Executive Order 13817 and logistics

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Executive orders hold no power over anything other than the Executive Department.

Ooh - warning - snark incoming. 

You're absolutely correct.  Other than matters that have to do with State, Treasury, Interior, Agriculture, Justice, Commerce, Labor, Defense, Health and Human Services, Housing and Urban Development, Transportation, Energy, Education, Veterans Affairs, and Homeland Security, executive orders really have no power whatsoever. 

And with a paltry $105 trillion to spend every year, and a scant 4.3 million employees to do the executive's will, what real impact could executive orders possibly have?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_executive_departments

[/snark]

Edited February 23, 2024 by NeuroTypical

[NeuroTypical]

Digging up this fun old thread, due to recent developments.  Trump has been quite loud about tariffs and China, now China is returning fire:

https://www.mofcom.gov.cn/zwgk/zcfb/art/2024/art_3d5e990b43424e60828030f58a547b60.html

[google translate]

In accordance with the Export Control Law of the People's Republic of China and other relevant laws and regulations, in order to safeguard national security and interests, and fulfill international obligations such as non-proliferation, it has decided to strengthen export controls on relevant dual-use items to the United States.

The relevant matters are hereby announced as follows:
1. Prohibit the export of dual-use items to U.S. military users or for military use.
2. In principle, the export of gallium, germanium, antimony, and superhard materials to the United States shall not be permitted; Tighter end-user and end-use vetting for graphite dual-use items exported to the United States.

Organizations and individuals in any country or region who transfer or provide relevant dual-use items originating in the People's Republic of China to the United States in violation of the above provisions will be investigated for legal responsibility in accordance with the law. This announcement shall be officially implemented from the date of promulgation.

[Vort]

35 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Organizations and individuals in any country or region who transfer or provide relevant dual-use items originating in the People's Republic of China to the United States in violation of the above provisions will be investigated for legal responsibility in accordance with the law.

Chinese "law" is a funny (read: deeply corrupt) thing. If you think US laws are applied haphazardly and with prejudice, you ain't seen nothing until you've seen Chinese law.

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Chinese "law" is a funny (read: deeply corrupt) thing. If you think US laws are applied haphazardly and with prejudice, you ain't seen nothing until you've seen Chinese law.

Having hosted four Chinese exchange students and currently having a brother who lives in China, I can say you are correct-with a caveat. If you are law abiding and not making a commotion, you’ll be fine.  But it’s still not a place I would to reside in. 

[LDSGator]

I’m going to guess that 90% of Americans are clueless about how China works and how the people live. I’m hardly an expert either, but just due to what I said above I have a very very small grasp of how modern China works.

Again, I’m no expert, and yes, I know nothing compared to someone who actually lives there.   

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Having hosted four Chinese exchange students and currently having a brother who lives in China, I can say you are correct-with a caveat. If you are law abiding and not making a commotion, you’ll be fine.  But it’s still not a place I would to reside in. 

The short of it is: If one is from the Han people, ethnically and culturally, then you are approximately correct. As long as you do what you're "supposed" to do (according to Chinese custom), you'll probably be okay. If one is not ethnically and culturally Han, then no such protection is guaranteed. If you are not Chinese, your supposed "rights" are completely at the whim of the CCP and its operatives, which generally means that you lose. Chinese courts, for example, pretty much always side with the Chinese side in any dispute, no matter how obvious the deception or IP theft on the part of the Chinese company.

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

The short of it is: If one is from the Han people, ethnically and culturally, then you are approximately correct. As long as you do what you're "supposed" to do (according to Chinese custom), you'll probably be okay. If one is not ethnically and culturally Han, then no such protection is guaranteed. If you are not Chinese, your supposed "rights" are completely at the whim of the CCP and its operatives, which generally means that you lose. Chinese courts, for example, pretty much always side with the Chinese side in any dispute, no matter how obvious the deception or IP theft on the part of the Chinese company.

Okay. 

