Book of Mormon Reading Group: 27 Nov - 03 Dec 2023 (Helaman 2 - Helaman14)

[zil2]

Please see the Book of Mormon Reading Group thread for details (and discussion of 1 Nephi 1 - 5).  Our goal is to read the Book of Mormon by the end of the year.  I'll make a new post before each Monday so that it's ready to go - weeks go from Monday to Sunday for our purposes.

This week's schedule:

Nov 27	Helaman 3	Monday
Nov 28	Helaman 5	Tuesday
Nov 29	Helaman 6	Wednesday
Nov 30	Helaman 8	Thursday
Dec 1	Helaman 11	Friday
Dec 2	Helaman 12	Saturday
Dec 3	Helaman 14	Sunday

(Thursday edit.  Looking ahead, the break-down is bizarre.  Liz will read 9 and 10 on Friday and 11 and 12 on Saturday.)

Last Week:  Book of Mormon Reading Group: 20 Nov - 26 Nov 2023 (Alma 52 - Helaman 1)

Thread Index

Edited November 30, 2023 by zil2

[zil2]

Helaman 2

Spoiler Alert!  The "Gadianton Robbers" are the recurring secret combination that destroys the Nephites.  My dad once (maybe in the 1990s?) asked a (not-a-Church-member) law enforcement friend in Chicago (can't remember if he was police or FBI) to read some BofM passages describing these secret combinations and how they operate and tell him (Dad) his (LEO's) thoughts.  LEO agreed and after reading said it was exactly like the mob (this was when the Italian mafia was the only one folks in the US were worried about).

I don't know what personal lessons there are from this chapter beyond awareness that such secret combinations exist.  Later, Mormon and Moroni warn us strongly that such will destroy us in the last days if we don't realize their existence and fight against their efforts to do exactly what they sought to do in this chapter (take positions of power and authority, murder and rob).

Helaman 3

v5-6: I can only assume that the Jaredites are the former inhabitants mentioned.

v9: Plan and sacrifice for the future!

v24-26: Some of these people will probably still be alive at the time of Christ's birth.  A few may even live to see Christ's visit to them (or at least their children will).

v27-29: "...unto all who will...", "...to those who will...", "...whosoever will..." - God does not force himself on anyone, but he makes his gospel and blessings available to "all who will...".  We have to do something, even if it's just to come to him.

v29-30: Lay hold on the word of God.  Follow Christ, so that your soul can "land at the right hand of God".

v33: Be humble!! - do the stuff in v35.

v35: "yield your heart to God" - you could easily spend 10-15 minutes in Sacrament meeting talking about this idea.  In traffic, yielding is to let other cars go before you go, and then you merge into their lane and follow them; alternately, you yield to allow pedestrians to safely cross the road.  In some settings, you allow another person to speak before you or in your place.  Thus, to yield your heart could be to give it to God, but also, to let him speak before you do, or teach you what to speak.  It could be to let him lead you, choosing to merge into his way and follow him.  I'm sure we could find various other analogies.  Anyway, it's a good phrase.

v36: Don't let God's blessings go to your head!  Squash pride as soon as you recognize it in you and choose humility and gratitude instead.  Be generous and serve others, too!

[JohnsonJones]

Well, it seems that the Nephites are losing ground to the Secret Combinations and much like his forefather (well, several forefathers great grand forefather) Alma, Nephi  (And Lehi) are going to preach the gospel. 

They start converting the Lamanites and it appears that the Lamanites are now turning to be more righteous than the Nephites.

I can see something similar in our world today.  We, of the West, were very moral for many years (well, at least relative to what we are now).  However, Joseph Smith said that in his day they were already as wicked as they were in the days of Noah (and they were FAR more moral back then, than our Western society is today). 

When I travel to the Middle East many of the nations there are VERY strict on their laws and rules.  However, this also has people remain in a way which is far more moral than we are in many instances.  I could drop my wallet in Chicago and most likely I will lose it.  If I do regain it, most likely the cash it has will be gone, and perhaps the cards as well.

If I drop it in a major city in Saudi Arabia or a similar location, people will try to return it to me with all the contents intact.

I use this more as an example of how those who may dislike the United States may actually have a higher morality than what we do in the West. 

[zil2]

4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I can see something similar in our world today. 

