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2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

"Seems" is the operative word.  Mainstream Media is making it seem like everyone is angry.  That's the narrative they want to push.  All one really needs to do is really see if the loudmouths actually represent the views of who they claim to represent.

Yeah, that is why I used the word "Seems."

Social media should require people to identify themselves openly. The toxicity and trolling would disapear pretty quickly, maybe not all, but at least we would know who they are at that point. I am sure more people would think before they said something hateful or mean.

 

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

It still matters in the USA, especially to the rest of the world.  You haven't quite reached Britain level yet - where the people's repeated mandate keep getting overturned by Parliament.

That's pretty much what happened with DOMA, except it was the judiciary and not Congress that made law by fiat.

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5 hours ago, Vort said:

That's pretty much what happened with DOMA, except it was the judiciary and not Congress that made law by fiat.

And Roe v Wade and Obergefell v Hodges and...

which is still not to the level of people's voices being ignored.  The people did manage to elect Trump.

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On 9/9/2019 at 2:22 PM, Vort said:

The political left has already proven itself violent, yet you insist on fantasies of violence from the political right. That is most certainly the guiding narrative of the MSM, but I'm hoping most reasonable and unbiased people see through this transparent lie. 

Do you have any evidence of this?  

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21 minutes ago, Scott said:

Do you have any evidence of this?  

1.) Dallas police shot.

2.) Steve Scalise shot at a baseball field

3.) Ron Paul attacked in his front yard

4.) Berkley riots against Ben Shapiro and Milo Y with molotov cocktails and a masked professor smacking somebody over the head with a bike lock.

5.) Portland riots.

etc. etc.

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10 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

1.) Dallas police shot.

2.) Steve Scalise shot at a baseball field

3.) Ron Paul attacked in his front yard

4.) Berkley riots against Ben Shapiro and Milo Y with molotov cocktails and a masked professor smacking somebody over the head with a bike lock.

5.) Portland riots.

etc. etc.

Yes, that is evidence of violence from the political left.   We are in agreement here.

But how is this different from the following?

1)   Armed takeover of the Malhuer Wildlife Refuge

2)  Planned Parenthood shootings

3)   FEAR

4)   Portland Train attack

5)   Ambush on Las Vegas police officers

etc. etc.

How is this only "fanstasies of violence"?

Edited by Scott

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1 hour ago, Scott said:
On 9/9/2019 at 1:22 PM, Vort said:

The political left has already proven itself violent, yet you insist on fantasies of violence from the political right. That is most certainly the guiding narrative of the MSM, but I'm hoping most reasonable and unbiased people see through this transparent lie. 

Do you have any evidence of this?  

As I said, I'm just hoping that most reasonable and unbiased people can see through this transparent lie. I don't have much evidence that they actually can. Hope springs eternal.

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5 minutes ago, Vort said:

As I said, I'm just hoping that most reasonable and unbiased people can see through this transparent lie. I don't have much evidence that they actually can. Hope springs eternal.

You are dodging the question.  What evidence do you have that right wing violence is a transparent lie?  

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Just off the top of my head,

3 hours ago, Scott said:

But how is this different from the following?
1)   Armed takeover of the Malhuer Wildlife Refuge

FYI, the only one who was shot at and died in that one, was one of the armed takeover-ers.  They might have been crazy right-wingers, but they planned everything to make sure no innocents got hurt.

Quote

2)  Planned Parenthood shootings

This one happened down the road from where I work.  It's a tale of a mentally unstable individual who happened to be on the right, as opposed to the mentally unstable individuals who happen to be on the left.  The mental instability's the cause, not the politics.  Fun fact that didn't make national news: During the standoff, some overzealous patriot armed to the teeth and dressed up in body armor approached a police checkpoint to "see if he could help".  He's lucky they didn't arrest or shoot him.

Quote

5)   Ambush on Las Vegas police officers

The last I heard, they had given up finding a motive from this guy.  He died without note, manifesto, red flags, warning signs, or extreme political views.  To say he's an example of right wing violence is to assume facts not in evidence.  (Making crap up = fantasy.)

 

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

FYI, the only one who was shot at and died in that one, was one of the armed takeover-ers.  They might have been crazy right-wingers, but they planned everything to make sure no innocents got hurt.

