Book of Mormon Reading Group: 16 Oct - 22 Oct 2023 (Mosiah 14 - Mosiah 29)

[Jamie123]

15 minutes ago, Vort said:

Ask 99% of Americans who read the Harry Potter books how they pronounced "Hermione".

Ever listen to a comedian named Brian Regan? He did a comedy routine 15 or so years ago called The Epitome of Hyperbole, pronounced "the epitohm of hyperbowl".

Another one is Don Quixote. It's odd that the Cervantes character is pronounced KEE-OH-TAY (which I learned because of the song by Nik Kershaw) but the adjective is always pronounced QUIX-O-TIC.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Jamie123

[Jamie123]

We've nearly finished Mosiah now. This book has been quite a ride! It's hard to believe how much has happened since King Benjamin started his address.

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

Another one is Don Quixote. It's odd that the Cervantes character is pronounced KEE-OH-TAY ...

Assuming one speaks Spanish (which I used to be able to do): key HOE tay (I just googled and listened to the "American" and "British" pronunciations and frankly, both made my skin crawl.  It's key HOE tay.)

Edited October 20, 2023 by zil2

[Jamie123]

2 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Assuming one speaks Spanish (which I used to be able to do): key HOE tay (I just googled and listed to the "American" and "British" pronunciations and frankly, both made my skin crawl.  It's key HOE tay.)

Haha...OK! But at least it's not QUIX-OTE!

[zil2]

1 minute ago, Jamie123 said:

Haha...OK! But at least it's not QUIX-OTE!

No, and given when it was written, Don Quixote probably never had quick oats either...    Don Quixote quixotically quipped that breakfast would be quite speedy if oats were quicker to cook.

[Jamie123]

I'm drinking camomile tea while reading the Book of Mormon. Is that blasphemy?

[zil2]

2 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I'm drinking camomile tea while reading the Book of Mormon. Is that blasphemy?

Herbal tea doesn't go against the word of wisdom (assuming it's not spiked or mixed with regular tea).

[Carborendum]

6 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I'm drinking camomile tea while reading the Book of Mormon. Is that blasphemy?

HERETIC!!!

Oh, wait.  You're not even LDS.  

Yeah, you're fine.

[zil2]

Mosiah 24

v1-4 (and all over the Book of Mormon): It's interesting to consider that the Nephites seem to extremify (Look, Ma, I made a verb!) the Lamanites, either for good (missionaries) or ill (defectors).  Makes me wonder what the Lamanites would have been like without the Nephite influences...

v6-7: The gift of good communication skills...

v10: Don't wait until your afflictions are "great" before crying mightily to God - walk with Him all the time (easier said than done).

v13: Sometimes we don't want to wait until the Lord fulfills his promises - we're in a hurry for the blessings, but in good times we're slow to turn to him (see v10 comment).

v14: In the midst of trial, look for ways that the Lord is blessing you.  Note them so that you can later lift others with your testimony of the Lord's goodness.

v15: "...submit cheerfully and with patience to all the will of the Lord."  The Lord's will wasn't that they suffer, it was that they endure well until such time as the Lord provided the means of delivery.  This is real faith - the act as if the promised outcome were a certainty.

Note that in easing the burdens of Alma and his people, no one's agency was violated - not the Nephites and not the Lamanites and not the Amulonites - the Lord didn't use force against anyone, he strengthened those who had asked for his help.  We should keep this example in mind when looking for relief from our own burdens.

v18: Guess Amulon didn't have spot-lights and barbed wire and alarms and such...

v19: Trust God to fight your battles (when he says he will).

v21: Be grateful now - don't wait until everything is perfect before being grateful - things will never be perfect.

v23: When the Lord tells you to get a move on, get a move on.

Mosiah 25

v3 is interesting.  Are the wicked better at reproducing?  Does wickedness appeal to more folk so the Lamanite numbers are enlarged by dissenters, or...?

v5-6: Story time with the King.   Guess this would be like going to the drive-in to watch a double-feature: War and Peace and Gone with the Wind.  Folks had longer attention spans.  (Do you suppose they'd figured out how to pop corn yet?)

v7-11: Your heart should be soft enough to feel for the experiences of others.

The end of this chapter is, to my recollection, the first instance of organized churches in the Book of Mormon - perhaps they were small enough before to only need the prophet to lead them...

