Judgement: When The Chips Are Down

[Guest]

All too often people tend to ask the question:

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Why would God...?

Fill in the blank with some difficulty, suffering, weakness, trial, etc. to justify believing...

• God doesn't exist.
• God is not a loving god.
• LGBTQ is not a sin.
• God is ...

Whatever the fill in the blank is, it's apparently God's fault, or there can't be a God.  In the Church we have many explanations for why God allows suffering or gives us trials. And all of them are good.  But I'd like to focus on one of them today.

The Greatest of All never sinned, yet, he was given the greatest trial of all -- The Atonement.

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Mortality is meant to be a test.  A test is not a test unless it is difficult.  And that is true for everyone and every topic. 

  --  D&C 19:18

Mortality is meant to be a test.  A test is not a test unless it is difficult.  And that is true for everyone and every topic. 

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Neither is it the acme of excellence if you fight and conquer and the whole Empire says, "Well done!" To lift an autumn hair is no sign of great strength; to see the sun and moon is no sign of sharp sight; to hear the noise of thunder is no sign of a quick ear.

 -- SunTzu, The Art of War

It seems only too obvious that the LGBTQ movement has gained steam in the same era of entitlements, the easily "triggered", the rise of socialism (IOW, government theft in the name of safety nets and "fairness"), and comfort puppies because of lost elections.

People have lost the ability to understand the concept of "tests".  To graduate college with an SJW degree, they need only regurgitate what the professor says -- as close to word-for-word as possible.  No thinking required.  Just copy it down and mindlessly believe it.  What used to be a revered "liberal arts" degree which indicated the capacity for reasoning, logic, and expanded horizons has turned into a joke of a degree that shows that a person is capable of complaining about their lot in life, rioting to keep others who disagree with them from speaking, and suing if all that fails.

All this shows that when the chips are down, they will devolve into their animalistic behaviors. 

To be worthy of the Celestial Kingdom, we need to rise above that.  We need to be able to see something farther than what is right in front of us.  We need a vision of the Glory of God.  When the chips are down and the entire world seems to be crushing us and about to destroy us to the point where we may wonder "why me?", we still have faith in God.

This is not simply a "tough it out" quality -- although that helps.  It is about where our vision is.  It is about where our tent faces.  It is about where we put our heart.

Where is our vision?  Which direction does our tent face?  Where is our heart?

[JohnsonJones]

19 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

All too often people tend to ask the question:

Fill in the blank with some difficulty, suffering, weakness, trial, etc. to justify believing...

• God doesn't exist.
• God is not a loving god.
• LGBTQ is not a sin.
• God is ...

Whatever the fill in the blank is, it's apparently God's fault, or there can't be a God.  In the Church we have many explanations for why God allows suffering or gives us trials. And all of them are good.  But I'd like to focus on one of them today.

The Greatest of All never sinned, yet, he was given the greatest trial of all -- The Atonement.

Mortality is meant to be a test.  A test is not a test unless it is difficult.  And that is true for everyone and every topic. 

I think I was with you to this point, and to a great degree I agree.

19 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

It seems only too obvious that the LGBTQ movement has gained steam in the same era of entitlements, the easily "triggered", the rise of socialism (IOW, government theft in the name of safety nets and "fairness"), and comfort puppies because of lost elections.

People have lost the ability to understand the concept of "tests".  To graduate college with an SJW degree, they need only regurgitate what the professor says -- as close to word-for-word as possible.  No thinking required.  Just copy it down and mindlessly believe it.  What used to be a revered "liberal arts" degree which indicated the capacity for reasoning, logic, and expanded horizons has turned into a joke of a degree that shows that a person is capable of complaining about their lot in life, rioting to keep others who disagree with them from speaking, and suing if all that fails.

All this shows that when the chips are down, they will devolve into their animalistic behaviors. 

However, I think this points out a GRAVE error that many people have today.  They think they are worshipping the Lord when in truth they are worshipping a Political party or Political group.  They worship the goals and thoughts of that group rather than the Lord.  They put that group ABOVE that of the commandments of the Lord.  They put POLITICS and POLITICAL BEARINGS above that of the Lord.

The Lord never said....though shalt not have safety nets or fairness.  He never commented on MANY THINGS that people try to ascribe as his gospel which are really just political views these days.

This happens with people on all ends of the political spectrum.  They ascribe their own political ideas as religion and cast all those who are not of their political belief as wicked Demagogues out to destroy the work of the Lord.  In many ways I see it as a play of pride where they put their own political agenda above that of the Lord's ability to love all and who has his own commandments that we need to follow that are not privy to any specific political party or agenda...left or right.

It's not just those on the Left, but I think those on the right who put political ideology (let them eat cake, let us not care for those who are lesser, it is survival of the fittest, let those with wealth and power have more wealth and power, those who are poor deserve it...and other such thinking that is also found on the right that does not really correlate with the TWO GREATEST COMMANDMENTS) and any OTHERS who put POLITICAL IDEALS ABOVE THAT of the LORD's IDEALS that would fall into this arena. 

