LDS Opinion on Appropriate Missionary Behavior

[Carborendum]

21 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The plain fact is that the garbage is unavoidable. And it's going to get worse. And worse. And worse.

It legitimately and truly frightens me, in particular for my children.

I'm going to run from it too...as much as possible

Yes.  This is pretty frightening, isn't it?

I wonder sometimes whether Pres Nelson's message of "it will be impossible to spiritually survive... without the .... witness of the Holy Ghost." was meant to cover circumstances when even our ward and stake leaders have gone over the edge.

What exactly are we to do if that happens?  The impression I got was that if he stayed and fought against those who were promoting apostasy, the bishop would have excommunicated them nullifying all their ordinances. 

That's not something I'd want to happen.  I'd rather go to a different church.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Carborendum

[zil2]

31 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I trust that God knows what he's doing and that He leads this church, and that for whatever reason that I don't understand, He wants the general confusion instead of the explicit clarity. Which makes a certain sense. I mean Jesus spoke in parables for a reason, right?

I don't fully understand. But I fully trust.

This.  Wheat and tares.  The Lord knows what he's doing.

 

42 minutes ago, old said:

Take suicide. Suicide is now not a sin. 

Quote

It is not right for a person to take his or her own life. However, only God is able to judge the person’s thoughts, actions, and level of accountability (see 1 Samuel 16:7; Doctrine and Covenants 137:9). [Handbook link]

There's a difference between "not a sin" and "we'll let God decide".

[zil2]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

I wonder sometimes whether Pres Nelson's message of "it will be impossible to spiritually survive... without the .... witness of the Holy Ghost." was meant to cover circumstances when even our ward and stake leaders have gone over the edge.

How can it not?  The very elect.  These aren't the first ward leaders to go astray.  They won't be the last.  I'm sure they're not the only.  The New Testament is full of letters addressing such.  Why should we be immune to what Peter had to deal with?

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

What exactly are we to do if that happens?  The impression I got was that if he stayed and fought against those who were promoting apostasy, the bishop would have excommunicated them nullifying all their ordinances. 

That's not something I'd want to happen.  I'd rather go to a different church.

I'd rather sell my house and move.  Better yet, plead with the Lord to tell me what to do, and if I didn't get an answer, sell my house and move.  Scary, especially in this economy? You bet your life.  But I'd rather be homeless and in the Church than safe in my home and not actively in the Church.

[The Folk Prophet]

@Carborendum see @zil2's answer for basically what I was in the middle of typing up.

I'd only add...it's my perception that leaving the church for another is as good as nullifying ordinances through excommunication anyhow. What's the difference?

I didn't covenant to give all my time, talents and everything the Lord's blessed me with to some other church.

[zil2]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

What's the difference?

Probably that it's a little easier to come back if you just walked away than if you were either excommunicated or had your name removed.

 

Meanwhile, a parallel to the question regarding suicide is to study Alma 24, wherein it appears (but what do we know? the Lord is judge) that the Anti-Nephi-Lehies were forgiven for murder - something the Church (culture at least) has always taught could not be forgiven, but that the murderer would suffer for their own sins.  Should I do either, no, of course not, and the Church teaches us not to.  After having done either, let the judges in Israel and the Lord figure it out.

[old]

4 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

It is worth it.

I trust in God that much. I trust accountability will be just.

How can one believe otherwise in today's world?

Either God is just or He is not.

The plain fact is that the garbage is unavoidable. And it's going to get worse. And worse. And worse.

It legitimately and truly frightens me, in particular for my children.

I'm going to run from it too...as much as possible, and as much as it doesn't mean betraying the covenants I made, which matter more to me than anything else.

I totally understand you believe that the garbage is unavoidable.  I get it.  Truly I do.  We started out saying; let's take a break let's stick our heads out of the sand and see what is out there.  

And you know what and I mean this there are places where one can go to worship at Church on Sunday and it literally isn't a problem.  One can go to an Orthodox parish in the middle of DC-on of the most liberal places in the US.  Not a problem.  Mention this to them and they look at you like have three heads.

