Book of Mormon Reading Group: 04 Dec - 10 Dec 2023 (Helaman 15 - 3 Nephi 13)

[zil2]

Please see the Book of Mormon Reading Group thread for details (and discussion of 1 Nephi 1 - 5).  Our goal is to read the Book of Mormon by the end of the year.  I'll make a new post before each Monday so that it's ready to go - weeks go from Monday to Sunday for our purposes.

This week's schedule:

Dec 4	3 Nephi 1	Monday
Dec 5	3 Nephi 3	Tuesday
Dec 6	3 Nephi 4	Wednesday
Dec 7	3 Nephi 7	Thursday
Dec 8	3 Nephi 9	Friday
Dec 9	3 Nephi 11	Saturday
Dec 10	3 Nephi 13	Sunday

 

Last Week:  Book of Mormon Reading Group: 27 Nov - 03 Dec 2023 (Helaman 2 - Helaman14)

Thread Index

[askandanswer]

Is there a connection between stars and people? Could each star represent a person in a glorified condition, with one star differing from another star in glory even as one person differs from another person in glory. Has a star been a person before it became a star? Or does a star become a person? Or is a star a home for a god. This would be consistent with the idea that God dwells in the midst of everlasting burnings, as taught by Joseph Smith.

 

A star starts its existence as matter unorganised. A star only comes into being when enough matter joins together into an organised, single whole. All progress is achieved by the joining together of parts - matter with intelligence to form a spirit, then a spirit combines with a body, then two bodies join together to create a family. It is only the coming together of unorganised matter in an ever tighter form that causes what was a cloud of gas to ignite in a burst of light and power that lasts for billions of years. It is only through becoming subject to law, the law of gravity, that the conditions are brought about whereby creation becomes possible as each component, each atom, of that unorganised matter, becomes organised and entwined with every other atom.

 

Gravity is the means by which unorganised matter is formed into something that creates light. The first commandment, in Genesis 1:3 was let there be light. Perhaps knowing more about gravity would provide a link, or a portal, through which we can gain a greater understanding of how God does what He does and a means by which He exerts His will on the physical world. Perhaps we could go so far as to say that God created light by using gravity.

 

Consider if any of this fits with Doctrine and Covenants 88: 7, 9, 12.

 

3 Nephi 1

The sign is given, and a new star arises

 

 

Is this a merging of the political and the judiciary? It seems to me that when you merge the roles of Chief Judge and Governor, you get something that closely resembles a king. The Book of Mormon gives little information about the emergence/development of this role of Governor.

Almost a year after writing the above, and having gone through parts of Alma closely a second time, I see that in late Alma there are perhaps 3 or 4 references to the governor and the chief judge being the same person.

 

Lachoneus was the chief judge and the governor over the land.

 

 

This sounds like a resignation.

3 Nephi 1:2

And Nephi, the son of Helaman, had departed out of the land of Zarahemla,

 

After 600 years, this must be quite a sizeable collection. Its interesting that from more than 600 years of sacred records, plus the record of the Jaredites, after these records have been refined and distilled by Mormon, all we get is the Book of Mormon. My opinion is that if someone was to go through all of the General Conference talks of the last 200 years, and come up with a text as long as the Book of Mormon, we would get a far superior product in terms of doctrine, teaching, exhortation, and testifying power. I think the relevance, power and clarity of our General Conference talks far outweighs almost everything we get in the Book of Mormon.

 

It seems as though at this time, control/stewardship of the records had reverted back to religious authority. I think it was somewhere in Mosiah that custody of the records passed to political authority.

3 Nephi 1:2

giving charge unto his son Nephi, who was his eldest son, concerning the plates of brass, and all the records which had been kept, and all those things which had been kept sacred from the departure of Lehi out of Jerusalem.

 

Not just a resignation, but a runaway. I'm guessing he must have left instructions that he not be followed and that he be left alone, otherwise people would have gone looking for him.

3 Nephi 1:3

Then he departed out of the land, and whither he went, no man knoweth; 

 

Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Matthew 16:4 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Given what has been said and taught about signs, why were there signs and who were they for? Perhaps the problem is not with the signs themselves but the seeking after the sign. And why does God give something that an adulterous generation seeks after?