I believe we have those who love the Lord and their Neighbor (the two greatest commandments) on BOTH sides of the spectrum, or on ALL SIDES of the spectrum (not all people are found in the US or use the US's two political sided spectrum).  It is not just relegated to one group or the other and when we go to Heaven we may find that those we least expect are those who were the most valiant, regardless of what political group they may have been party too in this life, if they were even aligned with a political party to begin with.

 

19 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

To be worthy of the Celestial Kingdom, we need to rise above that.  We need to be able to see something farther than what is right in front of us.  We need a vision of the Glory of God.  When the chips are down and the entire world seems to be crushing us and about to destroy us to the point where we may wonder "why me?", we still have faith in God.

This is not simply a "tough it out" quality -- although that helps.  It is about where our vision is.  It is about where our tent faces.  It is about where we put our heart.

Where is our vision?  Which direction does our tent face?  Where is our heart?

And once you include that it is anything, or any group rather than just something one dislikes, that we need to put our heart above and put it on the Lord, I agree.  Our focus needs to be put on the Lord and our hearts need to be set on him.

[Guest]

On 1/27/2019 at 6:37 AM, JohnsonJones said:

I think I was with you to this point, and to a great degree I agree.

However, I think this points out a GRAVE error that many people have today.  They think they are worshipping the Lord when in truth they are worshipping a Political party or Political group.  They worship the goals and thoughts of that group rather than the Lord.  They put that group ABOVE that of the commandments of the Lord.  They put POLITICS and POLITICAL BEARINGS above that of the Lord.

 

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The Lord never said....though shalt not have safety nets or fairness.  He never commented on MANY THINGS that people try to ascribe as his gospel which are really just political views these days.

I never said otherwise.  I believe you still have not yet grasped the nuances of my position on the matter of how we treat the poor. And BTW, this has nothing to do with the central point of my OP.  Did you miss it entirely?

OR perhaps you were so narrowly focused on the part you disagreed with that you skipped over the qualifying point that you often tend to ignore anyway?

On 1/27/2019 at 6:06 AM, Carborendum said:

government theft in the name of safety nets and "fairness"

I'm all for safety nets and fairness.  I'm against government theft wearing the sheep's clothing of safety nets and fairness.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I never said otherwise.  I believe you still have not yet grasped the nuances of my position on the matter of how we treat the poor. And BTW, this has nothing to do with the central point of my OP.  Did you miss it entirely?

Perhaps you could clarify your position in the simplist and shortest way possible. Long post tend to circle the point rather than getting to it.

Edited January 27, 2019 by Emmanuel Goldstein

[zil]

1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Perhaps you could clarify your position in the simplist and shortest way possible. Long post tend to circle the point rather than getting to it.

I'll take a stab:

6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

People have lost the ability to understand the concept of "tests". 

6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

All this shows that when the chips are down, they [people without the Gospel to give them perspective] will devolve into their animalistic behaviors. 

6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

To be worthy of the Celestial Kingdom, we need to rise above that.  We need to be able to see something farther than what is right in front of us.  We need a vision of the Glory of God.  When the chips are down and the entire world seems to be crushing us and about to destroy us to the point where we may wonder "why me?", we still have faith in God.

This is not simply a "tough it out" quality -- although that helps.  It is about where our vision is.  It is about where our tent faces.  It is about where we put our heart.

That seems to summarize the point, to me.

...Or, in my own words: Mortality is meant to be a test.  However, the world has adopted the attitude that it should not be, that everyone deserves "easy".  Therefore, rather than viewing hardships through the lens of being tried and tested, they rant and rave and demand others change (or give, or validate, or any number of other verbs) so that their life might be easier.  Those of us who believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ ought to understand that trials exist for our benefit, and should approach them in that way, always relying on Christ.

[JohnsonJones]

On 1/27/2019 at 10:06 AM, Carborendum said:

I never said otherwise.  I believe you still have not yet grasped the nuances of my position on the matter of how we treat the poor. And BTW, this has nothing to do with the central point of my OP.  Did you miss it entirely?

OR perhaps you were so narrowly focused on the part you disagreed with that you skipped over the qualifying point that you often tend to ignore anyway?

I'm all for safety nets and fairness.  I'm against government theft wearing the sheep's clothing of safety nets and fairness.

No, I agreed with you for the most part, but that middle portion seemed more like someone taking a stab at the liberal society of the US and a political talking point more than anything dealing with religion.

It is why I cut it out from the rest of your argument as it didn't fit with the rest of it.  I agreed with the beginning and end, but the middle was just trying to condemn many faithful members simply because they may not share the same political views as others.  

I can SEE how it could apply, especially with the extremes today, but that would apply to BOTH sides and extremes of the political discourse and deals more with people worshipping their politics (aka...idols) and putting them above the LORD, rather than politics.

