Book of Mormon Reading Group?

[Jamie123]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

A suggestion: Start by reading the Testimony of Three Witnesses and Testimony of Eight Witnesses, then read the frontispiece (the page that begins, "The Book of Mormon: An account written by the hand of Mormon upon plates taken from the plates of Nephi. Wherefore, etc."). The testimonies make up one rather short page, as does the frontispiece, and the frontispiece is actually a part of the translation of the Book of Mormon, having been written by Mormon (I assume).

I've just finished reading the introductory material. Joseph Smith records finding the breastplate, the seer stones and the golden plates in the hole under the rock. I may be jumping the gun here, but I definitely remember something about a sword too. Where did this come from?

Edited September 8, 2023 by Jamie123

[zil2]

20 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I've just finished reading the introductory material. Joseph Smith records finding the breastplate, the seer stones and the golden plates in the hole under the rock. I may be jumping the gun here, but I definitely remember something about a sword too. Where did this come from?

Perhaps D&C 17 and/or related history, additional history source.

And this may be best of all.

[Jamie123]

4 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Perhaps D&C 17 and/or related history, additional history source.

And this may be best of all.

Interesting. Maybe there were other things in the hole, but Joseph didn't think they were relevant to the story he was telling.

[zil2]

25 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Maybe there were other things in the hole, but Joseph didn't think they were relevant to the story he was telling.

Sometimes I have to remind myself to consider it from his (Joseph's) point of view.  1. Moroni repeated the same things to Joseph 3 times in one night, and then again a 4th time the next day.  So clearly God was not giving Joseph any extra memory-recall assistance.  2. Joseph had staggeringly important work to do, compared to which, details of the sword of Laban, Liahona, etc. were pure trivia - a waste of his time to relate and ours to learn.  3. Joseph was persecuted for everything.  He probably thought it best to stick with what's necessary and not cast even tiny pearls before swine.

I also sometimes have to remind myself that we are God's work.  He's not trying to build a building or a city, not trying to figure out the perfect set of laws, or compose the perfect piece of music.  He's trying to perfect each individual one of us, and for that, there are no shortcuts: He can't skip over the flawed person who can't remember to include every detail (or can't even remember every detail); He can't "artificially" enhance the individual just "to get the job done" - because the individual is the job, their agency, their development in overcoming all these things we wish magic would just take care of - those are the whole point.  Helps me keep in mind that imperfect people are the point and therefore it's OK when God allows people's imperfections to seemingly slow or even hamper the work.  Helps me feel a little less self-critical (but not too much).

[askandanswer]

56 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Interesting. Maybe there were other things in the hole, but Joseph didn't think they were relevant to the story he was telling.

i recall once hearing or reading that Brigham Young said there were wagon loads of records in Cumorah but I don't remember the source, and I don't think I've ever heard or ready anything similar from anyone else.

[askandanswer]

3 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

i recall once hearing or reading that Brigham Young said there were wagon loads of records in Cumorah but I don't remember the source, and I don't think I've ever heard or ready anything similar from anyone else.

Here

https://emp.byui.edu/ANDERSONR/itc/Book _of_Mormon/11_mormon/mormon_01wagonloads_by.htm

and a more scholarly version here from the Journal of BOok of Mormon Studies

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1360&context=jbms

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by askandanswer

[zil2]

3 hours ago, Vort said:

the frontispiece is actually a part of the translation of the Book of Mormon, having been written by Mormon (I assume).

After just having read it, I'm guessing at least the 2nd paragraph had to have been written by Moroni, because I don't think he knew while Mormon was still alive that he (Moroni) would be abridging the Jaredite records....  Even the first paragraph suggests Moroni was at least around and he and Mormon had discussed what Moroni would do after Mormon was gone...

[Jamie123]

40 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Here

https://emp.byui.edu/ANDERSONR/itc/Book _of_Mormon/11_mormon/mormon_01wagonloads_by.htm

and a more scholarly version here from the Journal of BOok of Mormon Studies

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1360&context=jbms

 

I can't read those words without hearing Handel's Messiah in my head!

[askandanswer]

9 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I can't read those words without hearing Handel's Messiah in my head!

Movement 37: Psalm 68:11

The Lord gave the word; great was the company of the preachers. 

That part?

https://www.thetabernaclechoir.org/messiah/libretto-with-scripture-links.html

[askandanswer]

Just now, askandanswer said:

Movement 37: Psalm 68:11

The Lord gave the word; great was the company of the preachers. 