Now I'm sure in some places there are some issues (and when I say that I mean a people who push it in congregations).  I've looked for it. I've actively tried to find it and I do not find it to any significant degree. Not online; not locally, not anywhere.  I've found one . . .maybe two sites advocating for any acceptance of LGBTQ+ and they are roundly condemned anywhere besides those two sites.  The Greek Orthodox are the most "liberal" of the bunch .  . . they make most conservatives in the LDS Church look like moderates. The worst thing the Greek Orthodox liberal pastor did was baptize two kids from a homosexual couple and he came [] this close to being defrocked and run out on rails.  People were PISSED.  I couldn't find anywhere where anyone was like "oh yeah this is awesome".

Literally their issues are things like "oh the Russian Orthodox is ticked at the Greek Orthodox for supporting the Ukrainian side so we Greek Orthodox PRIESTS (not laypeople, laypeople are cool) can't take communion from Russian Orthodox".  It's actually quite laughable what they squabble over.

Greek Orthodox and Serbian Orthodox squabble because the Greek women don't wear head scarfs to Church and Serbian women do.  Like literally that is the squabbles . . . petty stuff; which okay cool .  .. I guess they got to find something to squabble over.

And even with that petty stuff; there are Greek Orthodox Priests like Father Josiah Trenham in the middle of Anaheim California, who are lions in defending against the smut and wickedness of the world.  In the heart of the belly of the beast. And they do it with a smile; with a humbleness that is quite amazing to me.

One of the greatest talks I've ever seen on transgenderism and homosexuality was given by the Coptic Patriach of America.  A full-length 1-hour + discourse, just talking bluntly and plainly about it.  He was amazing.  I've never heard anything like it LDS . . . but it's exactly what I was just intrinsically taught.  And he laid it all out, he did an amazing job, the only downside was the thick Egyptian accent.

I guess what I'm saying (and I'm more typing this for me than anyone else).  Is that when I look at what messages I really need to hear and my kids really need to hear about how to survive in this world against the onslaught and to live a Christian life.  I hear it from others . . .not the LDS Church.

And that is SAD to me. I don't want to hear the emotional stories at GC and the slow-paced take twice as long to get through a message.  I literally play GC messages at 2x speed to actually hear the message at a normal pace.  I have 5 kids to raise; and I need help in raising them; I need a community to help raise them to resist the temptations of the world.  I need good leaders to communicate in ways that I cannot to teach them.

That is what the Church did for my parents in my growing up . . . and sadly I want that to be there . . .but all I hear is hey let's have the Transgender cabin at Girls Camp.  Let's have the Stake Councilor get up and blab about his queer/trans/lgbtq+ kid and "what does the gospel mean for them?".... I don't know bud . . .you're the leader-why don't you tell me instead of asking me.

I guess what I'm saying is there is a leadership vacuum in the Church. And too many people confuse power/authority and "DO AS I SAY" with leadership.  Seminary, mom listens into the lesson . . it's an OT lesson and the entire lesson ends up being about "Follow the Prophet"?? I mean I thought they were studying about Abraham . . . but I guess you can tie that into Follow the Prophet. Let's talk about marriage? I get an e-mail from the seminary teacher. "The kids were very confused about marriage in today's world, we talked about marriage, you should talk to your child about what marriage is".

Umm . . .okay cool-yeah you think they are confused, that should have just been a given? And . . .isn't it your job as a seminary teacher to set them straight about it. Absolutely 0 discussion about same-sex marriage . . .just "the kids were confused and parents you need to teach them". Real helpful there . . .I mean yeah if I were a kid I'd be confused too.  The Family Proclamation vs. the Church endorsing a federal same-sex marriage bill.  Heck . . .I'm confused. How did we go from supporting proclamation 8 to backing a federal bill that enshrined in law same-sex "marriage".  Because it had religious freedom in it?

Huh . . . I remember the Mormonads, here is a bowl of ice cream with a cockroach in it; you shouldn't watch a movie if it is a mostly good movie but has a few bad scenes in it? I guess if it were a bull full of cockroaches with a little bit of ice cream however we should eat it?

