Book of Mormon Reading Group: 25 Sep - 01 Oct 2023 (2 Nephi 10 - 2 Nephi 28)

[zil2]

Please see the Book of Mormon Reading Group thread for details (and discussion of 1 Nephi 1 - 5).  Our goal is to read the Book of Mormon by the end of the year.  I'll make a new post before each Monday so that it's ready to go - weeks go from Monday to Sunday for our purposes.

This week's schedule:

Date	Read Through	Day of Week
Sep 25	2 Nephi 11	Monday
Sep 26	2 Nephi 15	Tuesday
Sep 27	2 Nephi 19	Wednesday
Sep 28	2 Nephi 23	Thursday
Sep 29	2 Nephi 25	Friday
Sep 30	2 Nephi 26	Saturday
Oct 1	2 Nephi 28	Sunday

 

Last Week: Book of Mormon Reading Group: 18 Sep - 24 Sep 2023 (1 Nephi 19 - 2 Nephi 9)

Thread Index

Edited September 30, 2023 by zil2

[zil2]

2 Nephi 10

v14: The greatest tragedy to befall the Americas is when, nation by nation, we reject our King (Jesus Christ).

v23: Cheer up! The Lord won't forget you, and you are free to choose eternal life or everlasting death - whichever you prefer.

2 Nephi 11

v4: All things typify Christ - Part 4 of the talk I'm about to link is amazing in this regard.  The whole talk is one of the best I've ever heard.  It's longish (30 minutes - a BYU devotional), but I listen to it at 2x - and this is one of the rare ones I recommend listening to (I'm a reader more than a listener), but the way he delivers the talk is significant (and he's pretty funny)...

“True Doctrine, Understood, Changes Attitudes and Behavior” by Todd B. Parker

V4+: We should delight in the things of the Lord.  (Right now, Klaw is delighting in the spring-style door stop... )

Edited September 25, 2023 by zil2

[zil2]

2 Nephi 12

@Jamie123, we believe verse 2 is prophesying of the temple in Salt Lake. And that this:

Quote

...for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

...is saying that in the Millennium, Christ will rule the government from Zion (the new Jerusalem, which will be in / around Independence, Missouri) and the Church from Jerusalem (the old one).

v5+: When we go astray, we lose the Lord's guidance, so don't go astray.

v22: Who cares what people think?  Follow the Lord.

2 Nephi 13

The fate of those who rebel against God.

v4-5, 12: Am I the only one who feels like this is already the case (despite having a senile POTUS)?

v10: A little hope for those trying to follow Christ.

Just stay faithful, cuz the consequences for not doing so are icky....

2 Nephi 14

...but things will be good for those who love and obey the Lord.

2 Nephi 15

Don't be wild!

Exercise good judgement, be righteous, regard the work of the Lord.

v18: Quit dragging your sins around! (Love the imagery here.)

v23: Sounds like our day, too!

v26-30: @Jamie123, we believe Isaiah was seeing the modern world, with things like trains, cars, and air travel, and did his best to describe what he was seeing.  The ensign to the nations is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Be humble, repent, follow Christ.

[Carborendum]

22 hours ago, zil2 said:

v14: The greatest tragedy to befall the Americas is when, nation by nation, we reject our King (Jesus Christ).

The thing about law is that we cannot really have justice and order balanced with mercy and tolerance without one very important quality:  REASONABLENESS.  This is a very important characteristic of virtually every law that is of significant importance.  How far is too far?  How much is too much? 

I recently heard about a case where a policeman hassled a college student for littering.  He had set his backpack down to ride his motorcycle around an empty parking lot.  By a plain reading of the law, that "could" be considered littering.  But it included a standard of "reasonableness."  I have been surprised by how many laws depend on this principle.  There is a great deal.

That is why it is almost impossible to legally determine if a book or performance is "inappropriate" for children.  People are refusing to accept "reasonable limits" on what children should be exposed to.  The same limits that have been the same perfectly accepted standards for a century or more.  And they aren't just saying, hey, let's loosen up a bit.  They're saying you have no right to even consider it.  This is what happens when religion is abandoned.

If you were to gather 100 random people who had NEVER been exposed to any sort of religion, there would be absolutely no sense of "reasonableness."  Religion is what defines reasonableness in a civilized society.  Without it there is really very little that can be considered reasonable/unreasonable.

While it is true that animals exhibit certain codes of behavior, they only deal with life and death.  Liberty and property are not even concepts to them. Those were always based on might makes right.