It is still violence.   

PS, Ammon Bundy and Cliven Bundy are my family members.   To say that they never threatened violence is false.   So are their false claims about our family history (which is well documented).   

Quote

This one happened down the road from where I work.  It's a tale of a mentally unstable individual who happened to be on the right, as opposed to the mentally unstable individuals who happen to be on the left.  The mental instability's the cause, not the politics.  Fun fact that didn't make national news: During the standoff, some overzealous patriot armed to the teeth and dressed up in body armor approached a police checkpoint to "see if he could help".  He's lucky they didn't arrest or shoot him.

There have been several attacks on Planned Parenthood and other similar facilities, so it's not just this one.  

Quote

The last I heard, they had given up finding a motive from this guy.  He died without note, manifesto, red flags, warning signs, or extreme political views.  To say he's an example of right wing violence is to assume facts not in evidence.  (Making crap up = fantasy.)

There is plenty of evidence and it was a couple not an individual.   Perhaps we are speaking of different incidences.   Which one were you referring to?   Were there other ambushes on police officers in Las Vegas in recent years?   

I was speaking of the ambush on police officers on 6/8/2014.   They left plenty of evidence of their extremist views, in writing, in videos, and in word at the scene of the crime.  

Edited by Scott

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According to the Washington Post who has the latest figures I can find has the following statistics: 

https://beta.washingtonpost.com/national/in-the-united-states-right-wing-violence-is-on-the-rise/2018/11/25/61f7f24a-deb4-11e8-85df-7a6b4d25cfbb_story.html

In 2017, here are the domestic terrorism statistics for the United States:

There were 65 incidences classified as domestic terrorism in the US during 2017.

Right wing terrorism = 36 incidences and 11 fatalities

Left wing terrorism = 10 incidences with 6 fatalities

Islamist terrorism = 7 incidences with 16 fatalities

Unknown/other (including the mass shooting in Las Vegas) = 62 fatilities (58 which were from the Las Vegas shooting)

Does anyone have better figures or care to dispute this?    Please use figures and not general statements such as "it's all a fantasy" or whatever. 

Is there a better source out there?  
 

Edited by Scott

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3 hours ago, Scott said:

According to the Washington Post who has the latest figures I can find has the following statistics: 

https://beta.washingtonpost.com/national/in-the-united-states-right-wing-violence-is-on-the-rise/2018/11/25/61f7f24a-deb4-11e8-85df-7a6b4d25cfbb_story.html

In 2017, here are the domestic terrorism statistics for the United States:

There were 65 incidences classified as domestic terrorism in the US during 2017.

Right wing terrorism = 36 incidences and 11 fatalities

Left wing terrorism = 10 incidences with 6 fatalities

Islamist terrorism = 7 incidences with 16 fatalities

Unknown/other (including the mass shooting in Las Vegas) = 62 fatilities (58 which were from the Las Vegas shooting)

Does anyone have better figures or care to dispute this?    Please use figures and not general statements such as "it's all a fantasy" or whatever. 

Is there a better source out there?  
 

I'm curious as to what the Washington Post defines as "right wing/ left wing terrorism". Don't get me wrong ,WaPo is a great paper, I used to read it all the time. So I'm not challenging you, I'm honestly curious. 

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On 9/14/2019 at 12:53 PM, Scott said:

Yes, that is evidence of violence from the political left.   We are in agreement here.

But how is this different from the following?

Here's the nuance:

The things I listed were violence committed by Left-Wingers against Right-Wingers due to the fact that they are Right-Wing.  It is not a specific issue they are against, it's a political narrative promoted by a specific political party or an attack against a specific affiliation (for example:  attacking a person because he's wearing a MAGA hat).

 

On 9/14/2019 at 12:53 PM, Scott said:

1)   Armed takeover of the Malhuer Wildlife Refuge

Not Right-wing nor Republican attacking Left-wing or Democrat.  This is a Property Rights issue between a Family and the Federal Government.  The Fed Govt just happened to be presided by a Democrat at the time.  I don't think it would have mattered if the Fed Govt was presided by a Republican.  This property rights issue is not an issue that stemmed from a Right-Wing political rhetoric narrative running at the time such as the Dallas Police Shooting.  It was a specific event that affected specific ranchers.