And you know what I don't see that type of leadership waffling vacuum elsewhere. It is here is what we believe; don't like it, tough.  We ain't changing with the times. Here is the areas of acceptable discussion where people can disagree and it's all good.  Here is areas where people can not disagree and it not be all good.

[Carborendum]

52 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Whereas I agree with you....

I also understand. When you get into a classroom at church, or at a family party, or etc., and half the people in there are nodding their head in agreement to something egregious and false, it very much does make you worry for your kids' sakes. I mean we homeschool just to keep our kids away from that kind of stuff...and yet we are well aware they'll get it at church. And it seems like such a simple thing for the prophet or an apostle to clarify.

As the Sunday School teacher, I get a pretty good sprinkling of what kinds of notions people have without proper background.  I do my best to straighten them out.  But often it really is no use.  

I know this will sound pretty pompous, but it is difficult to be patient with a lot of the stupidity that I hear from the class sometimes.  So, the fact that people just don't take the time to think about it in the right way is no surprise to me.

I tend to believe that this was the reason the Bishop called me to the position.  There was too much false doctrine that people actually believed.  And he knew that I'd dispel as much as I could.

52 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Unlike @old, however, despite my consternation on the same ideas, I trust that God knows what he's doing and that He leads this church, and that for whatever reason that I don't understand, He wants the general confusion instead of the explicit clarity. Which makes a certain sense. I mean Jesus spoke in parables for a reason, right?

I don't fully understand. But I fully trust.

On a side note: apparently in the previous ward we attended (which is my wife's parents' ward), one of the brethren started wearing a dress to church. I mean a dress, high-heels, and carries a cute little purse around. I'm so glad we aren't in that ward any longer. But what do you do about that kind of garbage?! Argh. So frustrating.

Yes, and I would make every effort to do the same.  Endure.

But (I'll repeat myself) there would come a point where I would realize that I had no hope of making any impact, and there would be a great danger of me and my family being consumed by the apostasy.  I'd be forced to flee the ward/stake that has become Sodom and Gumorrah.

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

@Carborendum see @zil2's answer for basically what I was in the middle of typing up.

Yes, I saw @zil2's post.  And I agree.  That would be the first option that I'd look into.  I'd beg and plead for help from the Lord.

But (AFAIK) selling the house and moving would either have been untenable or ineffective for @old.  AFAIK, "going to the cave in the mountains of Zoar" seemed to be the only option for him.  And if I didn't receive clear direction on how to proceed, I may have done the same thing to save my family from being consumed.

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'd only add...it's my perception that leaving the church for another is as good as nullifying ordinances through excommunication anyhow. What's the difference?

I disagree.  See Zil's post above for my response as well.

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I didn't covenant to give all my time, talents and everything the Lord's blessed me with to some other church.

Again, if I could not see any other tenable solution to the predicament, and I wasn't receiving any divine guidance otherwise, I may have done the same thing.

Maybe it could be considered missionary work.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, zil2 said:

Probably that it's a little easier to come back if you just walked away than if you were either excommunicated or had your name removed.

I can see what you're saying. But I'm not sure I agree. It's putting the technical need for time, interviews and re-baptism as the "difficult" part of coming back. I'd say excommunicated but faithful and active would be much easier to come back from in the ways that matter.

That being said...I don't really believe excommunication was on the table here. It's a bit of an exaggerated point.

[old]

21 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Yes.  This is pretty frightening, isn't it?

I wonder sometimes whether Pres Nelson's message of "it will be impossible to spiritually survive... without the .... witness of the Holy Ghost." was meant to cover circumstances when even our ward and stake leaders have gone over the edge.

What exactly are we to do if that happens?  The impression I got was that if he stayed and fought against those who were promoting apostasy, the bishop would have excommunicated them nullifying all their ordinances. 

That's not something I'd want to happen.  I'd rather go to a different church.

Yeap that's the exact impression we got.

