Traveler

Does the Doctrine of the Trinity define Christianity?

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12 hours ago, Jonah said:

I understand that you believe you may become a god (in the future) as shown in Doctrine
and Covenants 132:16-17.

Doctrine and Covenants 121:32 says "According to that which was ordained in the midst
of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was ...
"

Were you already a god at this Council in the past?

By the definition given us through Jesus Christ and scripture (which cannot be broken) - those to whom the word of G-d is received are g-ds.  So the question is - do you accept the word of G-d?  And if you, in truth do - according to the witness of Christ - are you not to be numbered among "The Children of G-d?"  And if a Child of G-d are you not a g-d?  What does it mean to believe in Christ?  Is not Christ the word?  Has the word of G-d come to you?

 

The Traveler

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On 3/19/2021 at 1:30 AM, Traveler said:

By the definition given us through Jesus Christ and scripture (which cannot be broken) - those to whom the word of G-d is received are g-ds.  So the question is - do you accept the word of G-d?  And if you, in truth do - according to the witness of Christ - are you not to be numbered among "The Children of G-d?"  And if a Child of G-d are you not a g-d?  What does it mean to believe in Christ?  Is not Christ the word?  Has the word of G-d come to you?

 

The Traveler

I believe I'm an adopted son of God by faith, but not a literal procreated child of heavenly parents.

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On 3/18/2021 at 2:28 PM, Jane_Doe said:

Ditto for LDS Christians (except for not using the word "trinity").

What do you think about Joseph's teaching as recorded in History of the Church?

"Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost
are only one God! I say that is a strange God anyhow--three in one, and
one in three! It is a curious organization".

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11 hours ago, Jonah said:

I believe I'm an adopted son of God by faith, but not a literal procreated child of heavenly parents.

Who (or what) do you believe are the parents that created you in the first place?  And then left you to be adopted by someone else?

 

The Traveler

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On 3/21/2021 at 12:06 AM, Traveler said:

Who (or what) do you believe are the parents that created you in the first place?  And then left you to be adopted by someone else?

 

The Traveler

Heavenly Father created us.  I don't believe a heavenly mother was involved. The Fall
separated mankind from Him.  By faith, we are adopted back as sons.

There are a few verses in Romans chapter 8 which reveal this adoption:

12 - So, then, brothers, we are under obligation, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh
13 - for if you live according to the flesh, you are sure to die; but if you put the practices of 
body to deaths by the spirit, you will live.
14 - For all who are led by God's spirit are indeed God’s sons.
15 - For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of
adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: "Abba, Father!"

16 - The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God's children.
17 - If, then, we are children, we are also heirs-heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ
provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together.

Only those led by the spirit of God are the children of God (and joint-heirs with Christ).

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1 hour ago, Jonah said:

Heavenly Father created us.  I don't believe a heavenly mother was involved. The Fall
separated mankind from Him.  By faith, we are adopted back as sons.

There are a few verses in Romans chapter 8 which reveal this adoption:

12 - So, then, brothers, we are under obligation, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh
13 - for if you live according to the flesh, you are sure to die; but if you put the practices of 
body to deaths by the spirit, you will live.
14 - For all who are led by God's spirit are indeed God’s sons.
15 - For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of
adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: "Abba, Father!"

16 - The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God's children.
17 - If, then, we are children, we are also heirs-heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ
provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together.

Only those led by the spirit of God are the children of God (and joint-heirs with Christ).

I am currently expecting a baby this summer.  When that baby is born, whom do you believe is that baby's Father?  Whom created that baby?

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4 hours ago, Jonah said:

....

Only those led by the spirit of God are the children of God (and joint-heirs with Christ).

The question that started this little discussion (that you asked me and now I ask you) within this thread - do you believe that such ("those led by the spirit of God") are g-ds?

If you can answer this question there is a logical follow up - since you fostered the initial question - perhaps you will see what logically follows concerning the meaning of one g-d?

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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On 2/19/2021 at 12:18 PM, Traveler said:

@Jonahasked me to start a thread on this topic concerning Christianity and the Trinity Doctrine established at Nicene counsel and how that creed was used by Christian institutions impacting their society up until roughly the 16th Century.   Here is the question from the "Was Jesus Married" thread in the LDS Gospel Discussion section:

My main question is not so much concerning the specific doctrine but rather how many Traditional Christians approve the history of its impact on Christian institutions and how those institutions treated any society that rejected the Trinity Creed.  Please be prepared to answer my questions of how this creed was used historically and how Christians today view the historical consequences. 