One could find it ironic that a political ideology trying to point out that those who do not share one's politics are sinners would be in the same topic as putting the Lord first and foremost above all other items or ideas. 

There wasn't much to say on the first or last portion of your topic.  As I said (and you should have caught it) I agree with you.  As a professor who teaches what some may consider an SJW degree (history), I would fall into one of those groups you apparently consider evil and working against the Lord.  It should be OBVIOUS why I would not agree with that.

I try to put the Lord first and foremost in my life and what I seek to do.  I agree this is something we should do.  We should focus on the Lord.  However, I think putting political views, especially ones that group individuals and occupations into the enemy is not something that actually is putting the Lord first or putting our tents facing him.

[Backroads]

I believe I tend to see plenty of church members picking and choosing what political bits are worthy of the gospel.

[person0]

1 hour ago, Backroads said:

I believe I tend to see plenty of church members picking and choosing what political bits are worthy of the gospel.

We are supposed to be doing that.

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The prophets have made clear that no constitution or set of laws, written or unwritten, can by themselves protect a nation from corrupt leaders. Brigham Young remarked, “No matter how good a government is, unless it is administered by righteous men, an evil government will be made of it.” (Journal of Discourses, 10:177.) Bitter experience has shown that the best way to keep corrupt individuals from subverting constitutional and legal processes is for committed citizens to maintain a constant, careful surveillance over governmental activities, opposing individuals motivated only by selfish ambition in seeking public office. Although ancient and latter-day scriptures warn that increasing political violence and corruption will precede the millennium, Latter-day Saints must continue during this pre-millennial period to struggle to maintain the political freedoms essential to the spread and practice of the gospel.
(Beyond Voting: Some Duties of the LDS Citizen - Ensign - 1976) emphasis added

10 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

One could find it ironic that a political ideology trying to point out that those who do not share one's politics are sinners would be in the same topic as putting the Lord first and foremost above all other items or ideas. 

All people are sinners.  The majority of people who embrace improper political ideologies are deceived, not wicked.  Many of the leaders who espouse those ideologies, do so for wicked purposes, sometimes as true believers in the ideology, but often simply to set themselves up to get gain and the praise of men.  This can, and does happen on both sides of the isle; it is more noticeable when extremist groups take action and gain the public eye; it is simply more pronounced and active on the extreme left in the current day.

Dependence on the government for basic necessities of life is a calculated effort by the adversary to take the place of dependence on the Lord; this in itself should at the very least become obvious to any student of the gospel, over time.  This does not mean that those who espouse policies of this nature are intentionally doing so wickedly, however, depending on how their plan is implemented, they may be unintentionally furthering the work of the adversary.

Dependence on the government for daily sustenance, by its nature, removes individual freedom, and gradually brings individuals and societies into captivity; this then prepares them for a future of even greater captivity, even one that they would go so far as to willingly accept in exchange for their basic necessities.  In today's society, self reliance, as taught by the Church and the Lord's servants, is being whittled away; this has been made easier by the degradation of the family unit.  There are so many policies of various kinds that serve to strengthen and promote a society that is no longer founded on family.  It is our duty to God and country stand against these things.  There are appropriate ways to achieve safety nets and the like, however, because of the political climate of the day, it will be almost impossible to got to that point.

Is it not obvious that those leaders and prominent sources who tell blatant lies to the public are doing the work of the adversary (regardless of ideology)?  Consider the most recent shutdown; is it not obvious that refusing to properly secure our borders is wrong in the eyes of the Lord?  In the Book of Mormon, how many times did the Nephites build walls to protect themselves and their families?  How many large groups of people fled or escaped captivity or persecution only to be welcomed to Zarahemla (which had walls)?  Did the walls prevent them from welcoming new-comers and those who needed help?  Is it not obvious that, in general, intentionally preventing the birth of a child of God serves the adversary?  Is it not obvious that sustaining a non-contributing able bodied individual on government/public funds serves no true benefit to the individual or society?  All of these things are political, and yet, all of these things are religious, especially as we seek to build the Kingdom of God and to prepare individuals, society, and the world for the Second Coming.  The Lord can enable and apply appropriate subjectivity; secular government cannot.

As members of the Lord's Church, it is our responsibility to interpret the happenings of the day in the context of the gospel, and to act accordingly.  In order to accomplish this, we must know and understand the principles of the gospel, and seek to understand how the Lord would have them be implemented in our society.  As I hinted above, I believe that if the Lord were here, each person and each families situation would be treated subjectively, in relation to almost every issue, political or otherwise, as the Lord knows us all.  However, until he returns our societies laws are mostly objective, and then our Bishops have the calling and responsibility to be subjective judges in Israel, by the guidance of the Spirit, where applicable.  As individuals, we must seek the inspiration of the Spirit so as to not be led to and fro by every wind of doctrine; it is evident that, even within the Church, this is happening in our day.

Edited January 28, 2019 by person0

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Backroads said:

I believe I tend to see plenty of church members picking and choosing what political bits are worthy of the gospel.

As well they should.