It seems clear to me that the time of the gentiles is ending, if not already over.  I see many parallels between the modern world and what we just read in the war chapters, and what we're about to read coming up to Christ's visit to the Americas.  Fortunately, the world will end, and God is in control.

[zil2]

Helaman 4

I know Mormon is summarizing multiple years, but the Nephites sure seem to flip and flop awfully quickly...

v12: Once again, it's pride that leads to wickedness and abominations.  Be humble, have charity and be charitable.  Help others to stay faithful and remember God.

v13: This is applicable as a principle - don't go around bragging about how talented or skilled or intelligent or handsome or beautiful or whatever you are - when you start focusing on yourself to the point of boasting, the Lord leaves you to yourself, and then you're left alone to deal with your problems - which means you suffer a lot more than you had to.

v15: If things aren't going well for you, search your soul for things to repent of (even if you think you're living the gospel).  Repent, forsake sin, live closer to the Lord and things will get better (even if they don't seem from outside to get better, inside you, they will get better).

v16: Even after repenting, things may never again be as good as they were before the sins.  Try not to sin!

v20+: Don't wait until you're in desperate circumstances to recognize your sins and faults.  Be humble, work to constantly improve.

v24: Be the kind of person the Spirit of the Lord wants to be with.

Helaman 5

v1: Like Alma, Nephi decides to devote himself to the Church.  Knowing where your efforts will be most effective can be a challenge. Be brave and let God lead you where you need to be.

v2: Something to be aware of and resist.

v4+: And who can blame them - much more joy to be had preaching the gospel and ministering to those who will receive than to bang your head against corruption and pride.

v9: Don't let a day go by without remembering what Christ has done for you.

v10-11: Repent!  Give up your sins.

v12: @Jamie123, this verse is very, very commonly quoted in talks and lessons in the Church.  (Out of curiosity, I went to the scripture citation index which tracks citations of scriptures in General Conference talks and some historical writings, and found 91 references to this verse, not the most, by far, but a significant number.  If this link works, it lists the top scriptures in order of most cited.)

v12: Expect Satan to attack.  Rely on Christ.

v17: True repentance requires you to make an effort to repair the damage you did.

v18+: I hope that if I have the privilege of hearing such teaching, I would respond well.

v26: Open your eyes so you can see the marvelous things God wants you to see.

v40-41: We should be asking the same question and implementing the same answer!

v47: Faith in Christ brings peace.

v51: Give up whatever is not compatible with the gospel.

I often wonder if we will see similar things just prior to Christ's second coming.

[Jamie123]

5 hours ago, zil2 said:

v12: @Jamie123, this verse is very, very commonly quoted in talks and lessons in the Church. 

It's very similar to the story of the wise and foolish builders (Luke 6 and Matthew 7). And who can hear that without remembering...?

[Jamie123]

16 hours ago, zil2 said:

v13: This is applicable as a principle - don't go around bragging about how talented or skilled or intelligent or handsome or beautiful or whatever you are - when you start focusing on yourself to the point of boasting, the Lord leaves you to yourself, and then you're left alone to deal with your problems - which means you suffer a lot more than you had to.

If you think about it, simply being intelligent or beautiful is nothing to brag about anyway, unless you put it to some good use. Just sitting on it is being like the "one talent servant" who hid his money in the ground.

(You may think this servant was a bit of a waste of space anyway to only be trusted with one talent, until you realise that a "talent" was the equivalent of about a million dollars today. The master was staking a major investment in that man.)

[JohnsonJones]

On Helaman 6...

It seems at times that both parties in the United States are rather corrupt.  They both have things which really are disagreeable with the gospel of our Lord if one sits down and thinks about it.  In some ways, one could say...the game is rigged.  No matter which way you choose, you lose.

But, that's not just the United States these days.  I see commentary from others in other nations which reflect similar feelings about their governments and the choices presented to them.

At the end of Chapter 6 the gadiantons (and their secret combinations, or secret cabals) gain power over the government.

In some ways, it sometimes feels as if there are conspiring minds in our society which control the levers of power, and thus it doesn't matter which side wins...they still control the outcome. 

I wonder if today we have gadiantons (or their equivalent...of course) controlling the parties and groups that run for our elections?