I suspect that anybody who follows the findings of the James Webb Telescope is quite frequently seeing amazing things, the likes of which have never been seen before, all of which are manifestations of gravity, mass and energy, some of which is light. Perhaps those sights could be seen as being signs.

3 Nephi 1:4

4 for there began to be greater signs and greater miracles wrought among the people.

 

THis might suggest that among the ordinary people, the practice of keeping track of the passing of time might not have been widely practiced.

3 Nephi 1:5

But there were some who began to say that the time was past for the words to be fulfilled, which were spoken by Samuel, the Lamanite.

 

 

What manner of person would rejoice over the seeming failure of another person's faith? This is not a good thing to rejoice about unless their abandonment of that faith is necessary for them to embrace a higher faith in something more true and holy.

3 Nephi 1:6

And they began to rejoice over their brethren, saying: Behold the time is past, and the words of Samuel are not fulfilled; therefore, your joy and your faith concerning this thing hath been vain.

 

So five years later, the words of Samuel were still having quite an impact. It seems obvious that many people clearly remembered what he had said.

3 Nephi 1:7

And it came to pass that they did make a great uproar throughout the land; 

 

 

It sounds like they began to be doubtful but not doubtful enough to give up.

3 Nephi 1:7–8

and the people who believed began to be very sorrowful, lest by any means those things which had been spoken might not come to pass.8 But behold, they did watch steadfastly for that day and that night

Governance must have become pretty bad if large scale killings such as this could be easily and openly planned. It makes me wander what sort of governor Lachoneous was. At the very least there seems to have been an abandonment of the practice/law that a man could not be punished for his beliefs.

3 Nephi 1:9

Now it came to pass that there was a day set apart by the unbelievers, that all those who believed in those traditions should be put to death

 

Was Nephi the only one concerned enough to do this? It would seem to be a good idea for the senior religious person to encourage all the believers to pray for the same thing.

3 Nephi 1:11

 And it came to pass that he went out and bowed himself down upon the earth, and cried mightily to his God in behalf of his people

 

This is either poorly worded or seriously wrong. Their faith should be in God and His gospel, not in the traditions of their fathers.

3 Nephi 1:11

yea, those who were about to be destroyed because of their faith in the tradition of their fathers.

 

I  wander what it is that determined the amount of time that Nephi had to pray for. Why was it that the answer came at the end of the day rather than some other time? Was there a particular benchmark that his faith and prayers had to meet before they could be granted? Did it take all day for him to show the required degree of faith and humilty for his prayers to be answered? There is some reason why prayers are anwered at the time they are answered but I dont know what that reason is.

3 Nephi 1:12

 And it came to pass that he cried mightily unto the Lord all that day;

It would seem that in this instance, this prayer was answered by Jesus. I'm not sure if Jesus is the one who answers all our prayers, or if sometimes they are answered by the Being we pray to.

3 Nephi 1:13

on the morrow come I into the world,

 

The extent to which Christ's will is aligned with, separate from, or the same as His Father's will might be brought into question by John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

See also Luke 22: 42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

3 Nephi 1:14

 to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son

 

This disposes of the idea that the Earth was tilted on its axis, because if that was how it happened, the sun would stay in the sky. So the light must have been coming from a source other than the sun.

3 Nephi 1:15

 for behold, at the going down of the sun there was no darkness; 

 

Usually night is defined by the coming of darkness. If its not dark, its not night. I guess in the North Pole, during that time when the sun doesn't set, they would define night by time rather than the amount of light or darkness.

3 Nephi 1:15

because there was no darkness when the night came.

 

it was still more than 30 years before He would appear to these people.

3 Nephi 1:17

 And they began to know that the Son of God must shortly appear;

 

Somewhere, somehow, somewhen, there is always a time of reckoning. At one point we will all be held accountable for our beliefs and our works.

3 Nephi 1:18

and they began to fear because of their iniquity and their unbelief.

 

This is another fact that argues against the earth being tilted. At the north pole, the light at night is a weak, faded kind of light. quite different from what you see at mid-day. I guess another possibility is that in reality the level of light remained the same but their ability to see in the dark was temporarily adjusted.