[Carborendum]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

That being said...I don't really believe excommunication was on the table here. It's a bit of an exaggerated point.

For some people, that may be true.  But for some, a single wrong word spoken, etc...  with the stake pres already publicly chastizing him without even hearing his concerns?

It sure seemed like it was on the table if he pressed the issue.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

Yes, I saw @zil2's post.  And I agree.  That would be the first option that I'd look into.  I'd beg and plead for help from the Lord.

But (AFAIK) selling the house and moving would either have been untenable or ineffective for @old.  AFAIK, "going to the cave in the mountains of Zoar" seemed to be the only option for him.  And if I didn't receive clear direction on how to proceed, I may have done the same thing to save my family from being consumed.

Me thinks there are some exaggerations going on though. "Consumed" or "Zoar" seems a bit of a false dichotomy.

11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I disagree.  See Zil's post above for my response as well.

And see my response to that.

12 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Maybe it could be considered missionary work.

Seems a pretty poor example for missionary work. Here! Buy this Kirby vacuum while I clean my house with this Dyson that you already own.

[The Folk Prophet]

10 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

For some people, that may be true.  But for some, a single wrong word spoken, etc...  with the stake pres already publicly chastizing him without even hearing his concerns?

It sure seemed like it was on the table if he pressed the issue.

Methinks there's an awful lot more to the story than that.

[The Folk Prophet]

26 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

It sure seemed like it was on the table if he pressed the issue.

For what? A Stake President who excommunicated a member for nothing would have that overturned on appeal to the First Presidency. You don't get excommunicated for doing nothing. No one every got excommunicated for nothing. You get excommunicated for doing something. If they didn't do anything, they don't get excommunicated. It's not on the table and it never has been as a threat to keep "unruly" member under the thumb of abusive leadership.

[old]

29 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I don't see anything that I disagree with in that post.  Yet, I'm in an area where staying in the Church does not put my children at risk of being exposed to Sodom and Gumorrah.  You did.

I was hoping that this difference was the only thing that drove you over the edge.  But (and I hope I'm misinterpreting) it seems from your tone, there is a lot more going on in your mind and heart that has not been in mine.  Feel free to correct me. 

I can't read your mind, only your words.

Hopefully my further responses can clarify.  Tone well . . . it's a mixture of frustration and sadness.  I'm sure there is a little anger and bitterness in things.  More of an "if only".

I am literally caught between two worlds.  I love what I had, I have no regrets, none for what the LDS Church has given me. Yet sometimes once you see things, there is no way to unsee them. Forgiveness is absolutely critical.

It's like hey . . .I was all in.  We had a massive experience that tested us as to how we would response, with love, kindness forgiveness to those who did those things.  We did everything we could; it was only when it was evident that the health of the very basic concepts of God, Christ, being a Christian were in jeopardy in the raising of our children did we think about "maybe we should go somewhere else". Where should we go? I don't know, let's try the next ward over? Go there, let's have a conversation with this Bishop . . .oh brother same crap . . .nope. Oh excellent a new Bishop in the next ward over is called . . .let's talk to him . . .nope same crap. Well shoot . . .we are in an extremely conservative area. Moving? Where are we going to move to? 2 wards, 4 different Bishops same crap . . .same mentality. 

Okay, should we move? Where to? Uproot the entire family to another conservative area? Where? I don't feel called to any particular place? Okay, let's look at local Church's. . . oh great, this Church is a rock Church.  Cool, I guess. There is an online video of the guy who sang a very beautiful hymn from the pulpit literally mike dropping and fist pumping a bro as he walks down the isle . . . great next. Rock church . . .next. I mean cool sing a hymn to guitars and drums.  I don't I don't particularly want to be entertained when I go to Church.  I want to learn about God, I want to worship him. What about Catholic?  Meh. . . the pope is weird, having unmarried pastors that are supposed to give us life advice when they have never been married is pretty strange.  I don't see how that will work + alter boys and pedophilia . . .meh next.