 

The Traveler

I am a former member of the Worldwide Church of God

and I was against the idea of the Trinity for most of my life......

but now.... I have no problem with the idea of an Ancient of Days the Heavenly Father who may be composed of absolutely fundamental energy that may correspond to the energy of the original "Eleven" dimensional space time continuum.  The Ancient of Days the Holy Spirit may perhaps be composed of somewhat less 'fundamental" tenth dimensional energy and may be able to walk inside of... .The Heavenly Father as shown to, if I remember correctly, the gifted Kat Kerr and the gifted near death experiencer Kevin Zadai..... then... .perhaps Messiah Yeshua - Jesus who has a physical body....... may be able to step inside of both the Ancient of Days the Heavenly Father and / or the Ancient of Days the Holy Spirit.......   which would be one possible fulfillment of Jesus being in the FAther.. .and  the Father in Jesus and the Holy Spirit being in Jesus.. .and Jesus being in the Holy Spirit........ and all of us being inside all three of them once we are resurrected?????????

 

This question is far, far, far, far above my Security Clearance Level with Messiah Yeshua - Jesus but I definitely think that the Trinity Doctrine was used to exaggerate accusations and cause unnecessary division within the Body of Jesus /The Bride of Messiah/ the church.  

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On 3/31/2021 at 2:02 PM, DennisTate said:

I am a former member of the Worldwide Church of God

and I was against the idea of the Trinity for most of my life......

but now.... I have no problem with the idea of an Ancient of Days the Heavenly Father who may be composed of absolutely fundamental energy that may correspond to the energy of the original "Eleven" dimensional space time continuum.  The Ancient of Days the Holy Spirit may perhaps be composed of somewhat less 'fundamental" tenth dimensional energy and may be able to walk inside of... .The Heavenly Father as shown to, if I remember correctly, the gifted Kat Kerr and the gifted near death experiencer Kevin Zadai..... then... .perhaps Messiah Yeshua - Jesus who has a physical body....... may be able to step inside of both the Ancient of Days the Heavenly Father and / or the Ancient of Days the Holy Spirit.......   which would be one possible fulfillment of Jesus being in the FAther.. .and  the Father in Jesus and the Holy Spirit being in Jesus.. .and Jesus being in the Holy Spirit........ and all of us being inside all three of them once we are resurrected?????????

 

This question is far, far, far, far above my Security Clearance Level with Messiah Yeshua - Jesus but I definitely think that the Trinity Doctrine was used to exaggerate accusations and cause unnecessary division within the Body of Jesus /The Bride of Messiah/ the church.  

Perhaps I can help you - a little.  The concept of eleven dimensional space time comes to theoretical physics through super string theory.  However, the reason that 11 dimensions stand out in string theory is because one of the possible explanations of our universe via the Big Bang theory comes from the mathematical convenience  that the Big Bang was the result of an 11 dimensional space time continuum collapse into our current 3 dimensional space time.  One of the problems with all this is that time cannot be proven to be a mathematical dimension - plus under Einstein's theories that are highly respected - time is not continuous.  

Contrary to the thinking of some that dive into the fantasy side of speculation - the science and mathematics of a superior being must come from higher dimensions to have superior knowledge and power over beings of lessor dimensions.  This simple element of reality dictates that a superior G-d must of necessity have physical dimensions.   In short - a physical dimensional body.  That such a bein also has other (spiritual) dimensions is theatrically possible and indeed a necessity for a superior being.  The point being that from all we know from science - a superior G-d  must have physical dimension to dominate our universe's space time.  Plus the single example of G-d existing in our space time is Jesus Christ or as you implied Messiah Yeshua had both a physical body and resurrected physical body undistinguishable by sight from our own - which we are told in scripture is an exact copy of G-d in plurality. 

Just for fun - one final idea from someone that used to work on projects for the USA government (military) that required a security clearance.  Technically security clearance levels are not so much a matter of the information as it is the need to know.  So to say that something is above your security clearance level is an indication of your individual "NEED" to know.  But there is a caveat to the need to know that is offset by a level of trust.   Jesus spoke in terms of this when he said: "this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."  Which implies that we all have a need to know.  So if it is above our security clearance it can only be because our understanding and opinions cannot be trusted.

 

The Traveler

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3 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Perhaps I can help you - a little.  The concept of eleven dimensional space time comes to theoretical physics through super string theory.  However, the reason that 11 dimensions stand out in string theory is because one of the possible explanations of our universe via the Big Bang theory comes from the mathematical convenience  that the Big Bang was the result of an 11 dimensional space time continuum collapse into our current 3 dimensional space time.  One of the problems with all this is that time cannot be proven to be a mathematical dimension - plus under Einstein's theories that are highly respected - time is not continuous.  