Humans didn't understand the idea of equality or liberty until the Bible declared that men and women were created in the image of God.

Religions have been the earliest sources of laws and socially acceptable patterns of behavior since hominids first roamed the earth.  Before then there was only the fear of death or the sense of security from premature death that kept societies together.

Today, we see some societies that have abandoned religion almost completely.  Those nations aren't doing too well.  Other nations who were once religious have only recently begun to lose their sense of right and wrong.  Thus they will soon lose the concept of reasonableness.

[zil2]

16 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Liberty and property are not even concepts to them.

Klaw disagrees.

[Jamie123]

5 hours ago, zil2 said:

v26-30: @Jamie123, we believe Isaiah was seeing the modern world, with things like trains, cars, and air travel, and did his best to describe what he was seeing. 

Interesting - where does that interpretation come from?

[Jamie123]

5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Humans didn't understand the idea of equality or liberty until the Bible declared that men and women were created in the image of God.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can think of alternative explanations. Mankind's success has always been contingent upon people working together. When a group of men went out to hunt a mastodon, they knew they would only be successful if each man did his part. And each man would be more likely to do his part well if he knew he had the support and security of belonging to the group. A hunting team in which all the members were happy would have an evolutionary advantage over one where a few of the strongest acted like jerks to everyone else.

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

Interesting - where does that interpretation come from?

Good question.   I'd have to do research - I remember reading it in a manual, hearing it in class, but I couldn't tell you who originally said it.

[zil2]

3 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Interesting - where does that interpretation come from?

This is the only documented version I could find:

Quote

Elder LeGrand Richards, a great apostle-missionary ministering twenty-seven centuries after Isaiah, gave these verses a prophetic application in modern days: “Since there were no such things as trains and airplanes in that day, Isaiah could hardly have mentioned them by name, but he seems to have described them in unmistakable words. How better could ‘their horses’ hoofs be counted like flint, and their wheel like a ‘whirlwind’ than in the modern train? How better could ‘Their roaring . . . be like a lion’ than in the roar of the airplane? Trains and airplanes do not stop for night. Therefore, was not Isaiah justified in saying ‘none shall slumber nor sleep; neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed, nor the latchet of their shoes be broken’? With this manner of transportation the Lord can really ‘hiss unto them from the end of the earth,’ that ‘they shall come with speed swiftly’” (Marvelous Work and a Wonder, 230).

(I copied that from Verse by Verse The Old Testament Volume 2 by Andrew C. Skinner, D. Kelly Ogden - the entry for Isaiah 5.)

Edited September 27, 2023 by zil2

[Carborendum]

On 9/26/2023 at 3:59 PM, Jamie123 said:

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I can think of alternative explanations. Mankind's success has always been contingent upon people working together. When a group of men went out to hunt a mastodon, they knew they would only be successful if each man did his part. And each man would be more likely to do his part well if he knew he had the support and security of belonging to the group. A hunting team in which all the members were happy would have an evolutionary advantage over one where a few of the strongest acted like jerks to everyone else.

Yes, you're correct.  I think you may have misread what I wrote.

[zil2]

2 Nephi 16

v8: Volunteer to serve the Lord; or at least accept the call.   (And do it without worrying what it entails - if the Lord is giving the assignment, then trust him and do whatever is assigned.)

v9+: Don't be blind, deaf, slow, or hard-hearted.

2 Nephi 17

When the Lord tells you not to worry about what looks like impending disaster, trust him.   I have an experience with this, though it was just an impending deadline.   When I was Relief Society President, the Bishop assigned me to make some appointments for us to visit some families in the ward (I was to select the families).  I was praying to know which families we should visit and I got a clear impression: "wait".  It seemed strange, but I waited.  For a while.  The day for our visits was approaching and I felt like I couldn't wait any longer, so I set an appointment.  I don't remember how soon after that, but very soon, the Bishop called and told me something had come up and he wouldn't be free until later in the evening and we'd have to do fewer appointments - maybe just one.  So I had to reschedule.  I should have waited.

2 Nephi 18

v1: All who have been tempted to name their son Maher-shalal-hash-baz raise your hands.

(also chapter 17): Don't ally yourself with the wicked instead of turning to the Lord.  Rejoice in the Lord, not in the destruction of your enemies.

v19: Stay away from all things occult.  Turn to God instead.

v19-20: Turn to God. Guidance should be in harmony with scripture (the law and the testimony) and be filled with light.