Hmm . . . look at this small tiny orthodox Church.  Let's go there.  Holy moly . . . we are supposed to STAND the entire time. The incense is really strange.  Hmm the first sermon the Priest is talking about fiery arrows from demons literally being shot at an ancient priest.  Okay that's interesting.  Dang my feet are tired. We are sitting down.  Wow these people are really into this. They are standing and singing the entire time.  Hey the comment my wife made right before we entered is she wanted a place where they taught the scriptures.  It's been 90 mins and we've had two psalm readings (each 5+ minutes each) a scriptural passage and entire sermon on that passage.  Hmm . .. . that's interesting no one is looking around at each other during the service; all eyes are up front, praising God. That's strange the Priest comes around and everyone is lining up to touch his robes . . .just like people touched the robes of Christ and Peter . . That's cool, after Church every Sunday they all have a meal together . . .every Sunday. We've had a pretty tough time of it, let's see what they respond when they find out we are visiting and LDS.  They are just happy we are there; is anyone going to be pushy? Send missionaries out to us (for pete's sake please no missionaries . . .the last thing we need is pushiness-we need recovery, actually find a way so my wife can figure out if she believes in God and Christ . . .she doesn't know what she believes right now . . .was what happened to her too much? Is her faith going to crumble.  Please God, I don't think I can take that-gone through way too much in life to at this junction have my wife totally say God & Christ don't exist.  Okay cool, no one is pushy.  Just friendly. The wife is pretty weirded out by everything . . .but strangely enough when I ask the next Sunday-where do you want to go to Church she says Orthodox. Each Sunday where do you want to go? Orthodox. Do you want to join Orthodox? (receive glace like I have three heads . . okay just trying to understand). Hey husband, I'd like to learn a little more about XYZ . ..well that would mean we would go to an actual catechumin class . . .do you want to go? (Nope, now only get look like I have three hands). Weeks later, yeah let's go to a class.  Hey husband, these things about basic Christianity they teach . . . like I believe that.  Big sigh of relief . . .okay at least my wife ain't going aethist on me! Glory to God!

Do you want to go back to LDS Church? (look at me like I've got three heads).

Hey you know after 10 months . . . it's kind of grown on me quite a bit. No conflict, just scriptures, how to be a good human being and be a disciple of Christ.

So let me dip my toe back into LDS . . . is it me or not? I don't know . . .

Honey do you still believe in the Book of Mormon and JS? Yes. 

Husband do orthodox believe in prophets? I don't know, let's find out.  Hmm that's interesting yes they do believe in prophets and that God does still send prophets.  I don't think they believe JS is a prophet-no they don't. Hmm . . .well that's a shame. I don't think LDS look too kindly on Orthodox? I don't think so either . . .let me find out? Go to forums . . .nope they really don't-leave LDS . . .damned to hell.

Cool . . . great

Do Orthodox believe Mormons are going to hell? No, some will some won't, some orthodox will, some won't.  So why do they say they are the one true church? Because they believe they are the continuation and teach the truth in the purest form.

 

[old]

1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

For what? A Stake President who excommunicated a member for nothing would have that overturned on appeal to the First Presidency. You don't get excommunicated for doing nothing. No one every got excommunicated for nothing. You get excommunicated for doing something. If they didn't do anything, they don't get excommunicated. It's not on the table and it never has been as a threat to keep "unruly" member under the thumb of abusive leadership.

The German dude who got excommunicated for not supporting the Nazi's would beg to differ!!!

[The Folk Prophet]

1 minute ago, old said:

The German dude who got excommunicated for not supporting the Nazi's would beg to differ!!!

That is not the whole story. And you should darned well know it. Are you being intentionally disingenuous or are you unaware? The First Presidency, just as I JUST FINISHED SAYING reversed it upon review. Which is exactly what would happen for anyone excommunicated in like-wise manner.

If you want to be taken seriously get real.

[old]

56 minutes ago, zil2 said:

This.  Wheat and tares.  The Lord knows what he's doing.

 

There's a difference between "not a sin" and "we'll let God decide".