[Jamie123]

15 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

But, that's not just the United States these days.  I see commentary from others in other nations which reflect similar feelings about their governments and the choices presented to them.

It's certainly the case in the UK. They're as bad as each other. Whenever there's an election I'm strongly tempted to vote Monster Raving Loony (an actual party!)

[Jamie123]

On second thoughts I'm removing this link. While he isn't "anti-Mormon" exactly, he doesn't hold back from identifying things he believes are wrong. As far as keeping to the rules of this forum, I'd rather err on the side of caution.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Jamie123

[zil2]

4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

It seems at times that both parties in the United States are rather corrupt.  They both have things which really are disagreeable with the gospel of our Lord if one sits down and thinks about it.  In some ways, one could say...the game is rigged.  No matter which way you choose, you lose.

This bit from Hugh Nibley, Approaching Zion (chapter 4) seems relevant:

Quote

Satan's masterpiece of counterfeiting is the doctrine that there are only two choices, and he will show us what they are. It is true that there are only two ways, but by pointing us the way he wants us to take and then showing us a fork in that road, he convinces us that we are making the vital choice, when actually we are choosing between branches in his road. Which one we take makes little difference to him, for both lead to destruction. This is the polarization we find in our world today. Thus we have the choice between Shiz and Coriantumr--which all Jaredites were obliged to make. We have the choice between the wicked Lamanites (and they were that) and the equally wicked (Mormon says "more wicked") Nephites. Or between the fleshpots of Egypt and the stews of Babylon, or between the land pirates and the sea pirates of World War I, or between white supremacy and black supremacy, or between Vietnam and Cambodia, or between Bushwhackers and Jayhawkers, or between China and Russia, or between Catholic and Protestant, or between fundamentalist and atheist, or between right and left--all of which are true rivals, who hate each other. A very clever move of Satan!--a subtlety that escapes us most of the time. So I ask Latter-day Saints, "What is your position frankly (I'd like to take a vote here) regarding the merits of cigarettes vs. cigars, wine vs. beer, or heroin vs. LSD?" It should be apparent that you take no sides. By its nature the issue does not concern you. It is simply meaningless as far as your life is concerned. "What, are you not willing to stand up and be counted?" No, I am not. The Saints took no sides in that most passionately partisan of wars, the Civil War, and they never regretted it.

Related:

22 hours ago, zil2 said:

v1: Like Alma, Nephi decides to devote himself to the Church.  Knowing where your efforts will be most effective can be a challenge. Be brave and let God lead you where you need to be.

As I was transcribing this into my journal yesterday, I realized that Nephi, surrounded by a corrupt government and a corrupt people choosing that corrupt government, didn't try to fix the government or the political system that corrupted it.  He left the government and preached the gospel, strengthening the Church and converting all who would listen.  I won't say we as citizens should abandon the political process - not while our Church leaders tell us to be actively involved - but I will say we should focus as much effort on living, teaching, and sharing the gospel.  And I would say from recent council from the First Presidency, that we can safely stop choosing parties and instead choose issues and individuals.

[zil2]

33 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I found this video rather useful

The pastor is very likeable and at first I enjoyed his videos, but the more you watch, the more clear it becomes that his primary goal is to point out the wrongs in LDS teachings and scripture (and informing us what the correct belief is - namely, his).  If he were only interested in mutual understanding, his engagement would be different (more like in his earlier videos).  The later videos seem to me to be about making sure everyone knows the ways LDS teachings are wrong and what the right ways are.  (And that's not how he presented his intent in the beginning - in the beginning, it was just "LDS believe X, we believe Y" and "we have these things in common and differ in these ways"; now, it's "here's how the LDS are wrong, and here's what's right".)

Whether that explains your first observation, I don't know.

#2: I think most Latter-day Saints aren't used to the level of scholarly analysis and reliance on what one learned in a theological university that this pastor uses when "studying" the Book of Mormon.  His is a scholarly study, not (from the LDS perspective) a spiritual one (from his perspective, I'm sure they're one and the same).  We rely more heavily on learning to recognize the witness of the Holy Ghost, and any Latter-day Saint who isn't already familiar with pastors like this guy are likely caught off guard.  Also, see #1 - they fell for his "just honestly trying to learn" routine and don't recognize that he's really just looking for more effective ways to preach his beliefs to Latter-day Saints.