Mosiah 26

v3: To understand the things of God requires belief first (see also Ether 3:11).  Presumably this is because the things of God can only be understood through the Spirit, and one must believe in order to receive testimony from the Spirit.  (Also, one must not harden one's heart - be stubborn, refuse to accept, refuse to consider, etc.)

v6: (Almost?) every person in the Book of Mormon who deceives people and leads them away from God is described as using "flattering words".  Thus, when someone tells you things that seem flattering - in any way - or even just "reaffirming" - consider that you might be in grave danger and consider your situation very carefully.

v9: Don't let your iniquity abound.

v10-12: Love this exchange between Alma and Mosiah - "Here, you deal with them." "I'm not dealing with them; you do it."

v13-14: When you can't figure out what to do, ask God - "pour out your whole soul" to him.

v15-18: The Lord doesn't answer the question at first.  Lesson: don't focus on the question so much that your mind is closed to whatever else God may have to say.

v19: We are blessed simply because we inquire of the Lord.

v20-27: Get to know the Lord.

v28-32: The Lord's way is simple, patient, and merciful.

v39: Pray without ceasing, and give thanks in all things.

[Jamie123]

46 minutes ago, zil2 said:

v10: Don't wait until your afflictions are "great" before crying mightily to God - walk with Him all the time (easier said than done).

God must get very depressed if people only come to him when things are bad. We should talk to God when we are happy too.

46 minutes ago, zil2 said:

v13: Sometimes we don't want to wait until the Lord fulfills his promises - we're in a hurry for the blessings, but in good times we're slow to turn to him (see v10 comment).

I sometimes find that just as I'm giving up praying and thinking "what the hell" and going back to my old sins, that's when God answers me - but the pull of sin is strong and the heart has ceased to be repentant even before the blessings have come. 

46 minutes ago, zil2 said:

v14: In the midst of trial, look for ways that the Lord is blessing you.  Note them so that you can later lift others with your testimony of the Lord's goodness.

OK, Pollyanna! 😛

46 minutes ago, zil2 said:

v21: Be grateful now - don't wait until everything is perfect before being grateful - things will never be perfect.

I wasn't joking about Pollyanna. She was the greatest! We need a few more Pollyannas around.

Hayley Mills was the best Pollyanna.

46 minutes ago, zil2 said:

v6: (Almost?) every person in the Book of Mormon who deceives people and leads them away from God is described as using "flattering words".  Thus, when someone tells you things that seem flattering - in any way - or even just "reaffirming" - consider that you might be in grave danger and consider your situation very carefully.

It's a bit like the "itching ears" in 2 Timothy. Doreen Virtue is always banging on about "itching ears" in her YouTube videos. I like Doreen Virtue, though I only agree with about half of what she says. She may be spot on about the "itching ears" though.

46 minutes ago, zil2 said:

v15-18: The Lord doesn't answer the question at first.  Lesson: don't focus on the question so much that your mind is closed to whatever else God may have to say.

Too right. When I go to God (which isn't often enough I'm sorry to say) I usually don't even know what the question is.

46 minutes ago, zil2 said:

v39: Pray without ceasing, and give thanks in all things.

Those words set of a bunch of different hymns in my head!

Edited October 20, 2023 by Jamie123
Too few l's in Pollyanna

[zil2]

Mosiah 27

v4-5: God clearly does not want people preaching for money or just living off someone else's largess.  He wants us working with our own hands.

v16: This command to remember the captivity of one's fathers and that the Lord rescued them, is common in the Book of Mormon (and perhaps the OT).  God wants us to remember all the ways he's helped people so that when we go through trials, we will trust him to help us through them - and so we can stay humble and grateful.

v20: Prophetic perspective, I suppose.  I doubt anyone today would rejoice at the arrival of their basically comatose son...

v24+: Similar to how our physical birth is something that happens to us, spiritual birth is something we must allow Christ to work for us - yes, we must cooperate, repent, do all we can to obey, and be humble so that he can change us, but in my experience, I'm not the one that changes my heart - Christ is (v28 - Alma the younger did all he could - repenting nigh unto death - but it was still Christ who "snatched" him).

v30+: It seems part of his repentance process was learning all about Christ.  (Which makes perfect sense.)

v32-33+: Spiritual rebirth doesn't just change your heart, it changes your behavior (or, if your heart is truly changed, you will change your behavior to match).

v34: Here we get the next Ammon (the one who goes to the Lamanites).

v35: True repentance requires one to make amends, as much as possible.  This is also a demonstration of humility and love.

v37: We are blessed as we teach about Christ.

