Answering the "free choice" question from a teen.

[Fiannan]

Recently my 16 year old hit me with the question about free agency…you know, how can one say they have made the free choice to be a member of the Church if they have been raised LDS and basically ”brainwashed”(his words) into the beliefs and values of LDS culture. Of course I tried to discuss the issue with him but I felt unsatisfied with my response.

I then decided to ask him if he believed one ever can make a totally un-biased decision if all society is geared towards social conformity and its own set of values. American society is, of course, highly regimented and while we have the illusion of free inquiry and choice there are powerful forces behind the scenes that try to mold us into values systems that are more often than not contrary to the teachings of our Church and pretty much Christianity in general.

His reply was somewhat superficial, as would be expected, so I had him view this documentary (only part one for starters) “The Century of the Self” produced by BBC in 2002. You can view the entire 4 part series on the internet for free here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2637635365191428174

For those with a background in psychology this will serve as a reminder of how easy it is to shape public opinion and perceptions. Parts one and two deal with the business and US government’s attempt to use Freudian psychology to shape the masses, while number three deals with the roots of the 1960s rebellion (which led to more social control, only without values – old Freud was, after all, quite conservative in his values) and number 4 deals with how political figures today use time-tested techniques to manipulate public behavior.

It is vital that people realize that you do have choice – but that pretty much is limited to which social system you put your trust in to guide you. The Church has, as its core function, to bring people closer to Christ. On the other hand, corporations want to tap into your mind to get you to purchase their items while the politicians want to bring you closer to their political and ideological agenda. Puts the “choose you this day” concept into proper focus.

[a-train]

We have total freedom: unabridged, unhampered, unrestrained agency. It cannot be taken. It is and can only be the decisions of the individual which direct their actions. All manner of persuasion can be employed in an effort to control someone, but so long as they choose not to be so persuaded, it will have no effect. Jesus is the Great Exemplar of this principle of agency.

As concerned loved ones who look after sister or brother or parent or child, we must never think that we can make decisions in their behalf. We must teach correct principles and allow our free loved ones to act for themselves. Any attempt otherwise is not only Satanic, but futile.

-a-train

[kona0197]

We don't have freedom. We don't have free agency.

Here is why:

If you make the wrong choice God will punish you. It's his way or the highway.

If we had true free agency there would be no punishment for a choice other than the one God wants you to make.

Kona, there is a difference between agency and license. I suggest you brush up on the distinction before posting again in this thread.

If choices have no consequence, then the choices are meaningless and there is no agency.

Any decision of importance is irrevocably tied to a consequence stemming from that decision.

Honos

[USNationalist]

We don't have freedom. We don't have free agency.

Here is why:

If you make the wrong choice God will punish you. It's his way or the highway.

If we had true free agency there would be no punishment for a choice other than the one God wants you to make.

That is a stupid conclusion. You are more then capable of defying God. But as is the case with defying ANY authority figure- there is a penalty. IF there were no God would you say there is no free agency because the US Government enforces laws on its citizens and it is Uncle Sams way or the highway?

Fiannan- What you said to your kid about "no such thing as an unbiased position" (or something like that) was spot on. All initially perceived morality is relative to the setting of a persons upbringing. Christians households will brainwash their kids into believing in Christ. Atheist households will brainwash their kids into thinking there is no God- and Religion is just a brainwashing institution. Thats why God does not care what kids think (the whole age of accountability bit). Once an individual has the ability to think logically and coherently, its up to them to sort out what they want to think, even if they are idiot teenagers.

[daenvgiell]

The way I was taught is that we have freedom to choose. It is from our choices that other choices are able to be made. Each thing that we choose will always have a consequence whether it be a good one or a bad one.

[pushka]

I do believe that we all have a choice as to the direction we wish our lives to take, however I also believe that it is very difficult to live a non-conformist life within the societal boundaries of what is acceptable or not...

