NY Issues Tax Bill to Samaritan's Purse

[Traveler]

36 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

A few are making this distinction. First, in the eyes of God, sure--those who respond to missionary and service work deserve special credit. He will reward. However, in terms of what the New York state government is doing, the distinction is meaningless, imho. In my area public schools earn well-deserved professional wages (Seattle starts at $60K). Religious school teachers are generally 2/3rds of that. So, do we say they are paid and deserve no extra honor for choosing a much lower paying institution because they believe in Christian education? Likewise, I suspect that those healthcare workers who are employed by Samaritan's Purse, as well as those who took leave, or accepted other considerations from their home-state employers, still made some tremendous family and financial sacrifices to answer the call for help--again a call issued by this same governor.

I must admit that I am surprised at the somewhat tepid response to this. To my mind the governor is holding the most noble among us hostage, in order to gain additional funding from DC. After begging healthcare workers to come, he says with a straight face that not charging them NY State income tax would amount to a subsidy--as if he was doing them all a favor to allow them to come to NY and work.

That they have to file with the state for income tax does not mean that they have to pay.  They can deduct expenses (with proof of receipt) and the amount of state tax if they pay an income tax to their home state.  However, NY has a very high tax.  When I lived on the East Coast (Maryland) I paid the same amount of property tax on a little house I purchased for $20,000.  Years later in Utah I paid about the same amount of property tax on a $150,000 home.  Also by definition the state income tax was 1/2 my federal income tax, and a county income tax was 1/2 the state income tax and the city income tax was one half the county income tax.

I am not a tax expert - but I suspect that anyone that receives an "income" ought to pay an income tax, even if they are religious.  However, I do not believe that a church should be taxed because of the separation of church and state and the concept that any "person" (in the corporate sense) that pays taxes has the right to be represented within the state.

When I was living in Brown's Point we had such a problem with the state of Washington that we could not hold any fundraisers on church property (like a youth car wash) or the state would sue for property tax on all the church property in the state.  The sad thing was that few other churches in Washington would bother to support the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints before the state legislature.  - I was working as a non-paid lobbyist at the time.  I have also mentioned that I had bitter exchanges with Evangelical ministers (and others) in the past in the Federal Way area.  I have been pleasantly surprised to have a friendship with you - and it has taken me some time to get use to it - sorry for some past things from my prejudices.

 

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

23 minutes ago, Traveler said:

When I was living in Brown's Point we had such a problem with the state of Washington that we could not hold any fundraisers on church property (like a youth car wash) or the state would sue for property tax on all the church property in the state.  The sad thing was that few other churches in Washington would bother to support the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints before the state legislature.  - I was working as a non-paid lobbyist at the time.  I have also mentioned that I had bitter exchanges with Evangelical ministers (and others) in the past in the Federal Way area.  I have been pleasantly surprised to have a friendship with you - and it has taken me some time to get use to it - sorry for some past things from my prejudices.

You could not be hitting much closer to home, @Traveler! I'm no legal expert, but I understand that most churches do pay property taxes. The notorious one in Burien, that imploded in the 1980s (many scandals, tremendously embarrassing) had its property remanded to the state for back property taxes. Today it's the law enforcement training campus. I've had a few trainings there and can recognize the layout and design as originally being for a large church.

Still...what a shame. I always look to the late Rev. Jerry Falwell as a model. My understanding is that he did reach out to LDS members, encouraging them to join Moral Majority. I might not preach in your ward, and you might not conduct baptisms in my sanctuary, but we can surely lobby together for religious liberty. And, fwiw, I don't believe churches should have their properties taxed. Sadly, at least in this state, that ship left the harbor long ago. I will no longer be surprised when churches are treated as special interests groups rather than non-profits (and taxed accordingly).

Edited May 12, 2020 by prisonchaplain

[Carborendum]

6 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Samaritan's Purse may have to do some legal maneuvering like this moving forward, but again, I doubt they anticipated that any state or local government would have the gall to charge them tax after receiving emergency disaster relief from them.

Just to look at the other side of the coin (as many seem to have done already)

I don't know NY tax rules.  But many states do have rules about taxing workers from out of state.  Is this any different than any other situation?  The organization may be a non-profit.  But employees of non-profits still pay income tax just like anyone else.

If NY is not doing anything different, then I'd say it really was incumbent upon the employer to let these individuals know about out-of-state taxes.