[askandanswer]

I wonder what this means. Notwithstanding their common heritage from Israel the Mulekites and Nephites by this time had become two completely different groups of people, with different languages and with one group having no historical records. When they became one people, I'm guessing that it means that the Mulekites adopted the ways and languages of the Nephites, even though it seems as if it was the Nephites who transferred in to the territory of the Mulekites, and that it was the Mulekites who were numerically superior.

Earlier in the book of Mormon we read that the term Nephites was used to refer to the different groups that believed in the gospel, and based on who they had descended from. This continuation of distinctions based on descendants may be evidence that some sort of tribalism still had some sort of social impact. So when you have a society that might still be divided into numerous tribal groupings and then you find and join a completely new and foreign group, what impact would that have on both groups? How smooth and successful and complete was the merging process between the various groups?

Mosiah 25

The descendants of Mulek at Zarahemla become Nephites

I'm guessing that a big part of the reason for this is the frequency and severity of the wars that the Nephites were involved in over a period of many hundreds of years. See Omni 1: 5- 6

It's interesting that a people who had the benefit of prophets, records, temples, righteous kings and scriptures had not fared as well as a people who do not appear to have had these advantages.

Mosiah 25:2

Now there were not so many of the children of Nephi, or so many of those who were descendants of Nephi, as there were of the people of Zarahemla, 

I wander if this was a delegation of authority or if it was a transfer of authority. Once having handed authority to Alma, did Mosiah step back from his religious responsibilities?

Mosiah 25

Mosiah authorizes Alma to organize the Church of God. 

 

just like his father did

Mosiah 25:1

1 And now king Mosiah caused that all the people should be gathered together.

This seems to be an indication that the merger of the two groups of people still had some way to go. By this point, they had been together from the time that Mosiah's grandfather had discovered them, as recorded in Omni, and through all of King Benjamin's reign, and now into the reign of Mosiah the second, and still they were gathered in two large groups, maintaining their distinction.

Mosiah 25:4

4 And now all the people of Nephi were assembled together, and also all the people of Zarahemla, and they were gathered together in two bodies.

 wonder if the record that King Mosiah read was the same record that I have just read in the previous chapters, or have I just read the shortened, edited version?

Mosiah 25:5

 And it came to pass that Mosiah did read, and caused to be read, the records of Zeniff to his people;

 

This record is suggesting that Alma was part of the group that first left Zarahemla and then later returned. This would mean that Alma must have been quite young when they left Zarahemla. He must have been quite old when they returned. I think it was about 50 years from the start of the trip with Zeniff to the return to Zarahemla so I guess if Alma had been 20 when they left, its possible that he could still be alive at the time they returned.

 

and he also read the account of Alma and his brethren, and all their afflictions, from the time they left the land of Zarahemla until the time they returned again.

This is clearly a different set of records from the plates of Nephi. So in our version of the record - the Book of Mormon - we get the edited version of the records of Zeniff and of Alma, as recorded in the plates of Nephi.

Mosiah 25:7

7 And now, when Mosiah had made an end of reading the records, 

I suspect that the level of familiarity between those hearing this record, and those whose history it is was quite tenuous and distant but still they had great compassion for these people who they hardly knew.

Mosiah 25:9

And again, when they thought of their brethren who had been slain by the Lamanites they were filled with sorrow, and even shed many tears of sorrow.

 

This concern for their enemies comes up quite a few times in the Book of Mormon. I can't remember any occasions in the Book of Mormon when the Nephites express any hatred towards their enemies or strong ill-will.

Mosiah 25:11

And again, when they thought upon the Lamanites, who were their brethren, of their sinful and polluted state, they were filled with pain and anguish for the welfare of their souls.

 

Another example of compassion and concern for a people they hardly knew and who were usually their enemies trying to kill them.

Mosiah 25:11

And again, when they thought upon the Lamanites, who were their brethren, of their sinful and polluted state, they were filled with pain and anguish for the welfare of their souls.

Which kingdom are they talking about here? I thought the Nephites were in the territory that had previously been the Mulekites.