[a-train]

If planting a seed didn't yield a particular crop, could we choose which crop we want to cultivate? As we sow seeds, some yeild corn and others wheat, green beans, pumpkins, or watermelons. Imagine if those consequences were removed, would we possess the freedom or agency to choose what we reap? Our actions lead to unalterable consequences both seen and unseen. Without consequences there can be no agency, there can be no freedom.

Efforts to remove consequences are futile. Attempts to make choices for others are satanic and will only prove disastrous.

-a-train

[PentiumInside]

The important question here is being lost in your arguement of semantics and "control".

Your kid wants to know how he can tell if the church is true, impartial to any upbringing you might have influenced him with!!

That is a moment of a life-time. Pray about it and dont let it slip by mixing religion with "Freud" and "reasons" and whatever else has been clouding the question.

Show him examples of life without the gospel. Take him to a different church service one morning and let him feel the lack of spirit FIRST HAND!! Then let him experience prejudice and hatred by telling members of that congregation you guys are LDS and see how the mood and tones change. This is a great opportunityIMO.

[ztodd]

Recently my 16 year old hit me with the question about free agency…you know, how can one say they have made the free choice to be a member of the Church if they have been raised LDS and basically ”brainwashed”(his words) into the beliefs and values of LDS culture. Of course I tried to discuss the issue with him but I felt unsatisfied with my response.

Of course you would know how to relate with your 16 year old better than I would, but generally I would say that if a teenage child raised a concern like this, it's not because of what they have logically thought out, but it's either because of an accusation or some other experience with their peers that left an impression on the way they feel about it. I think that it may be better to ask them questions and get them to open up about what caused them to feel that way and help resolve concerns from that, than to just try to logically persuade them. There's always something behind every concern. He might have been brainwashed into thinking he was brainwashed. :) Maybe he just feels suffocated by the rules, just like most other teenagers do at some point.

I hate the term brainwashed. Technically all people are brainwashed to some degree. It's like the term cult. Technically every church is a cult, if you go by the black and white definition of it. People just use these terms to make us look bad, but we don't brainwash any more than any other church or group, and we're no more a cult than any other church or group.

Actually, depending on how you look at it, maybe in a way we do "brainwash" more than other churches, because we make religion a 7 day a week part of life, whereas other churches make it a 1 day a week thing. or less. :) Are missionaries brainwashed because they spend all day learning, praying, teaching, and discussing the gospel?

Every person in the world is brainwashed according to the things they choose to do. But they bring it upon themselves. You could say that there are certain things forced upon us, by nature of being born in a certain time and place. In the U.S.A. most of us have been brainwashed into thinking this is country is a land of liberty, whereas in some other countries people are brainwashed to think/feel otherwise.

We're all brainwashed by what information we are given and how often that information is reinforced to us- no matter whether the information is true or not. But we do still have the choice of how much we will let something impact us. We still have the choice to believe or not believe something presented to us. We have the choice to either "remain open-minded" about something, or to make a decision that we will accept the witness and evidence we have thus far received as a testimony of truth and act on it with confidence.

[Fiannan]

The important question here is being lost in your arguement of semantics and "control".

Your kid wants to know how he can tell if the church is true, impartial to any upbringing you might have influenced him with!!

That is a moment of a life-time. Pray about it and dont let it slip by mixing religion with "Freud" and "reasons" and whatever else has been clouding the question.

Show him examples of life without the gospel. Take him to a different church service one morning and let him feel the lack of spirit FIRST HAND!! Then let him experience prejudice and hatred by telling members of that congregation you guys are LDS and see how the mood and tones change. This is a great opportunityIMO.

I guess I should have included the outcome after he viewed part 1 of the series. He observed that freedom of choice as is part of the rhetoric of teenagers (as well as modern adults) is a myth. At first this frustrated him but then I took the teaching moment to show that our choices actually consist of our goals or path in life. So if a teenager is raised in a religion but chooses to go totally opposite then he or she will be subject to the programing or brainwashing that choice entails -- as well as the consequences. If someone chooses to adhere to the Church principles then the same is true.