Yeap; that's the difference.  Wheat and tares.  We who stay are the wheat and those who leave are the tares.  Cool. It's the self-licking ice cream cone. Look at us who are so awesome because we stay . . .WE are the tares.  I mean isn't the point of the wheat and tares is that only God knows who is a wheat and who is a tare. It's only when the winnowing happens (which is at judgment) of who is wheat and who is tare.  

I mean, if I am a tare because I saw the needs of my family and made decisions to help bolster their belief in God and Christ . . .dang man that's a pretty harsh teaching. I can't seem to find anywhere in Scripture where that type of a decision would be condemned.

So totally agree on this website the verbage about "let God decide".  The video of Rasband or the other one I get mixed up with specifically stated "suicide is not a sin".

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, old said:

Yeap; that's the difference.  Wheat and tares.  We who stay are the wheat and those who leave are the tares.  Cool. It's the self-licking ice cream cone. Look at us who are so awesome because we stay . . .WE are the tares.  I mean isn't the point of the wheat and tares is that only God knows who is a wheat and who is a tare. It's only when the winnowing happens (which is at judgment) of who is wheat and who is tare.  

I mean, if I am a tare because I saw the needs of my family and made decisions to help bolster their belief in God and Christ . . .dang man that's a pretty harsh teaching. I can't seem to find anywhere in Scripture where that type of a decision would be condemned.

So totally agree on this website the verbage about "let God decide".  The video of Rasband or the other one I get mixed up with specifically stated "suicide is not a sin".

If you were the tare you'd be growing within the wheat trying to strangle it.

I'm pretty sure the point was that there are people teaching homosex as not wrong within the membership who are the tares.

You only get to be a tare if you join with the saints again and try to corrupt from within.

[zil2]

48 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I can see what you're saying. But I'm not sure I agree. It's putting the technical need for time, interviews and re-baptism as the "difficult" part of coming back. I'd say excommunicated but faithful and active would be much easier to come back from in the ways that matter.

Good point, and you're right there.  Though the new bishop (2) would be talking to the excommunicating bishop (1) and if (1) is spouting lies about the member, it might be harder than it seems.  Maybe it's sixes in this scenario.

[old]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

That is not the whole story. And you should darned well know it. Are you being intentionally disingenuous or are you unaware? The First Presidency, just as I JUST FINISHED SAYING reversed it upon review. Which is exactly what would happen for anyone excommunicated in like-wise manner.

If you want to be taken seriously get real.

No need to get touchy here.  Yes I agree the First Presidency reversed it upon review.  It could be that my dates are wrong, but IIRC it took a while before it got reversed. Long enough that he was long dead before it was reversed.

But again I could be misremembering it. 

Sure I had half a mind to fight tooth and nail.  And I honest to goodness would have; I would have let the Bishop call the cops on my wife, haul me before a court.  Kick me out.  Yes, I had half a brain to go down that path.

And again, I looked at my wife I looked at my kids and I saw the path.  My wife's belief in God and Christ was crumbling, my kids wanted nothing to do with Church.  

Okay great, so I force the issue . . .at what cost? So I can "win"? So I can get excommunicated and then have the 1P reverse it who knows how much later? So I can cause more rift, more contention, more anger in the ward, in the Stake? At what point is enough enough? At what point, is it like . . .look God, what do I do? Show me a path.

If the LDS point of view is correct then again . . . say we join another religion? Is the LDS going to in abstensia excommunicate? I've never heard of such a thing. Maybe so; okay great.  excommunicate in abstensia. IF the LDS point of view is correct, then why the bother about it.  We'll die; we'll go to Spirit Prison.  Yeap, I was wrong, LDS Church is right. Lord I truly am sorry. I should have paid attention better to the signs; please forgive me. No, there is no forgiveness for what you did; your Temple marriage is annulled, you have no celestial promise, you are banned to a lower kingdom forever? I did what I had to do at the time because I believed it was the only action I could take to help those who I have charge over to have a belief in God and in Christ; and Lord I truly am sorry.  Nope, you and your family are now doomed to the Terrestial Kingdom forever.