This statement is a bit ambiguous and possibly misleading. We are in a situation where two kingdoms had been merged - the kingdom of the Mulekites and the kingdom of the Nephites. Obviously, before the discovery of the Mulekites by King Mosiah 1, the kingdom of the Mulekites had been ruled only by the Mulekites and never by a descendant of Nephi. Mosiah 2 was the first Nephite king to rule this newly created combined kingdom.

Was it a takeover or a merger?

Mosiah 25:13

And now all the people of Zarahemla were numbered with the Nephites, and this because the kingdom had been conferred upon none but those who were descendants of Nephi.

Alma had previously appointed priests to teach the people. Was he the only person who could have taught the different groups of people?

Mosiah 25:15

nd Alma did speak unto them, when they were assembled together in large bodies, and he went from one body to another, preaching unto the people repentance and faith on the Lord.

 

The effect of powerful preaching. We see this happen again with King Lamoni and his father and their people - convert the king and the people follow. That seemed to be the case with American Indians in the early days of the church and I also recall a general conference talk by a general authority, maybe by President Eyring or Elder Rasband about an African king promising to bring all his people if he got baptised.

Mosiah 25:17

 And it came to pass that after Alma had taught the people many things, and had made an end of speaking to them, that king Limhi was desirous that he might be baptized; and all his people were desirous that they might be baptized also.

 

There's quite a few of these mass conversion events recorded in the Book of Mormon. The spiritual decisions and welfare of these people seemed to be dangerously dependent on the actions and decisions of their rulers. 

Mosiah 25:18

18 Therefore, Alma did go forth into the water and did baptize them; yea, he did baptize them after the manner he did his brethren in the waters of Mormon; 

 

I can understand that it would be the kings decision to allow the establishment of churches throughout the land, but I wouldn't think his consent or involvement would be required for the calling of priests. I thought that would be a decision that was very much within the domain of the head of the church.

This church may have been different from the church of the New Testament. These Book of Mormon churches had priests and teachers. The New Testament church had prophets, apostles, evangelists, pastors and teachers.

Mosiah 25:19

And it came to pass that king Mosiah granted unto Alma that he might establish churches throughout all the land of Zarahemla; and gave him power to ordain priests and teachers over every church.

 

This sounds similar to the practice that has began to emerge in the church in the last few years. In the last 5 years or so it has become the common practice for the topics of sacrament talks, Relief Society lessons and Priesthood lessons to all be based on addresses given at General Conference, so the talks and lessons become mechanisms for repeating and emphasising what church leaders have said.

It also sounds very similar to 3rd Nephi 19:7-8

7 And the disciples did pray unto the Father also in the name of Jesus. And it came to pass that they arose and ministered unto the people.

8 And when they had ministered those same words which Jesus had spoken—nothing varying from the words which Jesus had spoken

Mosiah 25:21

 Therefore they did assemble themselves together in different bodies, being called churches; every church having their priests and their teachers, and every priest preaching the word according as it was delivered to him by the mouth of Alma

 

This is very different from today. Today, all manner of topics are covered in General Conferences. Certainly faith and repentance are the two most important topics, and are frequently covered, but they are far from the only two topics. I note that since the time of PResident Nelson there have been far more talks about repentance than has previously  been the case.

Mosiah 25:22

for there was nothing preached in all the churches except it were repentance and faith in God.

 

Were there any Nephites who had not relocated to Zarahemla and if so, I wonder what happened to them and their records.

I wonder if this gives us a possible hint about the size of the population? Perhaps each church had a very large number of members? Or maybe there were many people who did not belong to the church? Or maybe there weren't all that many people and 7 churchs was enough?

Mosiah 25:23

And now there were seven churches in the land of Zarahemla.

 

The taking, or rejecting of a name seems to have been a powerfully symbolic act of identification for these people. See, for example, verse 12 of this chapter.

Mosiah 25:23

And now there were seven churches in the land of Zarahemla. And it came to pass that whosoever were desirous to take upon them the name of Christ, or

There are benefits from clarity and precision. This is a surprisingly vague statement given how careful these people were about names.

 

Mosiah 25:23

And now there were seven churches in the land of Zarahemla. And it came to pass that whosoever were desirous to take upon them the name of Christ, or of God, 

So what was the name of their church? They were called the people of God, and they took upon themselves the name of Christ, or of God. We read in 3rd Nephi and Doctrine and Covenants 115 that Christ was quite specific in how His church should be named, and that name was not the Church of God

7 Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake.