Contrary to the thinking of some that dive into the fantasy side of speculation - the science and mathematics of a superior being must come from higher dimensions to have superior knowledge and power over beings of lessor dimensions.  This simple element of reality dictates that a superior G-d must of necessity have physical dimensions.   In short - a physical dimensional body.  That such a bein also has other (spiritual) dimensions is theatrically possible and indeed a necessity for a superior being.  The point being that from all we know from science - a superior G-d  must have physical dimension to dominate our universe's space time.  Plus the single example of G-d existing in our space time is Jesus Christ or as you implied Messiah Yeshua had both a physical body and resurrected physical body undistinguishable by sight from our own - which we are told in scripture is an exact copy of G-d in plurality. 

Just for fun - one final idea from someone that used to work on projects for the USA government (military) that required a security clearance.  Technically security clearance levels are not so much a matter of the information as it is the need to know.  So to say that something is above your security clearance level is an indication of your individual "NEED" to know.  But there is a caveat to the need to know that is offset by a level of trust.   Jesus spoke in terms of this when he said: "this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."  Which implies that we all have a need to know.  So if it is above our security clearance it can only be because our understanding and opinions cannot be trusted.

 

The Traveler

 

The Traveler...... YOUR REPLY IS BRILLIANT... .and the best......  reply that I think I have ever gotten since I began to put this idea out there several years ago.  I got into this basic topic with so many Atheists and Agnostics that I wrote a blog to summarize the position that I was in so far:

 

www.CarbonBias.blogspot.ca/

 

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

May go into my suspicions that we may be living in something like a Multiverse.......

that our Creator formed in order to fulfill all that is implied by Ezekiel chapter thirty seven.....

Revelations chapter twenty

Romans chapters, nine, ten and eleven.............?

 

Or would you  prefer that I copy and paste your message over to this other discussion...and go off in that possible direction from this other thread?

 

 

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13 minutes ago, DennisTate said:

 

The Traveler...... YOUR REPLY IS BRILLIANT... .and the best......  reply that I think I have ever gotten since I began to put this idea out there several years ago.  I got into this basic topic with so many Atheists and Agnostics that I wrote a blog to summarize the position that I was in so far:

 

www.CarbonBias.blogspot.ca/

 

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

May go into my suspicions that we may be living in something like a Multiverse.......

that our Creator formed in order to fulfill all that is implied by Ezekiel chapter thirty seven.....

Revelations chapter twenty

Romans chapters, nine, ten and eleven.............?

 

Or would you  prefer that I copy and paste your message over to this other discussion...and go off in that possible direction from this other thread?

 

 

You may quote me are use my ideas as you like.  But I caution you to be aware that the possibility that our "known" universe is a subset of a universe of more dimensions is very different from the idea of multiverse.  In that multiverse is made up of many universes with the same or similar dimensions of space-time.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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30 minutes ago, Traveler said:

You may quote me are use my ideas as you like.  But I caution you to be aware that the possibility that our "known" universe is a subset of a universe of more dimensions is very different from the idea of multiverse.  In that multiverse is made up of many universes with the same or similar dimensions of space-time.

 

The Traveler

Excellent... thank you... I felt it was best to copy and paste your response here, (well actually scroll down to the bottom of page three of replies... ).... :

 

Edited by DennisTate
I messed up the link....

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On 2/19/2021 at 11:18 AM, Traveler said:

@Jonahasked me to start a thread on this topic concerning Christianity and the Trinity Doctrine established at Nicene counsel and how that creed was used by Christian institutions impacting their society up until roughly the 16th Century.   Here is the question from the "Was Jesus Married" thread in the LDS Gospel Discussion section:

My main question is not so much concerning the specific doctrine but rather how many Traditional Christians approve the history of its impact on Christian institutions and how those institutions treated any society that rejected the Trinity Creed.  Please be prepared to answer my questions of how this creed was used historically and how Christians today view the historical consequences. 

 

The Traveler

the impact of the roman all male version plus its overlay and definition by greek concepts foreign to scripture has been to create more confusion . modern christianity has resulted. a mess. 

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13 hours ago, Traveler said:

You may quote me are use my ideas as you like.  But I caution you to be aware that the possibility that our "known" universe is a subset of a universe of more dimensions is very different from the idea of multiverse.  In that multiverse is made up of many universes with the same or similar dimensions of space-time.

 

The Traveler

He and His feminine spirit and all His (their) sons and daughters have and partake an entirely different nature than the nature of this universe, which belongs to other (satanic) elohim. 

 

Edited by e v e

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On 4/2/2021 at 11:01 PM, e v e said:

He and His feminine spirit and all His (their) sons and daughters have and partake an entirely different nature than the nature of this universe, which belongs to other (satanic) elohim. 

 

Upon what are you basing this assumption and why are you so sure your assumptions are not frivolous  speculations?

 

The Traveler

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