In any case, no violence was committed by the ranchers against the Feds or anybody else.

 

On 9/14/2019 at 12:53 PM, Scott said:

2)  Planned Parenthood shootings

This was not Right-Wing versus Left-Wing either unless you're going to posit that an attack based on one's religious convictions is right-wing.  That would be highly skewed in light of Islamic Jihadists' toppling of the Twin Towers.

 

On 9/14/2019 at 12:53 PM, Scott said:

3)   FEAR

Dunno what this is.

On 9/14/2019 at 12:53 PM, Scott said:

4)   Portland Train attack

Not a Right-Wing versus Left-Wing either.  If you're going to posit White Nationalists are Right-Wingers like the Media likes to do, then you're going to have to explain why the KKK are Democrats.  

 

On 9/14/2019 at 12:53 PM, Scott said:

5)   Ambush on Las Vegas police officers

Something is going on in Las Vegas.  This incident, along with the Vegas massacre at a country music concert... are all memory holed.  All of the information coming out of these things are flimsy, conjecture, lacking in any tangible facts.  Conspiracy theories run amok.  So yeah, right-wingers point to the Vegas massacre at a country music festival as left-wing motivated and the Vegas police officers shooting as right-wing motivated.  You can posit it's a CIA operation and you'd have the same credibility as the news coming out of those things.

 

On 9/14/2019 at 12:53 PM, Scott said:

etc. etc.

How is this only "fanstasies of violence"?

Do you agree that Trump Derangement Syndrome is a thing?  Do you agree that Trump supporters are getting kicked out of restaurants, dox'd and their businesses threatened to be closed down, rioted against, with the political left and the news media doing synchronized monster painting not just against President Trump but Trump supporters as well?  Do you believe that the same is happening against Democrats?

 

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4 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Not Right-wing nor Republican attacking Left-wing or Democrat.  This is a Property Rights issue between a Family and the Federal Government.  

I guess I can see the point that they weren't attacking Democrat or Left Wing specifically, but they were out to attack. Feds and anyone who agrees with them.

To clarify the above though, it really isn't a property rights issue since the Bundy's didn't own any of the land in question.    Although the media only focused on the Bundy's grazing on public lands, they were also (illegally) grazing on thier neighbor's lands and other's private property.  

Quote

In any case, no violence was committed by the ranchers against the Feds or anybody else.

They made plenty of threats though and people feared standing up to them.   

Quote

Dunno what this is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FEAR_(terrorist_group)

The FEAR militia (Forever Enduring, Always Ready) was an American terrorist group of between four and eleven individuals that the State of Georgia alleged in 2012 to have planned to destroy a dam and poison apple orchards in Washington State, set off explosives in Forsyth Park in Savannah, Georgia, and assassinate President Barack Obama.

Quote

Not a Right-Wing versus Left-Wing either.  If you're going to posit White Nationalists are Right-Wingers like the Media likes to do, then you're going to have to explain why the KKK are Democrats.  

The KKK used to be Democrats, but now they side with the Republicans, which isn't to say that Republicans support the KKK.   Most Republicans (and Democrats) hate the KKK.

Quote

Something is going on in Las Vegas.  This incident, along with the Vegas massacre at a country music concert... are all memory holed.  All of the information coming out of these things are flimsy, conjecture, lacking in any tangible facts.  Conspiracy theories run amok.  So yeah, right-wingers point to the Vegas massacre at a country music festival as left-wing motivated and the Vegas police officers shooting as right-wing motivated.  You can posit it's a CIA operation and you'd have the same credibility as the news coming out of those things.

The Ambush of the police officers was definitely right wing motivated, at least from an anti-government.   

Quote

Do you agree that Trump Derangement Syndrome is a thing?

Yes, though I haven't seen it.

Quote

 Do you agree that Trump supporters are getting kicked out of restaurants, dox'd and their businesses threatened to be closed down, rioted against, with the political left and the news media doing synchronized monster painting not just against President Trump but Trump supporters as well? 