[Jamie123]

28 minutes ago, zil2 said:

The pastor is very likeable and at first I enjoyed his videos, but the more you watch, the more clear it becomes that his primary goal is to point out the wrongs in LDS teachings and scripture (and informing us what the correct belief is - namely, his).  If he were only interested in mutual understanding, his engagement would be different (more like in his earlier videos).  The later videos seem to me to be about making sure everyone knows the ways LDS teachings are wrong and what the right ways are.  (And that's not how he presented his intent in the beginning - in the beginning, it was just "LDS believe X, we believe Y" and "we have these things in common and differ in these ways"; now, it's "here's how the LDS are wrong, and here's what's right".)

Whether that explains your first observation, I don't know.

#2: I think most Latter-day Saints aren't used to the level of scholarly analysis and reliance on what one learned in a theological university that this pastor uses when "studying" the Book of Mormon.  His is a scholarly study, not (from the LDS perspective) a spiritual one (from his perspective, I'm sure they're one and the same).  We rely more heavily on learning to recognize the witness of the Holy Ghost, and any Latter-day Saint who isn't already familiar with pastors like this guy are likely caught off guard.  Also, see #1 - they fell for his "just honestly trying to learn" routine and don't recognize that he's really just looking for more effective ways to preach his beliefs to Latter-day Saints.

Ah well - that's the first of his videos I ever saw, so I guess I came in half way.

Having said that though, aren't Latter-day Saints also looking for effective ways to preach their beliefs to other Christians? It works both ways.

P.S. I removed the link, as it could (at a stretch) be regarded as anti-Mormon. I thought it was rather a nice summary of Alma, but best to be of the safe side.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Jamie123

[zil2]

13 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Having said that though, aren't Latter-day Saints also looking for effective ways to preach their beliefs to other Christians? It works both ways.

Yes, but I hope we make no secret of it (though there may be Church members doing what this pastor is doing, I don't know).  My complaint is not that he wants to teach what he believes, or even condemn those crazy LDS cult-folk.  It is that he presented himself as having one goal, and then gradually switched to another while maintaining the claim that he was pursuing that original goal.  The skeptic in me says it was bait and switch from the start.  But maybe half way through he thought, "I can't keep doing this, I have to preach about how wrong they are" - but if so, he should have said so and dropped the pretense of just wanting mutual understanding.

[zil2]

Helaman 6

When reading these things leading up to Christ's birth, death, and appearance in the Americas, I often wonder whether similar events will precede the Second Coming.  This then leads me to try to figure out the way in which similar events could happen.  Often, there are obvious similarities.  Other times, I can't find anything. Take this chapter, who would the righteous Lamanites be?  Would they literally be descendants of the Lamanites?  Are the Nephites Church members, or gentiles, or...?  Perhaps it's just new converts preaching to wayward life-long members... :/  Or perhaps I'm nuts.

One thing seems clear from this chapter - Satan increases his efforts prior to important events - or perhaps in response to increased righteousness - or both...

Work hard. Be humble.  Don't set your heart on the things of the world.  Resist Satan!

v32: "...not many years..."  It doesn't take long to drown yourself in sin, so repent early and often!

v34: I wonder what explains the flip.  Whatever the case, we should be on our guard not to get flipped (to wickedness), and not to dismiss as lost those who might be flipped from wickedness to righteousness.

v37: Destroy the wicked by preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to them!

[askandanswer]

This is the same accusation that was made in Alma 10:24 and Alma 14:1. I wander if/how and by whom this accusation is being used today.

Helaman 8:2

Why seest thou this man, and hearest him revile against this people and against our law?

 

It wasn't all that long ago that the Lamanites had vacated Zarahemla and other Nephite lands that they had won in military conquest.

Helaman 8:6

 And now we know that this is impossible, for behold, we are powerful, and our cities great, therefore our enemies can have no power over us.

 

 

How much or how well does President Nelson know about the things which will befall us. I'm sure he knows a lot about the generalities, as do many latter-day saints but covid seemed to catch him by surprise.