8 And how be it amy bchurch save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.

Mosiah 25:23

  they did join the churches of God;

 

 

[zil2]

Next week thread is here:

Edited October 22, 2023 by zil2

[zil2]

5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

wonder if the record that King Mosiah read was the same record that I have just read in the previous chapters, or have I just read the shortened, edited version?

You read Mormon's abridgement.  As you later note.

5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

This record is suggesting that Alma was part of the group that first left Zarahemla and then later returned. This would mean that Alma must have been quite young when they left Zarahemla. He must have been quite old when they returned. I think it was about 50 years from the start of the trip with Zeniff to the return to Zarahemla so I guess if Alma had been 20 when they left, its possible that he could still be alive at the time they returned.

I think the text you cited is just the record of Alma from the time he fled King Noah, when he and his followers became a separate people with a separate record.  (Though that doesn't explain the "from the time they left Zarahemla" - perhaps Alma kept personal records the whole time...)

5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I can't remember any occasions in the Book of Mormon when the Nephites express any hatred towards their enemies or strong ill-will.

It's coming.  When Ammon and his brothers announce they're going on a mission to the Lamanites - their fellow Nephites call them crazy and say "we should just go kill them all" (or words to that effect).  (Perhaps the children of those who had great compassion a short while ago...)

5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Which kingdom are they talking about here? I thought the Nephites were in the territory that had previously been the Mulekites.

This statement is a bit ambiguous and possibly misleading. We are in a situation where two kingdoms had been merged - the kingdom of the Mulekites and the kingdom of the Nephites. Obviously, before the discovery of the Mulekites by King Mosiah 1, the kingdom of the Mulekites had been ruled only by the Mulekites and never by a descendant of Nephi. Mosiah 2 was the first Nephite king to rule this newly created combined kingdom.

Was it a takeover or a merger?

Technically, we don't know if "the people of Zarahemla" (the person) were a kingdom or something else.  It's logical to assume, but we don't know enough either way.

Time to get ready for Church!

[zil2]

8 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Were there any Nephites who had not relocated to Zarahemla and if so, I wonder what happened to them and their records.

It seems to me that when Mosiah I fled from the Lamanites, not everyone came with him (Omni 1:12 "...and as many as would hearken unto the voice of the Lord should also depart out of the land with him..." - aren't you glad for Omni now? ).  Presumably those who stayed behind were either killed or absorbed by the Lamanites - the Book of Mormon talks frequently about dissenters from the Nephites who go join (and usually "rile up") the Lamanites.

[zil2]

Mosiah 28

v1+: Conversion yields a desire to share the gospel.  I've wondered if, in part, they wanted to go to the Lamanites because they weren't well received among the Nephites, and after doing what they could to repair the damage they'd done formerly, they found that people wouldn't trust them (or something like this).

v2: Hope is a good thing, no matter how it may seem to the natural man.

v3-4: Our own repentance should bring similar results.  If not, perhaps ponder why not.

v6-8: Just because you're scared (and Mosiah surely was - see v7), don't let your fear keep your children from pursuing great ends. Counsel with the Lord and trust his judgement over your fears.

v10+: When facing a situation you don't know how to resolve, turn to scripture, history, and the Lord.

v13-14: @Jamie123, these are called the Urim and Thummim in other places (footnote to v13).

v15: is rather interesting - no mention of righteousness or of the Lord's teachings, but to reveal "iniquities and abominations".  Yet we know that Urim and Thummim (if not these same ones) were used to translate the Book of Mormon...  Don't really know what to make of it, just interesting to note.

v19: It is interesting the importance Mormon places on this book of Ether.  It's also interesting to note that Mormon says the account will be written later, and it's Moroni who writes it.

v20: The records were separated between kings and prophets, then joined under king Benjamin, and now they go to the prophets, where they stay for the remainder of the Book of Mormon - whatever records the judges kept (when the prophets weren't the judges), we don't know - though I suppose Mormon may have used some of those records, too.

