Book of Mormon Reading Group: 30 Oct - 05 Nov 2023 (Alma 13 - Alma 25)

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

That may be the official lingo, but people do sometimes refer to senior/junior missionary pairs (not necessarily Latter-day saints) as "Batmans* and Robins".

I always thought it was rather a good analogy - unless of course you think it's offensive, in which case I won't use it.

*Correct plural of Batman: Batmans? or Batmen?

I've never heard that.  OK, as long as I'm Batman.  Or if I'm going to be Robin, I'd better be Jason Todd.

[Jamie123]

9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

LoL.  Yeah, I remember those episodes.  I'm surprised you do.  I'd understand the David episode.  It was a full episode.

But the Joseph and Mary thing was just a single scene.  I don't know how many people would remember that.  Congrats.

Just to let you know how nit-picky I can get with TV shows, I wondered how there could be a Thriving Greek Empire and a Thriving Roman Empire (Caesar was a recurring character) all within a few years' time that covered the era from David to Jesus.  And they even did a bit of dabbling with 300.

But, hey.  It's a TV show.

And, let's not forget Centicles (Ho-ho-ho).

Yup - she's either a time-traveler, or else she lives in an alternate world in which every important historical event happened within one lifetime! I used to wonder if next week we'd see her at Waterloo, or at the crossing of the Delaware, or helping the Wright Brothers get off the ground!

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

*Correct plural of Batman: Batmans? or Batmen?

Following the example of "Books of Mormon", I'm going to say "Batsman".

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

...rejected by her family on joining the Church. Amulek doesn't seem to have had such problems though - at least not yet! (It's early days.)

It doesn't mention his wife and children, but it does say that his father's family rejected him.

Oddly enough, I generally don't like LDS movies.

[Jamie123]

25 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Oddly enough, I generally don't like LDS movies.

That's interesting - other LDSs have told me the same thing at different times. I wonder if I would enjoy Church of England movies (if there were such a thing!)

At least the closest I can think of is The Vicar of Dibley - which is a TV show, not a movie. I find that quite funny, but it's not really "insider humour". It's more how a non-churchgoing person would imagine church goings-on.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Jamie123

[askandanswer]

8 hours ago, zil2 said:

That's the first time I've heard it.  The most common "slang" term I've heard is "missionscaries".

missions caries would be quite accurate if it refers to two people who care a lot as most missionaries do. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by askandanswer

[Vort]

22 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

missions caries would be quite accurate if it refers to two people who are a lot as most missionaries do. 

"Missions caries" are those elders and sisters in need of dental care.

[Jamie123]

5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I've never heard that.  OK, as long as I'm Batman.  Or if I'm going to be Robin, I'd better be Jason Todd.

Maybe it was just certain people I hung out with who used the term

[askandanswer]

The sons of Mosiah had a right to the kingdom? I think one of them might have had a right before their father changed the system but I'm not sure if all of them would have had a right.

Given the problems that Alma had with preaching the gospel to the Nephites in Zarahemla, as evidenced by Alma 5, it may have been better if the sons of Mosiah had preached at home.

Alma 17

An account of the sons of Mosiah, who rejected their rights to the kingdom 

 

 

They go their several ways to declare the word to the Lamanites—

When Alma was preaching in Alma 5 - 7 he seemed to do that on his own, but when teaching in potentially hostile territory, he had a companion

 

The sons of Mosiah have the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—

Wed, 1 Nov 2023

I think that almost anyone can have this gift if it is a) needed, b) sought with sufficient faith and c) the recipient is worthy.

 

Luke I think 27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that aserveth.

Alma 17

Ammon goes to the land of Ishmael and becomes the servant of King Lamoni—

 

The implication here is that the King's own subjects were his enemies. It also suggests a fairly weak centre of government if the king couldn't protect even his sheep and a lack of respect for either the king or the government if some people felt comfortable with stealing from the king so blatantly. 

Alma 17

Ammon saves the king’s flocks and slays his enemies at the water of Sebus

 

 

This surprise hints at a lack of written communication or mail system, but given how much Alma moved around, it would be understandable if he missed a letter.

Alma 17:1

behold, to his astonishment, he met with the sons of Mosiah journeying towards the land of Zarahemla.

 

 

It would profit me, and potentially others, if I did more of this, and with a more humble and sincere attitude.

Alma 17:3

3 But this is not all; they had given themselves to much prayer, and fasting;

 

 

3 therefore they had the spirit of prophecy, and the spirit of revelation, and when they taught, they taught with power and authority of God.

Wed, 1 Nov 2023

These spirits are a big part of the difference between lecturing and teaching.

 

This is quite a contrast to 3rd Nephi 27:9

9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the asins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bbring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.

Alma 17:5

for they had many afflictions; they did suffer much, both in body and in mind, such as hunger, thirst and fatigue,

Its certainly a different time when all you needed to be self sufficient was your hand weapons.

Alma 17:7

7 Nevertheless they departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and took their swords, and their spears, and their bows, and their arrows, and their slings; and this they did that they might provide food for themselves while in the wilderness.