Edited May 12, 2020 by Carborendum

[Vort]

6 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Just to look at the other side of the coin (as many seem to have done already)

I don't know NY tax rules.  But many states do have rules about taxing workers from out of state.  Is this any different than any other situation?  The organization may be a non-profit.  But employees of non-profits still pay income tax just like anyone else.

If NY is not doing anything different, then I'd say it really was incumbent upon the employer to let these individuals know about out-of-state taxes.

I agree. Again, the sticking point for many of us is that lizard Cuomo characterizing the emergency workers' non-payment of state taxes as "subsidy" after having begged them to come help. Coupled with the shabby treatment that SP and its employees have received in the NY press, it seems a near-perfect example of ingratitude and entitlement.

[Carborendum]

7 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

Samaritan's Purse may have to do some legal maneuvering like this moving forward, but again, I doubt they anticipated that any state or local government would have the gall to charge them tax after receiving emergency disaster relief from them. 

So I finally got a chance to read those articles you linked to.  I believe it will be fine.

Quote

Rather than cave to Cuomo’s demands, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, Speaker Nancy Pelosi, and other members of Congress can free volunteer health workers who live outside of New York from Albany’s tax clutches by passing a bill that has already been introduced and is pending in Congress. 

-- Forbes article

It was sponsored by two Republicans.  Why will I not be surprised if the Dems prevent it from passing?

One thing about this is that I keep reading the word "volunteers" describing the workers.  Well, did they get paid or not?  If they did not get paid for any work while in NY, then NY has no claim on any of their income.

1 hour ago, Vort said:

I agree. Again, the sticking point for many of us is that lizard Cuomo characterizing the emergency workers' non-payment of state taxes as "subsidy" after having begged them to come help. Coupled with the shabby treatment that SP and its employees have received in the NY press, it seems a near-perfect example of ingratitude and entitlement.

I just read the article.

Quote

New York City Council Speaker Corey Johnson had recently demanded that the Christian charity leave the city over its biblical views on homosexuality.

“It is time for Samaritan’s Purse to leave NYC. This group, led by the notoriously bigoted, hate-spewing Franklin Graham, came at a time when our city couldn’t in good conscience turn away any offer of help. That time has passed... Their continued presence here is an affront to our values of inclusion, and is painful for all New Yorkers who care deeply about the LGBTQ community... We can’t continue allowing a group with their track record to remain here when we’re past the point they’re needed

AiYEE!!!

So, people with Biblical views on Christianity are a "necessary evil" and when the necessity ends, it's time to emphasize the evil.  Wow!

I am very proud to be a member of a Church who will actually join forces with political opponents with common interests and hold no animosity towards them (giving to an LGBTQ cause in the fight against teen suicide).  People wondered if this was hypocrisy?  No, it was Christianity.

[Guest Scott]

8 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

You could not be hitting much closer to home, @Traveler! I'm no legal expert, but I understand that most churches do pay property taxes.

Are you sure?  I thought most of them do not.  

Now I'm curious.  In which regions in the US do they have to pay property taxes?

[prisonchaplain]

5 hours ago, Scott said:

Are you sure?  I thought most of them do not.  

Now I'm curious.  In which regions in the US do they have to pay property taxes?

I thought I was--for more than 30 years I've understood that Community Chapel (Burien, WA) became state property due to back property taxes. However, I cannot verify this. The church property was sold to the state for $16 million and did become the law enforcement training center. However, there is no mention in this article of property taxes. My 20-minute internet research seems to suggest that churches are always exempt. So...color me confused, now.

Here's the story, for those interested in the sad tale of a non-denominational church that went really bad, and then imploded:  https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=19961228&slug=2367015

Edited May 13, 2020 by prisonchaplain

[Carborendum]

On 5/12/2020 at 7:55 PM, Scott said:

Are you sure?  I thought most of them do not.  

Now I'm curious.  In which regions in the US do they have to pay property taxes?

On 5/13/2020 at 1:34 AM, prisonchaplain said:

My 20-minute internet research seems to suggest that churches are always exempt. So...color me confused, now.

Churches themselves are exempt.  But...

• Certain properties that the "religious business entity" owns may not be considered part of that exemption.
• Even a religious entity must apply for an exemption certificate.  So, if they did not actually apply, then they owe taxes.