Mosiah 29

v5+: I can imagine Mosiah was inspired by the judges Israel once had (from the brass plates) and spent a lot of time considering this dilemma, and praying for guidance.

v10: Considering the future, the consequences, and potential dangers of any course is only wisdom.

v11+: Choose your leaders well. v17, 31: The wicked ruler doesn't have to be a king to "inspire" iniquity in the people.

v18+: Learn from history!

v38: Freedom.

[Jamie123]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

v13-14: @Jamie123, these are called the Urim and Thummim in other places (footnote to v13).

I don't remember any previous mention of these "seer stones" - do we know where they came from originally?

Also are they the same stones that Joseph Smith found in the buried box?

Interesting that the Nephites (or at least the Nephites in Zarahemla) are transitioning from monarchy to rule by judges. This is the opposite of what the Israelites did.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Jamie123

[zil2]

37 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

do we know where they came from originally?

Other than them being prepared by God, no.  The earliest reference is in Exodus - they were in Aaron's breastplate (per the footnote).

37 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Also are they the same stones that Joseph Smith found in the buried box?

Don't know if they're the same ones or another set.

37 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Interesting that the Nephites (or at least the Nephites in Zarahemla) are transitioning from monarchy to rule by judges. This is the opposite of what the Israelites did.

Yes.  But I expect Mosiah II got the idea (at least in part) from the brass plates.

Edited October 22, 2023 by zil2

[askandanswer]

4 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Interesting that the Nephites (or at least the Nephites in Zarahemla) are transitioning from monarchy to rule by judges. This is the opposite of what the Israelites did.

I've often thought that transitions from a single source of great power to distributed sources of lesser power is an indication of the social/spiritual maturity of a people. When the Saints first arrived in Salt Lake they were led mostly by a single source of power - Brigham Young - but that situation evolved into situation where sources of power became more diverse. For the Israelites, the transition from judges to kings, to me, is a backwards step. 

[Jamie123]

34 minutes ago, zil2 said:

The earliest reference is in Exodus - they were in Aaron's breastplate (per the footnote).

I'm using the app right now so I don't have access to the footnotes. You're quite right, Exodus 28:30. I wonder how the Nephites came to have them. 

P.S. They are mentioned in Ezra 2:63 too - which is post exile. It implies there being no priest who could use the Urim and Thummim. Perhaps you're right about there being more than one set.

P.P.S. Unless the reason they couldn't use them was because they had been taken away by Lehi's people. (Or perhaps more likely by Mulek.)

Edited October 22, 2023 by Jamie123

[Jamie123]

44 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Don't know if they're the same ones or another set.

Yes you had already mentioned that. Sorry I missed it.

[zil2]

28 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I'm using the app right now so I don't have access to the footnotes.

Well, that's annoying, but I guess since the app only has the Book of Mormon, it can't exactly have footnotes linking to the Old Testament (at least, not without them making a whole new set of footnotes for the app).  Should you wish, you can graduate to the Gospel Library app...

29 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I wonder how the Nephites came to have them. 

I don't believe these are the same Urim and Thummim that were in Aaron's breastplate.  I believe they're a different set.  It appears that there's:

1. Aaron's set, (I wonder if this set didn't come from Abraham - see Abraham 3:1, 4)

2. The Jaredite set (which would definitely be separate from Aaron's),

2 or 3. The ones Mosiah II had (perhaps the Jaredite set recovered, we don't know), and

It appears that Joseph Smith had set 2, the Jaredite set (assumption from D&C 17 wherein the three witnesses to the BofM are told they will see the Jaredite U&T).

If there were other sets, we don't know anything about them.  I suppose in theory, after Israel was sacked one too many times and its precious things stolen from the temple, the Urim and Thummim could have been recovered and repurposed by some servant of the Lord, so that there could be only 2 sets - one from the old world and one from the new.  But I don't see any way for the Jaredite set to be the same as Aaron's - timing overlaps.

Gospel Topics entry

[askandanswer]

Sounds like a reoccurring problem, from Adam and Cain until today. This highlights the necessity of everybody gaining their own testimony rather than relying on the faith and practices of others.

It would be concerning if the development of their faith was dependent on their memory of a speech given when they were children. But inactivity and falling away continues to be a problem today, even with the far greater resources that the church today has. It makes me ponder the extant to which technology aids church activity and the extent to which its absence hasten inactivity. 