Another possibility is that there was a nearby supernova, although from what I recall, astronomers have considered this possibility and found no evidence for it.

3 Nephi 1:19

there was no darkness in all that night, but it was as light as though it was mid-day. 

 

 

You'd think that this would be a very convincing sign and that there was no way that it could be explained away. In this instance, the most logical explanation was because this is what the prophets had prophesied.

3 Nephi 1:19

And it came to pass that the sun did rise in the morning again, according to its proper order; and they knew that it was the day that the Lord should be born, because of the sign which had been given.

 

I wonder if any of these dissenters fled to the Lamanites, or did they all go to the robbers?

3 Nephi 1:28

because there were many dissenters of the Nephites who did flee unto them, 

 

 

 

[zil2]

7 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

Its interesting that from more than 600 years of sacred records, plus the record of the Jaredites, after these records have been refined and distilled by Mormon, all we get is the Book of Mormon.

Remember that the Book of Mormon was about 1/3 of the plates Joseph had.  The other 2/3 were sealed.  So Mormon wrote more.  Or Moroni did.  What was on those other 2/3 and how they were organized, I couldn't begin to guess, except to say that it would make sense if after the history, he wrote more prophecies and doctrine - perhaps more things related to the last days or the Millennium.

[zil2]

Helaman 15

v3: It's easy to look at all these calls to repent (complete with their warnings of impending suffering) and talk of chastening and such as harsh or something to stay away from.  But this verse reminds us that chastening (correction) is always done out of love.  Just as a parent correcting a child, or a teacher / tutor / mentor correcting their student, this is done to help, not to harm.  Indeed, it's done to prevent unnecessary harm (either done to or by the child / student).  If we can remember this, then we can look at correction of every type as a good thing, a thing that even if painful, is designed to do us good.  And that ought to make it at least a little easier to accept the correction and change our behavior.

v6: "unwearied diligence" sounds wearying to me.   But then I think of things I love doing - I can do them for hours, losing track of time and enjoying myself the whole time.  There are even things which I didn't particularly want to do, but once I start, I lose track of time and when done, am very satisfied with the work I got done.  IMO, this is what we should strive for with the gospel - building up our spiritual muscles so that we can do gospel work in a way that we lose track of time, enjoy the process, and find great satisfaction when the work is done.

v7-8, 10: Once converted, be firm and steadfast!

v9: Fear to sin.  (Apparently the example set by the people of Ammon was followed for generations among Lamanite converts.)

v11-13: The Lord continually tries to redeem various groups of people.  That should convince us that he will continually try to redeem each individual as well - so turn to him and he will help.

Helaman 16

v2: In some ways, it baffles me - what do you care if some crazy Lamanite says you're a vile sinner doomed to destruction?  He's crazy, after all.  And yet, folks always get mad when they're told things like this - they can't just dismiss the nut job and go back to their lives, they have to kill or drive out the nut job.  But it also doesn't baffle me - this is both their own conscience telling them it's true, so they either have to give up their beloved sins or kill the nut job; and it's Satan, stirring them up to even greater wickedness - heaping coals on their heads.

Try not to defend your sins - cast them out instead.

v13-14: I wonder if there will be similar things before the Second Coming - I would assume so, despite the "no one knows" and "like a thief in the night" bits - I think that will apply to the wicked.  The combination makes me also think that one should do all they can to be worthy of learning from the Spirit for themselves, lest for unworthiness you find yourself surprised when the Lord shows up...

v16+: Sounds very similar to what we hear today.

v18-20: Pride!

v20-22: Calling good evil, and evil good.

v23: Note that the signs and wonders were only among the people of the Lord - signs follow believers, not the other way around.

3 Nephi 1

I'm not so skeptical about Nephi's departure as @askandanswer seems to be.  I expect the Lord took him home - or translated him, or something like that.

v5: This is also predicted for the Second Coming - that people will say the Lord delays his coming.

v6: Another thing that sounds familiar.

v13: We don't have to wait for "the morrow" - the Lord came, and can come to each of us when we need him, and we can be his hands for when someone else needs him.  Rejoice all the time.

The Lamanites and Nephites are like a roller coaster ride...