That's why this series is so awesome, it illustrates that there are powerful forces at work plotting to brainwash or indoctrinate the masses. Yes, the Church does this -- don't you think there was a bit of analysis of human behavior taking place when the whole "For the Strength of Youth" was compiled, edited, published and re-inforced in firesides and regular church meetings? People in academics have thier goals as do departments of education, big businesses, mega-foundations and government -- problem is, many of these goals they want to promote in our population are contrary to the Gospel.

A-Train, I realize that it is not comfortable to face the truth of how programed our society is and that true freedom of choice is impossible but I challenge you to at least watch part 3 of this series -- it gives some really good explainations for how the 1950s ethics were a result of our society recognizing the Freudian concept of repressing the inner animal (the natural man) and re-inforcing proper behavior and then how radical anti-Freudians (who believed his views on the sub-conscious but felt one could destroy the conservative society by unleashing restraints and embracing the inner animal) took control of academia and leftist organizations and ushered in the sexual revolution and other ways of thinking that would have given Freud a massive coronary had he lived to see what happened. The irony is that this would result in the next generation (Gen X) becoming self-interested but also hyper conservatives who put Reagan into office.

I dare people to check these programs out. My hope is that even though there are a few nude scenes in part 3 (it was the '60s after all being talked about) that you'd get your kids to watch these programs with you.

[the_jason]

We have agency. We don't have free agency. There was a price paid. It's not free.

[Fiannan]

I do believe that we all have a choice as to the direction we wish our lives to take, however I also believe that it is very difficult to live a non-conformist life within the societal boundaries of what is acceptable or not...

True. I heard a few Brits got all ruffled when Tony Blair converted to the Catholic Church a couple months ago.

To live as a true Mormon one would have to shun the materialistic "me" culture of America and Europe

[a-train]

A-Train, I realize that it is not comfortable to face the truth of how programed our society is and that true freedom of choice is impossible but I challenge you to at least watch part 3 of this series -- it gives some really good explainations for how the 1950s ethics were a result of our society recognizing the Freudian concept of repressing the inner animal (the natural man) and re-inforcing proper behavior and then how radical anti-Freudians (who believed his views on the sub-conscious but felt one could destroy the conservative society by unleashing restraints and embracing the inner animal) took control of academia and leftist organizations and ushered in the sexual revolution and other ways of thinking that would have given Freud a massive coronary had he lived to see what happened. The irony is that this would result in the next generation (Gen X) becoming self-interested but also hyper conservatives who put Reagan into office.

Oh I agree fully that forces both purposefully and incidentally are at work to 'program' people. And yes, I watched that part you linked. With the LDS lense on the subject we have this thing called revelation. Perhaps some would say that through daily prayer, scripture study, and the general lifestyle of Mormonism, Mormons are 'programmed' to think and feel the way they do.

A philosophical debate akin to the chicken and the egg appears where one wonders if their thoughts are the result or the cause. Fears about whether one can trust their own judgment or senses emerge. From the ashes of this mind-melting fire rises the supernal principle of faith.

We speak often of the fact that man came to this earth to learn to walk by faith and not by sight. The notion that the fall and the viel facilitate this opportunity is presented. Each individual must pass into the darkness and find faith for themselves.

The mental, spiritual pains of this process are the cause of questioning the existance of God and existance itself. As we stumble in a dark world where consequences come forth mercilessly, we are our own agents to act in our own behalf.

As we do, faith grows and we act on faith and resist temptation, suggestion, persuasion, or 'social programming' no matter its form. It is not through the removal of temptation that man gains control of himself, but through deliberate decision making based on pure principles learned through revelaion facilitated by the experiments of faith.

'If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.'

We have within us the natural tendency adjacent to love to protect others from harm, but we must first understand what really harms a man if we aim to protect him from it. If our will is to align itself with God's, then our first priority with respect to our fellow beings is to assist in whatever manner we are capable and authorized in the bringing about of immortality and eternal life of mankind.