Mosiah 26:1

Now it came to pass that there were many of the rising generation that could not understand the words of king Benjamin, being

Where did this unbelief come from and how did it arise? I think that to some extent, neither belief nor disbelief are natural conditions. I think they are created; although, on the other hand, it is true that all are born with the light of Christ. I wander do what extent this disbelief was created by poor parenting, and how much of it can be attributed to the influence of Satan continually working on each of us to overcome our faith.

Mosiah 26:2

 They did not believe what had been said concerning the resurrection of the dead, neither did they believe concerning the coming of Christ.

I wander if the size of their church units was a contributing factor. With 7 churches covering the whole population maybe there just weren't enough priests and teachers to properly cover the spiritual needs of the people.

Mosiah 26:4

 And they would not be baptized; neither would they join the church.

 

In Mosiah 5:2 it seems to strongly indicate that the conversion level after King Benjamin's address was universal. It talks of all the people accepting what the King had taught and Mosiah's reign commenced immediately after the end of his father's speech.

Mosiah 26:5

 And now in the reign of Mosiah they were not half so numerous as the people of God; 

 

 

Not a voluntary process? It sort of sounds a bit like an arrest where wrong doers are brought before a judge to be tried.

Mosiah 26:7

 And it came to pass that they were brought before the priests, 

 

 

Today when we see the words priests and teachers in close proximity we tend to think of Aaronic Priesthood holders, but I suspect that in this case the teachers are those who had the responsibility of teaching in the various churches. But the fact that the teachers were the ones who brought the sinners to the Priests makes it sound as if the teachers did more than just teach.

Mosiah 26:7

 And it came to pass that they were brought before the priests, and delivered up unto the priests by the teachers; 

 

 

t seems as if, at this point, like Moses, it was Alma doing all the judging.

Mosiah 26:7

 And it came to pass that they were brought before the priests, and delivered up unto the priests by the teachers; and the priests brought them before Alma, who was the high priest.

 

So despite having been the leader of the church for some time, Alma still did not know how to deal with sinful members. Either the need hadn't arisen or it had arisen but not been responded to.

Mosiah 26:9

 And it came to pass that Alma did not know concerning them;

 

here is the answer - the need had not arisen before. This, then, is a testimony of, or tribute to, Alma's effective as a church leader.

Mosiah 26:10

 Now there had not any such thing happened before in the church;

 

crimes or sins? I think sins. All criminal actions would be sinful but not all sinful actions would be criminal.

Mosiah 26:11

that thou mayest judge them according to their crimes.

 

In latter-day language, I guess this is an example of what we now call having your calling and election made sure.

I'm not going to do it now but it may be interesting to do a comparison between the revelation that Alma received on this question and the revelation that Joseph Smith received in response to the same question.

Mosiah 26:20

 Thou art my servant; and I covenant with thee that thou shalt have eternal life; and thou shalt serve me and go forth in my name, and shalt gather together my sheep.

 

 

Its a rather unflattering comparison.

Mosiah 26:20

and shalt gather together my sheep.

 

 

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

I don't remember any previous mention of these "seer stones" - do we know where they came from originally?

Also are they the same stones that Joseph Smith found in the buried box?

Interesting that the Nephites (or at least the Nephites in Zarahemla) are transitioning from monarchy to rule by judges. This is the opposite of what the Israelites did.

Jamie, I'm afraid that such issues distract from the central themes of the Book of Mormon. As a result, I'm hesitant to engage on these issues for fear of missing the important point or points and replacing them with a decidedly less important discussion about methodology and rocks and the meaning of phrases.

Nevertheless, you have asked the question, and the question is reasonable. I don't know that I or anyone else in this discussion can adequately answer it, but here are some ideas. This goes on for a while, so I hope you can have patience with me as I try to give some background to explain LDS ideas about the seer stones and Joseph Smith's interfacing with these issues. Someone can probably do this better than me, and I welcome any efforts in that regard. My thoughts are somewhat scattered, but I'll do my best to pull them together and try to string together something coherent.

********************************

The word "Gazelem" occurs in Alma 37:23, in the context of Alma explaining to his son, Helaman, about God's dealings with the mysterious people destroyed in the land the Nephites called Desolation—those whom we normally call the people of Jared or the Jaredites:

And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.

(Compare the experience of the mighty prophet Moriancumr, referred to in the Book of Mormon book of Ether as "the brother of Jared", when he went before God to ask that sixteen small, transparent stones be touched by God's finger to shine out in the darkness of the Jaredite barges or enclosed boats that they had built. The result was God revealing himself to Moriancumr, one of the great theophanies ever recorded.)