Edited December 4, 2023 by zil2

[askandanswer]

2 hours ago, zil2 said:

I'm not so skeptical about Nephi's departure as @askandanswer seems to be.  I expect the Lord took him home - or translated him, or something like that.

Yes, you are probably right. 2nd Kings 2: 1-11 gives a detailed account of the translation of a prophet. Knowing that he was about to be translated, he went out for a walk and made several attempts to dissuade others from following him. 

[Jamie123]

I always used to wonder why 3 Nephi was so far separated from 1 and 2 Nephi. I guessed even back then that it couldn't have Ben the same Nephi - though it does seem odd. It ought to be "The third book named after a bloke called Nephi".

P.S. this is nice - it's about a poor pussy cat who gets rescued. (Don't ask me what a "cow cat" is*)

* Penny just dropped.its a cat with 🐄 markings.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Jamie123

[Jamie123]

The dates have to be at least 4 years out, as Jesus was born about 4BC. (We know this because that was when Herod died, so Jesus' birth couldn't have been born any later than that).

[zil2]

4 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

this is nice - it's about a poor pussy cat who gets rescued.

Thank heaven for people who don't just keep walking.

[zil2]

3 Nephi 2

v1: Do not forget your spiritual experiences!  (People roll their eyes when I continually tell folks to write it down, but the fact is, the mere act of writing (typing not as much) will help solidify your memory, even if you don't ever go back and read.  Memory is a fleeting thing and often deceives.  Writing it down just after it happens is far better.  It also tells God that you treasure spiritual experiences, and increases your chances of having more of them.)

Don't let yourself be inured to spiritual experiences!  Choose to be moved.

v2: Kick Satan to the curb as soon as you recognize his influence!

v1-3: This is self-fulfilling - you don't believe, so you dismiss whatever you experience as being coincidence or a trick or whatever.

3 Nephi 3

v2-10: The hypocrisy and arrogance are stunning.

v7: If everyone surrendered as requested, there wouldn't be anyone left to rob, so either they would have to earn an honest living, or the people who surrendered would indeed become slaves...  (Logic, people, logic!)

Note too that their complaint is Satan's complaint - "I should have been in charge."

v15: This is the way, no matter who you are or who your enemies are.

v17+: Like Captain Moroni's time, the lessons scale - prepare yourself, help prepare others, for whatever hard times may come.

Don't wait for impending doom to get right with God, nor to unite with others.

v20-21: Preemptive strikes are not compatible with the will of God.  Self-defense is.

[Jamie123]

2 hours ago, zil2 said:

v7: If everyone surrendered as requested, there wouldn't be anyone left to rob, so either they would have to earn an honest living, or the people who surrendered would indeed become slaves...  (Logic, people, logic!)

It sounds very much like the promises of Hitler that Chamberlain trusted. "Peace in our time" etc.

[Jamie123]

It's a never ending cycle isn't it? Things go bad, people repent, things turn good, people stop repenting, things go bad again until people start repenting again...etc.

[Carborendum]

30 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

It's a never ending cycle isn't it? Things go bad, people repent, things turn good, people stop repenting, things go bad again until people start repenting again...etc.

This is known as the pride-prosperity cycle in the Book of Mormon.  We see parts of it in the Old Testament as well.  How many times did Israel get into idolatry and later repent and return to the Lord? (Book of Judges, anyone?)

There was a speech once given by a head of a major corporation around the early 1900s.  I don't believe he was LDS.  And I'm having trouble finding the quote.  But he expanded the cycle to (IIRC) five or six steps and gave brief commentary on how each step lead to the other.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Carborendum

[Jamie123]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

This is known as the pride-prosperity cycle in the Book of Mormon.  We see parts of it in the Old Testament as well. 

It reminds me of the "Wheel of Fortune"

I always interpreted the "Wheel" a little differently from this woman. I saw the wheel as constantly rotating: the man in squalor at the bottom if the wheel learns humility and hard work and so he rises and eventually becomes a king at the top, but then hubris and complacency set in and he gradually falls until he is back where he started and the cycle repeats - though I agree that would make the goddess "Fortuna" who turns the wheel a bit superfluous. I have seen this painting myself in Rochester Cathedral. The colours are amazingly vivid given that it is so old. It gives you a taste what our English churches must have been like before the Puritans got their mucky hands on them.