 

 

Would they have been less successful if they had fasted and prayed less than they did? Surely there was a close, perhaps even a perfect alignment between their will and God's will, so why was it necessary to petition His help as much as they did? At one point perhaps God didn't answer their prayers, hence they kept praying, and at another point He did. What determines how much prayer is needed in order to get a response?

 

9 and they fasted much and prayed much that the Lord would grant unto them a portion of his Spirit to go with them, and abide with them,

 

 

[zil2]

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

The sons of Mosiah had a right to the kingdom? I think one of them might have had a right before their father changed the system but I'm not sure if all of them would have had a right.

Remember, they basically worked their way from the eldest to the youngest, each essentially abdicating.

1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

Would they have been less successful if they had fasted and prayed less than they did? Surely there was a close, perhaps even a perfect alignment between their will and God's will, so why was it necessary to petition His help as much as they did? At one point perhaps God didn't answer their prayers, hence they kept praying, and at another point He did. What determines how much prayer is needed in order to get a response?

Wanting isn't enough.  You can want to do the things God would have you do, but not know what those things are (in the specific as opposed to the general things we all learn).  It was by prayer and fasting that they strengthened their spirits' control over their bodies and thereby received the guidance they needed.  They had the general (go preach to the Lamanites), now they needed specifics (where exactly to go) and the Holy Ghost to be with them so they'd know what to say and do in the moment.  IMO, it's not so much about the response being available as it is about the recipient being ready to receive it - prayer and fasting are ways to increase your readiness.

I think fasting (when done right) is a means to increase the relative strength of our spirit vs our body, and is also a way to demonstrate sincerity.  There may be more, I don't know.  Prayer isn't so much the way in which we inform God of our current thinking (he knows that), but it is the means by which we work through that and then receive guidance from God.

[zil2]

Alma 17

v2-3: Prayer, fasting, and scripture study - these are the basics for a reason.  But I have learned (as I imagine most have) that one's intent matters - you cannot do these things as mere ritual and expect them to yield much.

v9: Successful prayers are those where you are seeking to be used by God to do his will.

v10: When the Lord tells you it's going to be OK, believe him and "be comforted". (see also v11-12 - the Lord tells them what he'll do and they have courage because of it.)

v11: One reason to be patient in your trials is to set an example.

v14: Just because someone (or a people) seems beyond redemption doesn't mean they are.

v15: If we would receive God's promised blessings, we must repent.

v20: Would you think things were going well if step one of your mission was to be taken prisoner?

v28: Be grateful if you were taught to look and work to solve problems rather than to stand complaining in despair.

v29: Be grateful when you have the opportunity to demonstrate a better way.

v37-38: Hacking through bone, even arm bones, is not exactly an easy thing...  Dude's been working out and keeping his sword really sharp...

v39: I'm envisioning Ammon all calm and collected, "OK, we can water the sheep now."  While the other shepherds are standing there gaping.

To be continued...

[Jamie123]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

v37-38: Hacking through bone, even arm bones, is not exactly an easy thing...  Dude's been working out and keeping his sword really sharp...

You could say he "disarmed" the Lamanites! *laughs like a drain at his own joke*

I couldn't read this part without thinking of something else:

P.S. I've got another one: he "rendered them 'armless"! 😁

Edited November 1, 2023 by Jamie123

[zil2]

14 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

You could say he "disarmed" the Lamanites! *laughs like a drain at his own joke*

...

P.S. I've got another one: he "rendered them 'armless"! 😁

Somehow, I can't quite link Ammon to Monty Python, but I totally get the link.

[Jamie123]

24 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Somehow, I can't quite link Ammon to Monty Python, but I totally get the link.

Indeed not! But it's hard to dissociate "cutting off arms" with this scene!

For one thing, I think you're right about the force needed to cut off an arm. Graham Chapman makes it look so effortless!

I feel sorry for Graham Chapman. He was very funny, but he didn't have a happy life, and he died young. He was a severe alcoholic. He never touched a drop for the last 12 years of his life, but the damage was already done.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Jamie123

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

You could say he "disarmed" the Lamanites! *laughs like a drain at his own joke*

Ammon having a disarming manner is a favorite joke in the Vort household.

[Jamie123]

15 minutes ago, Vort said:

Ammon having a disarming manner is a favorite joke in the Vort household.

Please forgive the stupid question, but I've forgotten. Is this the same Ammon who appeared in the book of Mosiah? Or is it a different Ammon.

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Please forgive the stupid question, but I've forgotten. Is this the same Ammon who appeared in the book of Mosiah? Or is it a different Ammon.

Different Ammon, a full generation apart. I like to think that king Mosiah was so impressed with Ammon (I) that he named a son after him. Mosiah's sons became close buddies to Alma's son Alma (Jr.), and I'm guessing the younger Alma was born a few years before the kerfluffle with Amulon (overseeing Alma's people being taken into bondage, who then miraculously escape and found their way to Zarahemla).

