden by a veil. The Brother of Jared knew that the Lord was there,but evidently he did not understand that the Lord had a body apparently of flesh and bones. Through his great faith he was able to see the finger of the Lord when the Lord touched the stones. So astonished did the prophet become that he fell to the earth in fright, fearing that the Lord might strike him. Receiving the assurance that all was well the following conversation occurred: 
 

Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions (vols. 1-4., Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1957-1963), Vol.2, p.123.

Edited January 15, 2019 by mikbone

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

As previously posted:

Question: "There are several references testifying to the fact that the Lord appeared to ancient prophets before the flood, yet we read in the Book of Mormon, Ether 3:6-16, that the Lord had never shown himself to man prior to the days of the Brother of Jared. What explanation can be offered to clarify this apparent contradiction?"

Elder Smith gave the following response:

 Answer: There is no contradiction....It is true that the Savior appeared to the prophets before the flood, but it is evident that he did not reveal himself in the fulness as he did to the Brother of Jared. Talking "face to face," as stated in this revelation, does not mean that the Lord did not appear in a cloud; or, that his body was partially hidden from the view of the prophet. All of this could occur and yet the Lord still be partially, if not completely, hidden from the prophet's view. The great difference rests in this, which the conversation of the Lord with the Brother of Jared clearly indicates: The Savior was conversing with the Brother of Jared in person, yes, evidently face to face, yet the Lord was hidden by a veil. The Brother of Jared knew that the Lord was there,but evidently he did not understand that the Lord had a body apparently of flesh and bones. Through his great faith he was able to see the finger of the Lord when the Lord touched the stones. So astonished did the prophet become that he fell to the earth in fright, fearing that the Lord might strike him. Receiving the assurance that all was well the following conversation occurred:

Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions (vols. 1-4., Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1957-1963), Vol.2, p.123.

What I meant by that phrase is, “no one (MC, Jesus or Moroni) in the text (of Ether Chapter 3) says anything about a body of flesh and bone.” Elder Smith’s interpretation seems to use the word “apparently” to convey “ostensibly” or “in appearance only.” Personally I think better editing would have caught the bones error and replaced it with blood, but the intended meaning of 'appearance" is the same.

More archaically, “apparently” also means “plainly, clearly” as in Numbers 12:8: “With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”

[wenglund]

16 hours ago, mikbone said:

The word bone does appear in the commentary provided by Joseph Fielding Smith as written in Answers to Gospel Questions.

Yes, and I indirectly account for that, along with other things,  in my "However" paragraph.

16 hours ago, mikbone said:

Thank you for noticing that Mahonri is allowed to assume something that is incorrect.  I believe that this is a key part to understanding the text.

Yes, the term likeness is tantamount.  Did you consider the likelihood that the amount of information disclosed before and after the ordinance would be significantly different?

I think the information disclosed went well beyond what Moroni explicitly included in the book.

16 hours ago, mikbone said:

And why is this presentation as discussed in verse 15 singilarly different than any previous manifestation - Including the men Adam and Enoch?

Since I don't have access to what all Adam and Enoch may have experienced, I can't rightly say. Were I to guess,  though, I think it may consist of  something along the lines of a pull vs push experience. By that I mean the Adam and Enoch may have required help (i.e. a "push"--in Enoch's case, it was clay to the eyes) to bring them to a level of faith needed to see into the heavens and observe spirits, if not the beginning to the end; whereas with Mahonri,, his faith automatically "pulled" the vision of the future, if not also the past and preset, into view.,.

16 hours ago, mikbone said:

Mahonri never saw a mortal body.  

I believe that he saw, among other things, the future mortal body part (finger) of Christ.

Quote

And there is indication that Mahonri did more than just see the “body of my spirit” in the later half of the text.

The phrase “in the spirit” as written in verse 17 is curious as well.  Because in this presentation, unlike the event that occurs in 1 Nephi 11 wherin Nephi was “caught away in the Spirit of the Lord, yea, into an exceedingly high mountain”, Mahonri actually climbed mt Shelem and was there in the flesh.

Yes, there are multiple ways in which visions occur.

In short, there are layers of meaning within the Chapter to to accommodate and reconcile the seeming conflicting statements of Church leaders as well as your personal view.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Edspringer]

On 1/12/2019 at 12:59 PM, JohnsonJones said:

Has he ordered himself not to partake of it?

Who says he doesn't eat it already?

Exactely. God said that when Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, they became like themselves, knowing good from evil.