P.S. the words to Carl Orff's Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi in English are:

Fortune, like the moon
you are changeable,
ever waxing, ever waning,
hateful life first oppresses
and then soothes as fancy takes it;
poverty and power
it melts them like ice
fate – monstrous and empty,
you whirling wheel, you are malevolent, well-being is vain and always fades to nothing, shadowed
and veiled you plague me too;
now through the game
I bring my bare back
to your villainy
fate is against me
in health and virtue,
driven on and weighted down, always enslaved.
so at this hour without delay
pluck the vibrating strings;
since Fate strikes down the strong man,
everyone weep with me!

It sounds like something Job might have said.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Jamie123

[zil2]

3 Nephi 4

v2-4: See yesterday's point of logic - here's proof, the robbers need honest hard-working folk to rob, otherwise they don't know how to survive.  NOTE: This principle has not changed and is in full operation today.  Don't ask me what to do about it other than to preach the gospel and keep being an honest hard-working person who gets robbed...

v7: How to know you have a screw loose: Chapter 3: Giddianhi: "I'm concerned for your welfare..."  and "...which society and the works thereof I know to be good".  Chapter 4: "OK, men, shmear blood all over yourselves, we're off to war!"

v18±: This chapter is a good lesson in self-sufficiency.  Have sufficient for your needs so that whatever "attack" or "siege" you face doesn't destroy you from the start.

Hmm.  It's also a lesson in how even the very wicked actually need civilization - a functional society.

v30+: Rely on and praise God for his many gifts. Believe, be faithful, so that you seek and receive those gifts.

[Carborendum]

12 minutes ago, zil2 said:

v7: How to know you have a screw loose: Chapter 3: Giddianhi: "I'm concerned for your welfare..."  and "...which society and the works thereof I know to be good".  Chapter 4: "OK, men, shmear blood all over yourselves, we're off to war!"

It just occurred to me that I've been up close and personal with witnessing gaslighting in my recent life.  Before that it was just a term that was thrown around. 

But this quote here sure fits the profile.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Carborendum

[Jamie123]

3 hours ago, zil2 said:

Chapter 4: "OK, men, shmear blood all over yourselves, we're off to war!"

I wonder whose blood it was - or maybe it wasn't human blood at all, but the blood of animals they had slaughtered anyway for food. Was there ever a prohibition against using animal blood as war paint?

[zil2]

6 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I wonder whose blood it was - or maybe it wasn't human blood at all, but the blood of animals they had slaughtered anyway for food. Was there ever a prohibition against using animal blood as war paint?

I hope it was animal blood.  The only prohibition I can think of is the Spirit of Christ - one's conscience, one's sense of decency and cleanliness and such.

[Jamie123]

47 minutes ago, zil2 said:

I hope it was animal blood.  The only prohibition I can think of is the Spirit of Christ - one's conscience, one's sense of decency and cleanliness and such.

I wouldn't attach too much weight to "sense of decency". What is considered "decent" changes from age to age. It wasn't all that long ago that ammonia extracted from human wee was used to bleach linen - disgusting though that sounds today.

[zil2]

27 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

I wouldn't attach too much weight to "sense of decency". What is considered "decent" changes from age to age. It wasn't all that long ago that ammonia extracted from human wee was used to bleach linen - disgusting though that sounds today.

But these folks came from the Jewish / law of Moses tradition - that should have given them a particular attitude toward using blood...  But then, they had long ago rejected any of that and any influence of the Holy Ghost, so, you know, let them pee on their linens all they want...

[Jamie123]

6 minutes ago, zil2 said:

But these folks came from the Jewish / law of Moses tradition - that should have given them a particular attitude toward using blood...

The law of Moses certainly prohibited them from drinking blood, but I'm interested in whether they were allowed to use it in other ways. (I have read the entire OT, but I don't have all the intricacies of Mosaic law memorised.)

Also there is the matter of spin. Did the Gadianton people self-identify as "robbers", or is that just what their enemies called them? Perhaps they would have seen themselves as more like "freedom fighters".