2 Nephi 19

Handel, anyone?

v4: Christ can break the yokes, burdens, staffs, and oppressor's rods that cause us personal grief.

v9+: Be humble.  Repent.

v16+: Don't abuse authority.

v17+: Don't do that bad stuff.

[Jamie123]

16 hours ago, zil2 said:

2 Nephi 16

v8: Volunteer to serve the Lord; or at least accept the call.   (And do it without worrying what it entails - if the Lord is giving the assignment, then trust him and do whatever is assigned.)

v9+: Don't be blind, deaf, slow, or hard-hearted.

2 Nephi 17

When the Lord tells you not to worry about what looks like impending disaster, trust him.   I have an experience with this, though it was just an impending deadline.   When I was Relief Society President, the Bishop assigned me to make some appointments for us to visit some families in the ward (I was to select the families).  I was praying to know which families we should visit and I got a clear impression: "wait".  It seemed strange, but I waited.  For a while.  The day for our visits was approaching and I felt like I couldn't wait any longer, so I set an appointment.  I don't remember how soon after that, but very soon, the Bishop called and told me something had come up and he wouldn't be free until later in the evening and we'd have to do fewer appointments - maybe just one.  So I had to reschedule.  I should have waited.

2 Nephi 18

v1: All who have been tempted to name their son Maher-shalal-hash-baz raise your hands.

(also chapter 17): Don't ally yourself with the wicked instead of turning to the Lord.  Rejoice in the Lord, not in the destruction of your enemies.

v19: Stay away from all things occult.  Turn to God instead.

v19-20: Turn to God. Guidance should be in harmony with scripture (the law and the testimony) and be filled with light.

2 Nephi 19

Handel, anyone?

Wonderful stuff. This part of Isaiah always makes me think of Christmas. It is nearly always read as part of the "Nine Lessons and Carols" service. I think of the church lit by candlelight. Practicing the tenor lines, and trying to find someone else who sings tenor to sit next to in the choir. (My reading of musical notation is pretty much limited to "here we go up, here we go down", and once I start following the sopranos it's hard to get back on track.) Mince pies and mulled wine (and hot chocolate for the kids and those driving). Walking home in the crisp winter air. Kids excited 'coz it won't be long before Santa comes! Oh the memories!

[zil2]

2 Nephi 20

Just stay on the Lord's good side.   The Lord may use the wicked to punish his people who have turned away from him, but those same wicked which he used will also be punished eventually unless they repent.  (So repent early and often. )

2 Nephi 21

D&C 113:1-6 has some interpretations of things in Isaiah 11 (2 Nephi 21).

v6-9: Cuddling with a lion is high on my Millennium to-do list...

Good things to come for the righteous.

2 Nephi 22

Sing praises.  Even if you can't sing.

The Lord's anger is easily turned away, with sincere repentance.

2 Nephi 23

Flee Babylon!  (In other words, give up your sins, turn to the Lord, be humble, repent.)

v22: Part of the Lord being merciful to his people appears to require the wicked to perish.  (Don't be wicked!)

 

...to be continued in tomorrow's reading.

Edited September 29, 2023 by zil2

[Jamie123]

One thing that jumped out at me was the mention of "satyrs" 23:21 which are from Greek myth. The NIV has "wild goats". Also "dragons in their pleasant palaces" - in the NIV this is "jackals in their luxurious palaces". Quick Googling tells me that this Hebrew  "tannim" (plural, jackals or hyenas) which is easily confused with "tannin" (sing., dragon, sea monster or snake). But why would either live in a luxury palaces?

[Vort]

"Pleasant palaces" refers to various public buildings used by privileged government functionaries and the higher classes of people in Babylon (as well as other ancient empires). Those outward signs of opulence (and therefore decadence) will be left prey to savage beasts and monsters. I believe that's the general gist of things at this point of Isaiah.

[zil2]

43 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

One thing that jumped out at me was the mention of "satyrs" 23:21 which are from Greek myth. The NIV has "wild goats". Also "dragons in their pleasant palaces" - in the NIV this is "jackals in their luxurious palaces". Quick Googling tells me that this Hebrew  "tannim" (plural, jackals or hyenas) which is easily confused with "tannin" (sing., dragon, sea monster or snake). But why would either live in a luxury palaces?

Here's what Verse by Verse The Old Testament Volume 2 by Andrew C. Skinner, D. Kelly Ogden has to say about the satyrs:

Quote

Isaiah poetically employs two fictional beasts usually associated with superstitious traditions in this description of desolation. "Satyrs" are in Hebrew seirim, meaning "hairy" or "rough" ones.  In mythology a satyr is half man and half goat.  "Dragons" are jackals or wild dogs.