That part?

https://www.thetabernaclechoir.org/messiah/libretto-with-scripture-links.html

Or maybe

Movement 39: Romans 10:18;

                           Psalm 19:4

Their sound is gone out into all lands, and their words unto the ends of the world.

[zil2]

Revelation 11:15

Quote

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 Part 2 # 39 (in my recording of it) - Chorus: Hallelujah. 

Edited September 8, 2023 by zil2

[Jamie123]

I was thinking of the Hallelujah Chorus "The kingdom of this world has become the kingdom of our Lord and if His Christ and He shall reign for ever and ever (Sopranos) And He shall reign for ever and ever...etc" (which is Revelation 11:15)

[Jamie123]

1 minute ago, zil2 said:

Revelation 11:15

 Part 2 # 39 (in my recording of it) - Chorus: Hallelujah. 

Ah you got there first Zil! I was in a performance of that a few years ago (singing tenor)

[Jamie123]

This is going way off topic, but I thought it was far too funny not to post!

 

[askandanswer]

My method of study at the moment is to read and then stop to take notes. Here are my notes for today. I plan on doing about half an hour a day. I’ve been able to do more than that today because its Saturday. It will be difficult to do this much during the week.

Today I got about half way through the title page. I realise that this means that I will not keep pace with the planned schedule. I’ll deal with that by jumping from wherever I am at the end of the week to the start of the reading for the following week.

This font is quotes from the Book of Mormon, this text are my thoughts, written without the slightest aid at all from anything even remotely resembling a fountain pen (whatever that is).

Notes from the title page

also of the Lamanites

I think it might be going a bit too far to say that this is an abridgement of the record of the Lamanites. The Lamanites do get mentioned and discussed, but they are not the main focus. If this can be considered as an abridgement of the record of the Lamanites, it would suggest that the record keepers were not fully compliant with the divine instructions that led to the records being created. I can see how this could be interpreted as a record to the Lamanites but it is not as easy to see how it could be considered a record of the Lamanites. Perhaps it might be more accurate to say that this is an abridgement of the Nephite's record of aspects of Lamanite history, or something like that because as far as I know, the only original content from a Lamanite is the preaching of Samuel.

Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation

This raises questions about the number and the type/quality of revelation that guided the abridgement of the records. On the one hand, it could take a great many revelations to accurately/properly decide what to include and what to exclude from 1,000 years worth of records. On the other hand, maybe God and the Holy Ghost just gave some general guidelines every now and then as to how to go about the task. Perhaps a reasonable comparison might be the number and quality of revelations that Joseph Smith received while establishing the church. Many of them are quite detailed and specific, and could not be fairly described as general guidelines.

These commandments and the spirit of prophecy and revelation also raise questions about whether Moroni was mostly an author, an editor, or a voice to the dictates of the Spirit in much the same way that Joseph and his scribes were. We know from other examples that when God has found an effective technique, He likes to reuse it, and perhaps this is what He did with Joseph Smith after trying it out with Moroni. However, there are sufficient variations from this idea of God reusing the same technique to make this an unreliable guide for explaining God’s behaviour and decisions.

Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed

What became the Bible was effectively sealed and hidden from most of the world, but it was definitely not hid up unto the Lord. Interestingly, there is a fair bit of overlap in the periods that the gold plates and the origins of the Bible were effectively sealed up from all or most people.

To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof

When we look at how the Bible came forth, over a much longer period of time, perhaps we could say the same thing - that it was by the gift and power of God. On the other hand, perhaps it would make for an interesting case study to see how God's close involvement with the coming forth of one set of scripture led to a much faster coming forth of that scripture, compared with the much slower, more gradual coming forth of another set of scripture for which there is less evidence of God's involvement.

Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord,

In most instances, I would have some ethical concerns about concealing the word of God and trying hard to make sure it would be unavailable, but when God says to do that, then it becomes ok. We can see from the effectiveness and efficiency with which the sacred writings of the early Christians were destroyed that God had good reason to be concerned about the safety and protection of the gold plates.

The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.

Does this also apply to the interpretations provided by,or confirmed by, Professor Anthon and Doctor Mitchell?

the people of Jared,

This is interesting. I'm guessing that it was Jared who provided leadership for the people and Jared's brother who provided the spiritual leadership but they came to be called the people of Jared and not the people of Mahonri Moriancumer.  Perhaps part of the reason why they became known as the people of Jared is that the reign of the Jaredite kings started with one of the sons of Jared. Its interesting that the people came to be associated with the person who was probably their temporal, rather than their spiritual leader.