[askandanswer]

I think what was established was many leaders, who perhaps could be described as kings, over many smaller areas of territory.

3 Nephi 7:1

1 Now behold, I will show unto you that they did not establish a king over the land;

 

Something similar seems to be happening today but the basis of the tribes today seems to have more to do with personal identity rather than family and kindred.

3 Nephi 7:2

 and they did separate one from another into tribes, every man according to his family and his kindred and friends;

 

Instead of having a single chief judge over the whole land they had many tribal chiefs over smaller parts of land. This seems like a devolution of power at the cost of national unity. This really makes me wonder about the value of the system of judges. That system lasted about 120 years during which there were many wars, some political assassinations, a disasterous military defeat when the Lamanites took over Zarahemla, one or two insurrections, numerous other divisions and dissensions within Nephite society and numerous and dissenters who turned their backs on Nephite society. Perhaps the demise of the judges was not such a bad thing.

3 Nephi 7:3

And every tribe did appoint a chief or a leader over them; and thus they became tribes and leaders of tribes.

 

This vaguely reminds me of the demise of the English monarchy in India and the partitioning of India to create Pakistan.

3 Nephi 7:4

 therefore their tribes became exceedingly great

 

I suspect that there are quite a few countries that would be better off if some regulations of the government were destroyed. Here in Australia under the Abbot government we started having annual repeal days when dramatic announcements were made about how much government regulation had been cut. I don't think its happening now.

3 Nephi 7:6

 And the regulations of the government were destroyed,

 

Those who held senior positions in government and the church probably share some of the responsibility for this state of affairs.

3 Nephi 7:8

 And thus six years had not passed away since the more part of the people had turned from their righteousness,

 

The king men finally prevail although with the coming of Christ within a few years, they didn't prevail for very long.

3 Nephi 7:10

 And they did call him their king; therefore he became a king over this wicked band;

 

 

[Jamie123]

6 hours ago, askandanswer said:

The king men finally prevail although with the coming of Christ within a few years, they didn't prevail for very long.

3 Nephi 7:10

 And they did call him their king; therefore he became a king over this wicked band;

Only over "this wicked band". It sounds like the "king" was an irrelevance except to a very few people.

[JohnsonJones]

It sounds more like a slow descent into anarchy.  Similar to what happens when empires or great nations fall apart. 

People may be most familiar with one of the most famous Western empires faultering, or the Roman Empire.  It slowly retreated it's borders until most of Europe was held by a bunch of independent tribes and such.  For a while it was chaotic as well.

[Jamie123]

14 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

It sounds more like a slow descent into anarchy.  Similar to what happens when empires or great nations fall apart. 

People may be most familiar with one of the most famous Western empires faltering, or the Roman Empire.  It slowly retreated it's borders until most of Europe was held by a bunch of independent tribes and such.  For a while it was chaotic as well.

It probably won't be the last time. "Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair!"

[Jamie123]

16 hours ago, zil2 said:

But these folks came from the Jewish / law of Moses tradition - that should have given them a particular attitude toward using blood... 

Sorry Zil - I imagine this topic grosses you out (and I don't blame you) but if use of blood as war paint is wrong, we ought at least to ask why. Leviticus 17 clearly prohibits the drinking of blood, but...

• Exodus 12:7 - In the Passover, the blood of the sacrificed lamb is to be places on the sides and tops of the door frames. (When I did confirmation classes many years ago, some bright spark suggested that the "top and the sides" - being at 90 degrees to each other were a prefiguring of the cross. The priest teaching us admitted he had never thought of that before.)
• Leviticus 4:6-7 - The blood of the sacrificed bull is to be sprinkled in front of the sanctuary curtain, then placed on the horns of the altar.

Blood was not to be imbibed, but it had its ceremonial uses.

As for wearing blood as war paint, I can't help thinking of Revelation 19:11-16. Here Jesus appears and defeats the beast, and we know this is a reference to Jesus because "his name is the Word of God"  ("Logos" from John 1). Verse 13 says "He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood" (presumably his own).

I'm not saying the Gadianton robbers were good guys - I just don't see that their going to war smeared with blood is necessarily a black mark against them. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Jamie123