[LDSGator]

There’s a huge underground in China that is, thankfully going more and more mainstream. This is a tattoo that is fairly popular in China-it shows a pig with a communist hat getting butchered.  

So don’t get me wrong-China is hardly “free” but the Chinese of all backgrounds have more freedoms than the majority of Americans think they do. 

 

Edited December 3, 2024 by LDSGator

[NeuroTypical]

It's hard to google up a good history of such things, but China knows how to conduct a trade war, and has participated in several, even pre-dating Nixon's historic trip.

https://stacker.com/world/timeline-us-trade-relations-china

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

It's hard to google up a good history of such things, but China knows how to conduct a trade war, and has participated in several, even pre-dating Nixon's historic trip.

https://stacker.com/world/timeline-us-trade-relations-china

Agreed. We don't want to get into a, um, urination match with China. Dealings with China, whether economic or military, should in every case be based on solid principles and should be entered into only with full expectation of doing whatever it takes to make the effort work. Trade war? If that's what you really think is best, then go for it. But you had better not back down or get weak-willed about it. You had better get all your allied nations involved. You have to be willing to walk the walk. That's probably true in any case, but it's doubly true with China.

[Carborendum]

3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

The relevant matters are hereby announced as follows:
1. Prohibit the export of dual-use items to U.S. military users or for military use.
2. In principle, the export of gallium, germanium, antimony, and superhard materials to the United States shall not be permitted; Tighter end-user and end-use vetting for graphite dual-use items exported to the United States.

I recall that during his first term in office, Trump wanted strategic protections on what he called "rare earth minerals."  NOTE: This was a slightly different category than "rare earth metals" or "rare earth elements."

Too bad that never took off.  It seems that he was ahead of the times.

[Vort]

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I recall that during his first term in office, Trump wanted strategic protections on what he called "rare earth minerals."  NOTE: This was a slightly different category than "rare earth metals" or "rare earth elements."

Too bad that never took off.  It seems that he was ahead of the times.

Funny thing about the rare earths is that they aren't really all that rare, at least as far as their abundance in the earth's crust goes. Rather, they're difficult to refine using traditional methods. Chemically, the rare earths are the lanthanides, the upper line of the two lines of elements you often find included at the bottom of a chart of the periodic table. In addition, scandium and yttrium are usually included as rare earths, because they're chemically similar. (Scandium is a lightweight metal, the first of the so-called transition metals, just heavier than calcium and just lighter than titanium. Yttrium is the element in the same "family" as scandium, but one heavier; that is, one line below scandium.)

Why are the not-particularly-rare rare earths so valuable? It turns out that these elements just happen to have a lot of valuable properties between them. Cerium and yttrium are valuable for optical properties and polishing. Lanthanum turns out to be very useful in various metal hydride batteries. A great example is the superstrong permanent magnets that have become widely available since around the early 1990s are made primarily of neodymium as well as praseodymium and dysprosium to improve performance.

As for the distinction between rare earth minerals vs. rare earth elements or metals, I don't believe there is a functional difference in meaning. If Trump wants to protect domestic sources of rare earth minerals, he probably is not going to be thrilled about openly giving away or selling the refined forms of the elements (which are metals). I actually think such protectionism is a wise idea; I have been shocked that it has taken China as long as it has to clamp down on exporting rare earths and other such things.

[Carborendum]

5 minutes ago, Vort said:

As for the distinction between rare earth minerals vs. rare earth elements or metals, I don't believe there is a functional difference in meaning.

The phrase "rare earth minerals" was defined in the specific legislation (or was it an executive order?) that his administration put together.  It listed all the minerals.  Not all of them were elements.

Prior to that, I don't recall having heard the term before.  

[Carborendum]

On 2/14/2024 at 9:18 PM, NeuroTypical said:

Also, all of these links:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=biden+administration+battery+supply+chain&ia=web

I am so sorry.  I didn't follow up on this.  

I actually worked on a major project for that company.  We were all hyped up on the project.  We were working like gangbusters on that project.  But it got halted for no reason we could fathom.  And the company didn't tell us why.