Helaman 8:8

 Yea, behold, all the judgments will come upon us which he has testified unto us; for we know that he has testified aright unto us concerning our iniquities. And behold they are many, and he knoweth as well all things which shall befall us as he knoweth of our iniquities;

 

It's a little surprising and vaguely troubling, that they had to reference the actions of a man about 1300 years ago from a culture so far removed from their own as an example of the pwoer of God. But then again, there are references in 2nd Nephi and I think Mosiah indicating that these people still lived the law of Moses.

Helaman 8:11

 Behold, my brethren, have ye not read that God gave power unto one man, even Moses, to smite upon the waters of the Red Se

It takes a whole lot more than simply looking upon the Son of God with faith and a contrite spirit. It would be nice if it was that easy.

Helaman 8:15

even so as many as should look upon the Son of God with faith, having a contrite spirit, might live, even unto that life which is eternal.

 

 

he problem with this argument is that it is only likely to appeal to those who believed in the scriptures he is referring to. I think that those who were opposed to Nephi had already demonstrated their disbelief or disregard of the scriptures. I think I would have tried to build an argument along the lines of how nice and good Nephite society is when they live the gospel and how bad and dangerous it becomes when they set the gospel aside and give prioity to the ungodly.

Helaman 8:20

 And behold, also Zenock, and also Ezias, and also Isaiah, and Jeremiah,

 

 

I suspect this is a little optimistic of Nephi. Quite possibly those who he was talking with and heard of these things and been taught them but I'm not sure if they actually knew them.

Helaman 8:24

 And now, seeing ye know these things 

 

 

The things both in heaven and in the earth can be convincingly explained and interpreted to support opposing beliefs and viewpoints. They are an unreliable guide. At best they can be used to support a viewpoint or belief one has already arrived at and are less effective at helping one to arrive at that belief.

Helaman 8:24

And now, seeing ye know these things and cannot deny them except ye shall lie, therefore in this ye have sinned, for ye have rejected all these things, notwithstanding so many evidences which ye have received; yea, even ye have received all things, both things in heaven, and all things which are in the earth, as a witness that they are true.

 

 

[zil2]

Helaman 7

v4-5: The definition of corrupt society, but also a lesson in reverse as to how we should behave and the things we should support or resist.

v7: Grass-is-greener-ism.   Can't blame him, but would the first Nephi agree with him?

v10+: Not sure I would choose such a public place to pray aloud, but then, perhaps we need more of this.

v11: What sort of society is this, where prayer is something to be gawked at?  Bizarre.

v18: Like any person with sense, when we continually ignore God, he stops talking to us.  Don't ignore God.

v21: Things that should not be important to us: getting gain, praise of men, gold & silver, riches, vain things of this world.  Setting your heart on such things will lead to terrible sin.  Keep God first in your heart.

v22: The Lord is patient and gives every opportunity for us to change before leaving us to be destroyed.

Helaman 8

v1-2, 5-7, 10: I feel like this is where we are in the world today - a small number of people riling up the masses for their own ends (indifferent to said masses).

v4, 7-9: Be brave, resist those folk - they're cowards!

Know your scriptures.

v21: Perhaps this is the very reason the Lord led Mulek to the Americas...

v22: We should also look forward and rejoice in Christ's next coming.

v27-28: This is pure wickedness, when even your own brother is less important to you than power.  This is a sure way to judge righteousness and wickedness - by one's attitude toward other people vs anything else.

[Jamie123]

3 hours ago, zil2 said:

v7: Grass-is-greener-ism.   Can't blame him, but would the first Nephi agree with him?

I was thinking much the same thing!

[zil2]

Helaman 9

v16: This would have been my assumption (if I didn't already have a testimony that Nephi was a prophet).

I don't know what lessons to learn from this chapter for personal application except that there is no loyalty or truth among the wicked, so don't be one of them.  Even if catastrophic destruction isn't awaiting your civilization, personal destruction is the outcome of sin, so repent early and often.

Helaman 10

v2: Pondering is good.

v4-5: Seek as best you can to do the will of the Lord and you will be blessed.

v6-11: Ultimately, the reward for doing the Lord's will is to be entrusted to continue and do more of the Lord's will - so learn to enjoy doing the Lord's will.

v12: This is a true saint, one who goes immediately to do as the Lord instructs, not one who adds the Lord's instruction onto their to-do list, and then takes a nap...

v15-17: Trust God to enable you to do the things he instructs (1 Nephi 3:7 - @Jamie123 , I almost didn't link that verse because everyone in the Church knows it...)