The first part may have well and might still be happening.    I don't think the left is doing syncronized monster painting any more than the right is against the left.   Just look at this forum.  

Quote

Do you believe that the same is happening against Democrats?

Yes, definitely.    I am not really a Democrat, but I am an environmentalist.    Even though I wasn't vocal about it in Craig Colorado (we moved last November), I did give slide shows for the Conservation Colorado and other wilderness advocasy groups.   Just for that (I was surprised by it), I got plenty of hate mail, including from some ward members.    Although they did apologize after I showed them to the Bishop, they continued their rhetroric on social media.

Several wilderness advocasy groups have been threatened in places like San Juan County Utah.  "Wanted Dead or Alive" posters were hung around their property.   The ranch where they were holding their gathering was padlocked.  

In the same county, some of the SUWA members were run off the highway while riding their bikes and had things thrown at them.   

https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=55092164&itype=CMSID

In Escalante Utah, there used to be parades where people would make effigies of Democrats and Envinronmentallist and put them on the front of cars like they had been run down and killed by running them over.   This was in the town parades.

The former bishop there was also released (presumably, I don't think the reason was announced publically) after making threats against anyone who agreed with wilderness preservation.   When their land and house was vandalized he announced in public that they got what they deserved.    When that hit national news, he was released shortly after.  

So yes, it does happen to democrats or others.    It has happened to us, though only by cruel words rather than physical voilence.  

(Also yes I already known that there has been environmental terrorism as well-which is also not acceptable).

 

 

Edited by Scott

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2 hours ago, Scott said:

I guess I can see the point that they weren't attacking Democrat or Left Wing specifically, but they were out to attack. Feds and anyone who agrees with them.

To clarify the above though, it really isn't a property rights issue since the Bundy's didn't own any of the land in question.    Although the media only focused on the Bundy's grazing on public lands, they were also (illegally) grazing on thier neighbor's lands and other's private property.  

They made plenty of threats though and people feared standing up to them.   

Doesn't change the fact that YOU are assigning Right-Wing to the Bundy's and the Feds as Left-Wing for some reason.  This was not at all a political stand-off.  I think you're missing the point.

The below is more proof you're missing the point:

2 hours ago, Scott said:

 

 

Yes, definitely.    I am not really a Democrat, but I am an environmentalist.   

Perfect evidence of the point you're missing.  As you can see here, you are attaching "environmentalism" to the political left Democrat even as you admit you are not one.  So, an environmentalist getting harassed is not because he is left-wing or Democrat.  He is harassed because he's an environmentalist.  So assigning "right wing" to the harasser is also going to be a mis-characterization just like assigning Democrat to your environmentalism is a mis-charaterization.

 

2 hours ago, Scott said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FEAR_(terrorist_group)

The FEAR militia (Forever Enduring, Always Ready) was an American terrorist group of between four and eleven individuals that the State of Georgia alleged in 2012 to have planned to destroy a dam and poison apple orchards in Washington State, set off explosives in Forsyth Park in Savannah, Georgia, and assassinate President Barack Obama.

The KKK used to be Democrats, but now they side with the Republicans, which isn't to say that Republicans support the KKK.   Most Republicans (and Democrats) hate the KKK.

This is, of course, false.  Robert Byrd was a Democrat from the time he was grand pooh bah of the KKK until the day he died.  Of course, the MSM have been working non-stop for almost half a century to convince you otherwise.

In any case, this is still missing the point.  White Nationalists do not cause violence because of political affiliation.  White Nationalists, if they are to become violent due to their white nationalism, will kill you if you are not white - regardless of your political affiliation.

 

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7 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Here... now you've seen them:

 

I meant I haven't seen them in person.   I know that they have happened Every single one of those has a counterpart from someone on the right.

Here's almost an hour of videos of Obama effigies being burned or hung:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxjPHAg0T64

How is that different from someone holding a severed head of Trump?

How about the below different from the above?