 

 

[askandanswer]

2 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

This is going way off topic, but I thought it was far too funny not to post!

 

I note the monks have a similar dress sense as the Ku Klux Klan

[Jamie123]

7 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I note the monks have a similar dress sense as the Ku Klux Klan

Those guys spook me right out. Something about the eye-holes. ( Yes I know they stand for a very bad cause, but I think they'd still spook me even if they didn't!)

[Jamie123]

20 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

What became the Bible was effectively sealed and hidden from most of the world, but it was definitely not hid up unto the Lord. Interestingly, there is a fair bit of overlap in the periods that the gold plates and the origins of the Bible were effectively sealed up from all or most people.

You're right of course - like I said before, prior to the Reformation the Bible was inaccessible even to many of the clergy, let alone their flocks. But I wonder how much different this was in Jesus' time. I read somewhere that illiteracy in those days was something like 98% and even Jesus may have been illiterate (which is nonsense of course because he read from the scroll in the synagogue). Books in any case had to be written out by hand, at great expense, so only a few very rich people owned many of them. But those were scrolls - the BoM is all about metal plates, and I wonder how many people had access to those, even when they weren't hidden?

It brings it home to me how lucky we are these days. I own at least 10 Bibles, 4 different translations, some with the Apocrypha, some with extensive commentaries. And I'm ashamed to admit that some days I can't be bothered to read any of them!

[zil2]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

These commandments and the spirit of prophecy and revelation also raise questions about whether Moroni was mostly an author, an editor, or a voice to the dictates of the Spirit in much the same way that Joseph and his scribes were. We know from other examples that when God has found an effective technique, He likes to reuse it, and perhaps this is what He did with Joseph Smith after trying it out with Moroni.

For Jamie's sake I'll point out that I think you mean Mormon here where you put Moroni... (While I suspect Moroni wrote at least part of the title page text, the revelations referred to would be (1) (perhaps) all the authors of the B of M, (2) (certainly and mostly) Mormon in his abridgement, (3) (also) Moroni is his smaller portion of that work, (4) (maybe, but probably not) Joseph Smith.)

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

but they came to be called the people of Jared and not the people of Mahonri Moriancumer

Probably by unanimous vote: "Mahonri Moriancumerites my eye," one fellow was heard to mutter as he dropped his ballot in the box.

[pam]

I'm in.  

I'll ask the question.  Jaime are you now actually investigating the Church or just want to read the Book of Mormon for some understanding?  I'm just curious.  I know you've been with the forum for quite a long time now.  

 

[pam]

I didn't catch but when are we starting this? I'm old school and I still use my quad.  I'm leaving on vacation Monday so I'll take it with me if we are starting this soon.  

[Vort]

27 minutes ago, pam said:

I didn't catch but when are we starting this? I'm old school and I still use my quad.  I'm leaving on vacation Monday so I'll take it with me if we are starting this soon.  

Tomorrow. At least, that's the reading schedule Zil came up with.

[Jamie123]

2 hours ago, pam said:

I'm in.  

I'll ask the question.  Jaime are you now actually investigating the Church or just want to read the Book of Mormon for some understanding?  I'm just curious.  I know you've been with the forum for quite a long time now.  

 

If by "investigating" you mean meeting with missionaries and attending LDS services, then no. I have gone through all of that, but about 30 years ago. For a long time I've thought I had good reasons to think the Church is not true, but my interactions with LDS have (nearly) always been so positive that its not easy to walk away completely.

Its come home to me recently that there's a lot I still don't really understand, and even if I'm going to stay a nonmember, it wouldn't hurt to read the entire BoM. Also this past year has been so horrible and i think a new project like this will help me focus again. I love everyone here on this forum, which is why I've been in-and-out of it for so long. And I'm really thankful to everyone who's joining me for this exercise.

 

[Jamie123]

5 hours ago, pam said:

I know you've been with the forum for quite a long time now.  

You're right. I just checked my profile and I first joined in Feb 2009. That's fourteen and a half years!

P.S. correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only other nonmember who's been here as long as I have is prisonchaplain.

P.P.S. And possibly Godless too.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Jamie123

[zil2]

9 hours ago, pam said:

I didn't catch but when are we starting this?

This post has the schedule:

If that doesn't take you straight to it, scroll page 1 for a post with a long table of dates and chapters.