(See the OP.  I'm reading 11 and 12 tomorrow - the algorithm that generated this reading schedule has some flaws, I think...)

Edited December 1, 2023 by zil2

[Jamie123]

Chapter 9: Great stuff! All very Agatha Christie! The Chief Judge is murdered but whodunit? There are the five "obvious suspects", but their guilt is a little too obvious. Along comes Nephi (Miss Marple with divine revelation) to solve the mystery.

Whatever anyone else says, I say Joan Hickson was the bestest Miss Marple of all:

Edited December 1, 2023 by Jamie123

[zil2]

Helaman 11

v4: It does seem that a famine would be more likely to cause people to turn to God than a war / violence.

v5: Can't say I've ever thought of it before this moment, but I see no reason why a similar situation couldn't happen today (in theory), nor why it couldn't have happened at any point when there have been prophets on the earth - the prophet praying for the Lord to replace one bad thing with another.

v6: Get your food storage in order!

v7: Don't wait until you're about to perish before repenting!  Always remember the Lord.

v8: It seems bizarre to me that instead of repenting and praying themselves, and even instead of going to Nephi themselves, they go to their civil leaders and ask them to go to the prophet.  This really makes me think of those who look to the government to take care of them, and who want blessings without doing the associated work.  Get on your knees, already!

v9: Well, this does suggest they did that, but v8 still seems bizarre to me.  (Not this V8

Nor this V8

verse 8!) 

Be humble.  Repent.

v10: OK, more good action happening.  Sweep evil out of your life!

v15: Don't wait for pestilence and destruction!

v18: Be grateful for everything, not just the unusual.

v19: You don't have to be the prophet to be and do good.

v20-23: When good times start, resolve and work to stay humble and penitent so that they stay.  Know that good times can lead to taking the Lord and his blessings for granted and don't do that.  Know they can lead to pride and don't allow it.  Plan ahead for the righteous things you will do in your spare time (that always comes as a result of prosperity).

v26: Because everything can change "in the space of not many years".

v29-31: Even for what sure seems like a righteous cause, going on the offensive does not seem to be supported by God.

v34: Or perhaps the people who were trying to fight the Gadianton robbers had fallen into wickedness themselves.

v36: Holy cow!  Work on your attention span.   Be quick to remember God, not to forget him!

Helaman 12

Appears to be Mormon's commentary.

v3: One reason why God allows suffering.

Be humble. Love God.  Remember the Lord every day.  Be grateful.  Seek to learn and do the will of God.

v18-19: @Jamie123, this idea of possessions becoming "slippery" comes up again in connection with the people's wickedness in Helaman 13:31-36 (tomorrow) and Mormon 1:18 at least.

[Jamie123]

On 11/25/2023 at 2:54 PM, zil2 said:

Liz will read 9 and 10 on Friday and 11 and 12 on Saturday.

Is that a typo, or is your real name Liz? (It never occurred to me that Zil is Liz backwards.)

[zil2]

17 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Is that a typo, or is your real name Liz? (It never occurred to me that Zil is Liz backwards.)

  It it a typo (memory-o?) and yes, my real name is Liz.  I was named after a Russian limousine that would only drive in reverse. (For those too lazy to follow the link, these limos are called "ZIL"s.)

(And yes, that's a complete and total fabrication.  I leave it to the reader to determine the antecedent for "that".)

[Vort]

On 11/25/2023 at 6:54 AM, zil2 said:

Liz will read 9 and 10 on Friday and 11 and 12 on Saturday.

Trov needs to repent and get on the stick comment-wise.

[Jamie123]

Helaman 12:15 - not only does Nephi (or Mormon, or whoever) assume that the Earth moves and not the Sun, he assumes that the reader would assume this too. Aristarchus of Samos taught heliocentrism in 3rd century BC but that was long after Lehi left for America. (Don't let anyone tell you that Copernicus was the first to suggest it.) Prior to Aristarchus, there were theories that the earth did move, though not around the sun, but around a "central fire" - though this was certainly no earlier than 5th century. One could only conclude that that Nephite or Lamanite astronomers must have worked it out independently (who knows what their scientific achievements might have been?) or else it was known by divine revelation.