Coast Guard Officer Plotted to Kill Democrats and Journalists:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/20/us/christopher-hasson-coast-guard.html

Bombs mailed to Democrats:

https://www.npr.org/2019/08/05/748420957/cesar-sayoc-florida-man-who-mailed-bombs-to-democrats-and-media-gets-20-years

Car deliberately driven into a crowd of people who had been peacefully protesting against the United the Right Rally killing one and injuring 28:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlottesville_car_attack

Hundreds of attacks on Obama supporters, both violent and some non-violent but disgusting (including leaving pizza boxes full of feces at people's houses who had Obama signs:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2008/11/15/obamas-election-spurs-race-threats-crimes/

Are these all just fantasies and transparent lies as was claimed in previous posts?  

Quote

Doesn't change the fact that YOU are assigning Right-Wing to the Bundy's and the Feds as Left-Wing for some reason.  

Some (not all obviously) of the right wing certainly did try to make it as a right vs. left   Issue.    They made Bundy into some kind of folk hero.

 

Quote

Perfect evidence of the point you're missing.  As you can see here, you are attaching "environmentalism" to the political left Democrat even as you admit you are not one.

It is them (not me) who assigned me the label of democrat and liberal because I support environmentalist causes.  Both of them when on and on about the evils of democrats.   I should also mentioned that the first nasty letter wasn't even spurred by a slideshow I gave; it was spurred because my 10 year old son made a comment to another 10 year old that my son supported the national parks.   We got a super nasty letter from a ward member that overheard the conversations of the two ten year olds.  It was her that assumed that we were democrats because we supported national parks and she went on and on in her letter saying that we must repent because we were democrats, democrats were evil, etc.   

Quote

In any case, this is still missing the point. 

I think your missing my point.   My point isn't that there isn't any violence from the left, but that it is happening on the right too.   Saying that it is all coming from one side isn't productive and is ignoring the problem.

We are supposed to be Americans who disagree, but are still on the same side.

Quote

This is, of course, false.  Robert Byrd was a Democrat from the time he was grand pooh bah of the KKK until the day he died.

Robert Byrd denounced the KKK decades ago (even in the 1980's he was discussed in our high school history as an example of someone who changed viewpoints on civil rights).   What does that have to do my comment about the KKK siding with Republicans now days?     

What I said is true.  I said now days the KKK sides with Republicans even though most Republicans disagree with them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/11/01/the-kkks-official-newspaper-has-endorsed-donald-trump-for-president/?noredirect=on

I'm pretty sure that most Republicans are repulsed by the KKK.   Hopefully they will (some are) be more vocal about it.  

Quote

White Nationalists do not cause violence because of political affiliation.  White Nationalists, if they are to become violent due to their white nationalism, will kill you if you are not white - regardless of your political affiliation.

White Nationalist have threatened, killed, or injured others (including whites) even if they support equality for those they are against.  

Anyway, as mentioned in other threads I'm an independent, but I'm pretty sure that most on the left or right (at least in the US) are pretty repulsed by violence against anyone just disagrees with them politically.   Admitting that it happens on whatever side you happen to be on (and it is happening on both sides as has been demonstrated) and renouncing the violence is a lot more productive than saying it is all coming from one side and that any violence from the other is only fantasy isn't really productive.  All as it does is cause more contention.  

Edited by Scott

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8 hours ago, Scott said:
Anyway, as mentioned in other threads I'm an independent, but I'm pretty sure that most on the left or right (at least in the US) are pretty repulsed by violence against anyone just disagrees with them politically.   Admitting that it happens on whatever side you happen to be on (and it is happening on both sides as has been demonstrated) and renouncing the violence is a lot more productive than saying it is all coming from one side and that any violence from the other is only fantasy isn't really productive.  All as it does is cause more contention.  

I'm not politically affiliated in US politics.  I'm Filipino.  I call it as I see it.  What-aboutism is well and good but if you're comparing apples to oranges it doesn't do anything but excuse the bad apples.

Maybe you're right.  Maybe there are just as much political violence in the right (I disagree, but whatever... my kid wears a MAGA hat in purple Florida and gets harassed... they went to DC with the YM and they were instructed strictly to not wear their MAGA hats - these are ordinary kids that can't wear an ordinary MAGA hat to avoid violence)...