[Jamie123]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Different Ammon, a full generation apart. I like to think that king Mosiah was so impressed with Ammon (I) that he named a son after him. Mosiah's sons became close buddies to Alma's son Alma (Jr.), and I'm guessing the younger Alma was born a few years before the kerfluffle with Amulon (overseeing Alma's people being taken into bondage, who then miraculously escape and found their way to Zarahemla).

I'm going to have to read this book again I think, after after we finish. So much fine detail, and people with same/similar names!

[Vort]

5 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I'm going to have to read this book again I think, after after we finish. So much fine detail, and people with same/similar names!

The same-name thing can be a problem. The good news is that Mormon is a skilled narrator and editor, and if you're careful, it's really not too hard to keep the various characters straight.

[Jamie123]

14 minutes ago, Vort said:

The same-name thing can be a problem. The good news is that Mormon is a skilled narrator and editor, and if you're careful, it's really not too hard to keep the various characters straight.

This is another obvious question which I could probably answer myself with a bit of thumbing around, but why does 17:18 say that Ammon was "chief among them" when Aaron was presumably there too? (It says in Mosiah 29:3 that Aaron had gone up to the land of Nephi* - so presumably he and Ammon were together before the brothers all separated.)

*Calling it the land of Nephi seems odd too - considering the it was primarily the land of the Lamanites. Though I daresay the Nephites maintained a nominal claim to it. (Rather like English continued to claim France long after the French had won it back!)

Edited November 1, 2023 by Jamie123
I meant Ammon, not Aaron

[zil2]

48 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I'm going to have to read this book again I think, after after we finish. So much fine detail, and people with same/similar names!

I created a pseudo-genealogy chart of all the people named in the book of Ether.  And a pseudo-chart of all the places named when they were fighting over territory.  I don't think I have one for the rest of the Book of Mormon - you'd need a wall-sized sheet of paper for such a thing!  Anyway, yeah, it's hard to keep track.  I find that writing down summaries of the different main characters can help.  I think the BofM app has an index where you could look up the different Ammons, etcs.

[Jamie123]

8 minutes ago, zil2 said:

I created a pseudo-genealogy chart of all the people named in the book of Ether.  And a pseudo-chart of all the places named when they were fighting over territory.  I don't think I have one for the rest of the Book of Mormon - you'd need a wall-sized sheet of paper for such a thing!  Anyway, yeah, it's hard to keep track.  I find that writing down summaries of the different main characters can help.  I think the BofM app has an index where you could look up the different Ammons, etcs.

I think when we've finished Alma (which won't be for ages - it's huge!) I'll update the chronology I posted a few weeks back, and you could tell me what I've got right and wrong? 

[zil2]

37 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

This is another obvious question which I could probably answer myself with a bit of thumbing around, but why does 17:18 say that Ammon was "chief among them" when Aaron was presumably there too? (It says in Mosiah 29:3 that Aaron had gone up to the land of Nephi* - so presumably he and Ammon were together before the brothers all separated.)

Mosiah 27:34:

Quote

34 And four of them were the sons of Mosiah; and their names were Ammon, and Aaron, and Omner, and Himni; these were the names of the sons of Mosiah.

...normally, sons seem to be listed by birth order, so I'm guessing Ammon was older.  If not, his chiefness in their ministry would have reflected his progress in repenting and turning to the Lord, I suppose.

My guess is that Mosiah 29:2-3, the people wanted Aaron to be their king rather than Ammon either because they knew already that Ammon wouldn't (he'd been vocal about it) or because they just liked Aaron better or thought he would be a better king.  Perhaps Ammon having refused is why king Mosiah asked the people what they wanted him to do, and then they chose son #2...

43 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

*Calling it the land of Nephi seems odd too - considering the it was primarily the land of the Lamanites. Though I daresay the Nephites maintained a nominal claim to it. (Rather like English continued to claim France long after the French had won it back!)

I believe that this is the land that Nephi went to when he fled Laman and Lemuel.  A portion of the Nephites, under king Mosiah I fled this land and found Zarahemla.  That's how the Lamanites came to occupy the land of Nephi.

[zil2]

1 minute ago, Jamie123 said:

I think when we've finished Alma (which won't be for ages - it's huge!) I'll update the chronology I posted a few weeks back, and you could tell me what I've got right and wrong? 

I can try.  As you say, Alma is huge and covers an awful lot.  If you want to summarize the adventures of the sons of Mosiah, I recommend you not wait until the end of the book of Alma - do it when we hit Alma 27.  (And for that matter, now might be a good time to summarize chapters 1-16, before you forget it - cuz I already have! )

[Jamie123]

4 minutes ago, zil2 said:

I believe that this is the land that Nephi went to when he fled Laman and Lemuel.  A portion of the Nephites, under king Mosiah I fled this land and found Zarahemla.  That's how the Lamanites came to occupy the land of Nephi.

That was the impression I got too - though the fact that they still call it "the Land of Nephi" shows they had long memories!

P.S. Though now I think about it, many places in the US are named after the native people who once lived there: Manhattan, Utah, Arkansas, Minnisota, Dakota...

Edited November 1, 2023 by Jamie123