Here, Alma is giving Helaman charge of the extensive records of the Nephites, those records begun by Nephi and continued by the Nephite kings through the centuries. Included in those Nephite records were the 24 gold plates found by Zeniff's people under king Limhi (Zeniff's grandson, wicked king Noah's son) when Limhi sent a search party out to find the land of Zarahemla. You remember that Limhi asked his rescuers under Ammon (the first one, not the later Ammon who was the son of king  Mosiah and who cut off the arms of the enemies of the Lamanite king Lamoni) if they had any means to translate ancient records—a curious question from a king whose people were in bondage and who were threatened with destruction. Limhi specifically asked this question in reference to the 24 gold plates his search party had found some time previous.

The answer Ammon I gave Limhi (Mosiah 8:13) was that king Mosiah did have such a gift, and that "the things" were called interpreters. No further description is given in the Book of Mormon. It appears that the term Gazelem was in some way a reference to these interpreters. The word Gazelem has been speculated to have been based on the Semitic root gaz, meaning a stone, the word itself meaning something like "stone of God". From this comes the idea of a "seer stone".

In this context, it is interesting to note that when many revelations of the Doctrine and Covenants were first published, many of the names of individuals in Church leadership were kept secret by replacing them with other names. The "code name" for Joseph Smith himself was "Gazelem". Joseph appeared to have identified with the word, not unlike how the great apostle Simon was called by the Lord kephas (the KJV renders it "Cephas"), an Aramaic word meaning "stone" and usually translated into English through the invented Greek(ish) term petros or Peter, a masculinized form of the Greek word petra "stone". Similarly, the mortal Christ, talking with Simon Peter, invoked his Christ-given name of kephas and specifically said that he would build his kingdom upon "this rock". Catholics and other Christians have long thought that the Lord was saying that Peter himself would be the foundation of Christ's Church, but Latter-day Saints interpret this as meaning that the Lord's kingdom is built upon the rock-solid foundation of revelation. So the idea of "seer-stone" is inextricably linked with the idea of revelation from God.

The description of "the interpreters" that we have is of latter-day provenance, not from ancient records. Martin Harris described them as two (hence the plural "interpreters") round white stones that looked like marble. Joseph Smith himself described the two stones as being set in the rims of a silver bow to make something that resembled glasses or spectacles, though much too widely spaced to be used as such by normally proportioned people. Maybe the silver rim was a storage method for the interpreters, or maybe the Jaredites were ten feet tall. (Half-joking about that latter option, though we have no way to tell; the silver bow was itself attached to a breastplate that Joseph described as being far too large for him to wear, though Joseph himself was a barrel-chested man of about six feet two inches in height. Make of that what you will.)

So, with this general background, I'll try to answer your questions directly:

"[D]o we know where they came from originally?"

No, other than that they came from God. We are given no information (that I know of) about how God circulated such divine items among his people. Maybe he left them outside their tent door one night.

"Also are they the same stones that Joseph Smith found in the buried box?"

One would presume so. I know of no way to test this idea.

"Interesting that the Nephites (or at least the Nephites in Zarahemla) are transitioning from monarchy to rule by judges. This is the opposite of what the Israelites did."

Yep. Perhaps it is better to view this as a recreation of Israelite history rather than some sort of back-transformation. Moses led the children of Israel, and after Moses' death (such as it was represented), other prophets such as Joshua led the people in a sort of prophet-king role until the rule of judges was established. Similarly, the father-son-grandson trio of Mosiah I, Benjamin, and Mosiah II led the Nephites and the people of Zarahemla until they (well, Mosiah II) established a new rule of judges for this branch of Israel, just as the ancient Israelites had done. Whereas ancient Israel left the rule of judges because they demanded a king, the Nephites left the rule of judges when they were too wicked to sustain it and the whole society fell apart from internal intrigue and wicked "combinations".

Edited October 22, 2023 by Vort

[zil2]

14 minutes ago, Vort said:

not from ancient records

Unless you count the Book of Mormon as an ancient record, in which case, Mormon tells us in Mosiah 28:13 that they are "fastened into the two rims of a bow."  That's the only description I can find in the BofM.  FWIW.