But the fact of the matter is... you now have the Mainstream Media, Pop Culture Celebrities, Information Dissemination Platforms, Colleges and Universities all monster painting one side of the political spectrum in broad daylight without even the pretense of objectivity.  Everything is politicized.  The pictures I posted are not some random whack job down the street.  These are supposed to be respectable high profile people and organizations that a lot of people looked up to.  The regular joe on the street is bombarded by these monster paintings from every angle such that they can't even watch a movie or sit through a commercial without this hitting them in the face.  It is a daily thing! 

Just yesterday, we were again bombarded by another vicious false allegation against Kavanaugh.  Before that, we were bombarded by a sharpie-marked weather map.  Everyday, it's another racist, sexist, homophobe, bigot, fascist, Nazi with concentration camps accusation - right there on the mainstream by mainstream high profile people.  There's no what-aboutism that can compare to that.  

Edited by anatess2

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9 hours ago, Scott said:
Here's almost an hour of videos of Obama effigies being burned or hung:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxjPHAg0T64
How is that different from someone holding a severed head of Trump?

This one has an easy answer.  Your hourlong video is of random nobody citizens being stupid and bad.  The person holding the severed head of Trump is Kathy Griffin, an emmy award-winning celebrity with gigs on Dancing with the Stars, and CNN broadcasts with Anderson Cooper.  

If you want something similar, you'd have to show up with some celebrity on the right burning Obama in effigy.  

You see the difference, don't you?

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

This one has an easy answer.  Your hourlong video is of random nobody citizens being stupid and bad.  The person holding the severed head of Trump is Kathy Griffin, an emmy award-winning celebrity with gigs on Dancing with the Stars, and CNN broadcasts with Anderson Cooper.  

If you want something similar, you'd have to show up with some celebrity on the right burning Obama in effigy.  

You see the difference, don't you?

It's not just that.  It's the reactions of notable people as well.  I don't know of any notable person supporting any effigies of Obama.  Kathy Griffin, Snoop Dog, those CNN analysts,  "The Squad", etc., were defended by most vocal notable people on their side of the political spectrum.  

And the 16-year-old MAGA wearing nobody teen-ager who faced harassment by a racist Black Organization and a drum-beating Native American was vilified, defamed, and calls for his head made by MANY very vocal, very high profile people very publicly for days. 

Edited by anatess2

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2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

This one has an easy answer.  Your hourlong video is of random nobody citizens being stupid and bad.  The person holding the severed head of Trump is Kathy Griffin, an emmy award-winning celebrity with gigs on Dancing with the Stars, and CNN broadcasts with Anderson Cooper.  

If you want something similar, you'd have to show up with some celebrity on the right burning Obama in effigy.  

You see the difference, don't you?

Since when to celebrities have higher morals than the rest of the population? 

Anyway, here are some comments by Ted Nugent, who is a celebrity:

If Barack Obama becomes the president in November, again, I will be either be dead or in jail by this time next year.

Obama, he's a piece of s---. I told him to suck on my machine gun. Hey Hillary,". "You might want to ride one of these (machine gun) into the sunset, you worthless b---

Just know that evil, dishonesty and scam artists have always been around and that right now they're liberal, they're Democrat, they're RINOs, they're Hollywood, they're fake news, they're media, they're academia, and they're half of our government, at least."  "So come to that realization," he continued. "There are rabid coyotes running around, you don't wait till you see one to go get your gun, keep your gun handy. And every time you see one, shoot one."

 

Edited by Scott

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58 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

It's not just that.  It's the reactions of notable people as well.  I don't know of any notable person supporting any effigies of Obama.  Kathy Griffin, Snoop Dog, those CNN analysts,  "The Squad", etc., were defended by most vocal notable people on their side of the political spectrum.  

When was Kathy Griffin defended most vocal noteable people on their side of the political spectrum?  

I remember many on the right defending Ted Nugent when he was making all kinds of hateful and threatening comments towards Democrats and Obama (and Hillary as well).

Here was Trump's reaction:

tr.JPG.f36ef3e3acaf7e790baa76913d0b5015.JPG

 

Edited by Scott

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Well, Scott has fully convinced me. The constant, unending media barrage of hatred toward Republicans, conservatives, and religious folks is exactly equally met with the barrage of hatred toward lefties. Clearly, we here just don't see the other side. There's no imbalance of hatred. None at all. It's all equitable.

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