I think what @Vort said.  "their" is not the dragons', but the Babylonians'.  To re-translate starting in verse 21: "But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there [in destroyed Babylon]; and the Babylonians' houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell in Babylon, and satyrs shall dance in Babylon.  22 And wild beasts of the islands shall cry in Babylon's desolate houses, and dragons in Babylon's pleasant palaces; for Babylon's time is near to come, and Babylon's day shall not be prolonged.  For I will destroy Babylon speedily; yea, for I will be merciful unto my people, but the wicked shall perish."

Edited September 29, 2023 by zil2

[zil2]

2 Nephi 24

...continued from yesterday (ch 23).

v3: while this addresses the Babylonian captivity and also Millennial rest, it can be seen more personally than those - the Lord offers us rest, when we follow him.

Bad things in store for Team Wicked - don't join them.  Flee Babylon and come to Zion instead.

2 Nephi 25

Basically, just believe in Jesus Christ!

v23: Someone on this forum once pointed out the connection between the "after all we can do" here to Alma 24:11, where the people of king Lamoni (Lamanites taught by Ammon, a Nephite) had buried their weapons and refused even to defend themselves after their conversion to the gospel, and their king (Lamoni's son) says: "...since it has been all that we could do ... to repent of all our sins...".  Some people use this 2 Nephi verse to claim the Church believes in salvation by works, but we don't.  We do believe that God requires us to do stuff to show our commitment to him, including repent, but the stuff can't save us, it can only demonstrate our faith (which may help convert others), change our own hearts (which will help convert us), and demonstrate our love of God.

2 Nephi 10:24 hints at the same idea proposed in the linking of above two scriptures:

Quote

24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

First a reconciliation (repentance, faith) and then grace.

v25: I sometimes think that just as the law of Moses was to help folks prepare for the first coming of Christ, so too Christ's gospel is to help us prepare for his second coming, after which there will be an even higher law instituted.

 

I have decided Klaw is an instrument in the Lord's hand to prove whether I will continue scripture study despite distractions, having to contort my arms to get at the keyboard, and even if I only have one arm and can't use the desk surface directly in front of me...

[Carborendum]

On 9/29/2023 at 2:33 PM, Jamie123 said:

One thing that jumped out at me was the mention of "satyrs" 23:21 which are from Greek myth. The NIV has "wild goats". Also "dragons in their pleasant palaces" - in the NIV this is "jackals in their luxurious palaces". Quick Googling tells me that this Hebrew  "tannim" (plural, jackals or hyenas) which is easily confused with "tannin" (sing., dragon, sea monster or snake). But why would either live in a luxury palaces?

Oh, you had to bring up words and etymology.  You know I have to weigh in.  The Masoretic Hebrew version uses the word "Saw-EER."  This has been translated as many different words in several different verses where this word appears. 

Goats (and he-goats) and satyrs are both common Bible translations of Saw-EER. And we can see the usage of either one resembling the other.  Jackals is also another common translation.  Then we have the generic "howling creature."  There was also one common translation which does not appear in any common Bible translation I'm aware of -- Baboon.  But this was specifically a species of Baboon that is native to Babylon.  And since that is the image that the prophecy invokes, it makes sense that his may be a valid translation.

I don't know where you got the word tannin.  That isn't what is used in the Hebrew Bible (Masoretic).

You are correct that tannin (tan-NEEN)  means jackal.  But it is also the Hebrew word used for serpent (as in Exodus 7 where Aaron's rod became a serpent).  NOTE: This is NOT the same word used in Genesis (Garden of Eden).

The reason why satyr is used in Isaiah and 2 Ne (I believe) is that there is a background and history of the satyr that most people ignore in the romanticizing of Greek myth.  Before the modern image of a half-goat/half-human (which was taken from the faun in later centuries) the prototypical satyrs were "men of hedonistic excess."

Regardless, the implication here is that there is no civilization or social order remaining.  Only wild animals and wild people who know no civilization.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Carborendum

[Jamie123]

12 hours ago, Vort said:

"Pleasant palaces" refers to various public buildings used by privileged government functionaries and the higher classes of people in Babylon (as well as other ancient empires). Those outward signs of opulence (and therefore decadence) will be left prey to savage beasts and monsters. I believe that's the general gist of things at this point of Isaiah.