Really, that's the LDS viewpoint?  Cool.

[old]

8 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

If you were the tare you'd be growing within the wheat trying to strangle it.

I'm pretty sure the point was that there are people teaching homosex as not wrong within the membership who are the tares.

You only get to be a tare if you join with the saints again and try to corrupt from within.

Lol . . .on that we agree!

[zil2]

10 minutes ago, old said:

We who stay are the wheat and those who leave are the tares. 

I understand that you've got a lot of difficult feelings over all this, but I never said that, nor even thought it, so please don't put words in my mouth.  If you don't understand what I meant by my comment to @The Folk Prophet, please ask me what I meant by it.  I've tried to be understanding and compassionate toward you and sympathize with your difficult situation.  I've said how I would react and acknowledged that things I can't imagine may be possible and that our experiences are very, very different.  Please give me the benefit of the doubt.  But at the very least, don't accuse me of things that aren't true.

For the record, I only meant that one reason the Lord doesn't "clean house" immediately is because sometimes the wicked will have a change of heart from being in the midst of the righteous - salt, leaven, candles.  Will some of the righteous decide they like wickedness better?  Sure, that much is obvious.  But I have not accused or condemned you, only stated actions that I would take had I experienced similar events and think others should take.  Doesn't mean I'm right, doesn't mean there aren't more options.  Just means what I would do.

[The Folk Prophet]

7 minutes ago, old said:

No need to get touchy here. 

I'm not touchy. If you're going to site examples to make a point research them first or know what you're talking about.

It was war time. They First Presidency couldn't review the matter at the time. It's a non issue and a non point. And anyhow, amen to the priesthood of any man who exercises unrighteous dominion in that way. If some Stake President excommunicates me unjustly I'll just keep attending, keep serving, etc., etc. I'll be in just fine standing before God. If I abandon the church and my covenants....not so much.

11 minutes ago, old said:

I would have let the Bishop call the cops on my wife, haul me before a court.

Can you clarify something for me. Why on earth would the bishop need to call the cops on your wife?

You keep claiming that the bishop had to continually threaten your wife....why was your wife continually engaged in doing what she was asked not to do? I certainly understand not wanting to send my kid to a class where they might be teaching false doctrine...but I wouldn't insist (illegally) that I had a right to be where I was asked by those in authority not to be. I would just not have my daughter attend that class. Frankly, I'd have her come to the adult class with me. And if they asked her to not do that, I'd have her not attend the second hour at all before I'd force it the point of threats to call the police and the like.

Seems like things escalated in ways they didn't need to.

If I don't like what the leaders are doing, I'd quietly withdraw in protest and talk to the bishop on the side. I have no right to forcibly go where I've been asked to no go.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

[askandanswer]

7 hours ago, LDSGator said:

Want an ACLU card? I can send you a pamphlet. 

I don't have A CLU what you are talking about  (Sorry, couldn't resist)

[The Folk Prophet]

18 minutes ago, old said:

If the LDS point of view is correct then again . . . say we join another religion? Is the LDS going to in abstensia excommunicate? I've never heard of such a thing. Maybe so; okay great.  excommunicate in abstensia. IF the LDS point of view is correct, then why the bother about it.  We'll die; we'll go to Spirit Prison.  Yeap, I was wrong, LDS Church is right. Lord I truly am sorry. I should have paid attention better to the signs; please forgive me. No, there is no forgiveness for what you did; your Temple marriage is annulled, you have no celestial promise, you are banned to a lower kingdom forever? I did what I had to do at the time because I believed it was the only action I could take to help those who I have charge over to have a belief in God and in Christ; and Lord I truly am sorry.  Nope, you and your family are now doomed to the Terrestial Kingdom forever.

Really, that's the LDS viewpoint?  Cool.

You claimed to have been a 30+ year member and yet seem to have a very tenuous grasp of some pretty basic doctrines. Maybe someone else will explain this to you in detail...but it wearies me and I think I'm done. Best of luck.