You're quite right - I misinterpreted the "they" before. "They" are not the dragons (or the jackals), but the Babylonians who used to inhabit these places.

[Jamie123]

13 hours ago, zil2 said:

I think what @Vort said.  "their" is not the dragons', but the Babylonians'.

Indeed - very silly me. It's like "He was in love with the daughter of the king, who was very beautiful. (The daughter that is, not the king.)"

Edited September 30, 2023 by Jamie123

[zil2]

6 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Indeed - very silly me. It's like "He was in love with the daughter of the king, who was very beautiful. (The daughter that is, not the king.)"

Confusing pronouns, the plague of our day...  (Where "day" doesn't really mean a single 24-hour period...)

[zil2]

I just created next week's thread:

 

[zil2]

2 Nephi 26

v8: It seems likenable ( ) to our day - we should follow these same instructions while waiting for the second coming of Christ.

v24-28, 33: This is the argument for why we should not send any away, but try our best to encourage all to come unto Christ.

 

[Jamie123]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

7 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

Indeed - very silly me. It's like "He was in love with the daughter of the king, who was very beautiful. (The daughter that is, not the king.)"

Confusing pronouns, the plague of our day...  (Where "day" doesn't really mean a single 24-hour period...)

I thought I remembered where I got this example from: 

"The Magic Ball" was part of the regular Saturday morning lineup when I was a kid. I could never understand why Sam was "just like other boys" except for his magic ball. Wasn't it worth mentioning that his head was larger than the rest of his body, and put such stress on his spine so he had to see a chiropractor three times a week? Also it couldn't have been easy to balance.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Jamie123

[askandanswer]

Is there an implication here that they won't be understood prior to the latter days?

2 Nephi 25

Nephi glories in plainness—Isaiah’s prophecies will be understood in the last days—

 

It would only take a few minutes of checking to see if the Jews had already returned from Babylon when Nephi wrote this.

Brittanica tells me that they returned in 538 BC. which is still ten years or more after the time that Nephi was writing this.

2 Nephi 25

—The Jews will return from Babylon

 

The scattering and scourging happened for a considerable period both before and after the crucifixion of the Messiah.

and be scattered and scourged—

 

The restoration seems to be happening at a much quicker pace than the conversion.

They will be restored when they believe in the Messiah—

 

This public fixing of a date for His first coming is quite a contrast with the secrecy surrounding the date of His second coming.

2 Nephi 25

He will first come six hundred years after Lehi left Jerusalem

 

It seems to me that the words and worth of a prophet could be diminished if a portion of his audience find his words hard to understand. Isaiah's approach to prophecy, which seems to be aimed quite tightly at a very small group is quite a contrast to what I watched this morning, when the words of the prophet were clearly and easily understood by a very international audience.

2 Nephi 25:1

For behold, Isaiah spake many things which were hard for many of my people to understand;

This seems like a strong rejection by Nephi of his history and culture and heritage.

2 Nephi 25:2

2 For I, Nephi, have not taught them many things concerning the manner of the Jews;

 

It is phrases like this that make my query the effectiveness of the law of Moses as a means of bringing a people unto Christ and preparing them to receive Him.

2 Nephi 25:2

for their works were works of darkness, and their doings were doings of abominations.

 

I think it would be better if a prophet spoke sufficiently plainly that his words could be understood in their own right rather than speaking in a manner that required someone to interpret what he had said. This approach creates a heavy reliance on the interpreter and we can see from the Dark Ages the sort of problems that can arise from that sort of situation,

Isaiah is one of the few, perhaps the only prophet who Christ has specifically approved of, so there must be some validity in his methods and words.

2 Nephi 25:4

for because the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you, nevertheless they are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy. 

 

 

This is interesting - Nephi delights in plainness, and he also delights in the words of Isaiah, which are so unplain that they can only be interpreted by someone who was fully familiar with the people and culture to whom they were directed.

2 Nephi 25:4

 for behold, my soul delighteth in plainness unto my people, that they may learn.

 

So they understood, they just did not abide or obey.

2 Nephi 25:5

and I know that the Jews do understand the things of the prophets, 

 

I see here a contrast between Isaiah and all the prophets of the Book of Mormon. The prophets of the Book of Mormon are easily understood wherever the Book of Mormon can be found, regardless language, culture and religious beliefs. Understanding Isaiah seems to require a knowledge of 7th century BC Jewish culture,

2 Nephi 25:5

there is none other people that understand the things which were spoken unto the Jews like unto them, save it be that they are taught after the manner of the things of the Jews.