Any application of coercion, deceit, force, restraint, or control whatsoever, no matter how well intended, denies the truths promoted by God in the Grand Council and rejected by those who seek to destroy agency. It is neither charitable nor humanitarian. It is self-aggrandizing, it is faithless, its beginning is fear and its end is hate.

There is a tendency, once this is discovered, just as you mentioned to seek to destroy those that apply the powers of control, or to destroy their efforts. But this tendency only leads one to commit the same efforts of control from which they seek salvation. We have a name for this: war.

As we take upon us the knowledge of the gospel and come to stand firm in our own faith, we realize what it means to win the war. We realize that the kingdom divided against itself will fall on its own accord. A tremendous burden is lifted as we come to understand that not so much as a single accusation or move of aggression is necessary to bring destruction to Satan's kingdom.

Civil disobedience and godly obedience lays to waste all control and coercion. The Saviour demonstrated this gracefully and divinely in every word and deed. He suffered the greatest form of social rejection and stood unchanged in the face of the greatest pressures offerable by his fellow beings.

It is only in our testimony of truth that we can better the cause of our fellow beings. The process wherein they break off the shackles of control and stand free on the foundation of truth is between them and God and not even the greatest prophet stands in that process, but on the sidelines. The process is personal revelation, and therefore the message of the prophets is Come Unto Christ.

-a-train

[Fiannan]

True, but we are subjected to societal pressures and in order to resist we need to be, as the Bible states, as wise as serpants in order to safeguard outselves. We slowely accept new roles for women, new views on birth control, new views on what clothing we wear in public and it just becomes part of us. This is not evolution, it is programming whether one wants to call it that or not.

[Elphaba]

We don't have freedom. We don't have free agency.

Here is why:

If you make the wrong choice God will punish you. It's his way or the highway.

If we had true free agency there would be no punishment for a choice other than the one God wants you to make.

Kona, there is a difference between agency and license. I suggest you brush up on the distinction before posting again in this thread.

If choices have no consequence, then the choices are meaningless and there is no agency.

Any decision of importance is irrevocably tied to a consequence stemming from that decision.

Honos

What rule was broken by Kona either believing exactly what he/she wrote, or by not understanding the difference between agency and license?

I find the heavy handedness here unecessary and concerning.

Elphaba

[USNationalist]

What rule was broken by Kona either believing exactly what he/she wrote, or by not understanding the difference between agency and license?

I find the heavy handedness here unecessary and concerning.

Elphaba

Moderators for this forum has always been nut jobs. Thats why I can never stand to stick around for too long at a time.

[kona0197]

This isn't the first time Honos has edited a post I made.

I find it strange that I can not speak my opinion yet others can.

[Canuck Mormon]

Moderators for this forum has always been nut jobs. Thats why I can never stand to stick around for too long at a time.

Kinda harsh, don't ya think? This forum has only been up for a few weeks. Yes it was a merge of 2 boards, but to paint all the mods as "nuts", that's harsh.

[the_jason]

What rule was broken by Kona either believing exactly what he/she wrote, or by not understanding the difference between agency and license?

I find the heavy handedness here unecessary and concerning.

Elphaba

I agree. Are we now penalizing people for not understanding things? I thought the purpose of the forums was for people to express their opinions and beliefs freely. I didn't know we had to have a perfect knowledge before our opinion could be heard. That reprimand was a bit harsh and unjustified.

[kona0197]

I was actually banned for a few days at the previous forum for offering an opinion...

I'll be surprised if Honos apologizes...

[Fiannan]

I was actually banned for a few days at the previous forum for offering an opinion...

I'll be surprised if Honos apologizes...

Wow, sounds like something my wife would do to me!:D:D

[USNationalist]

Kinda harsh, don't ya think? This forum has only been up for a few weeks. Yes it was a merge of 2 boards, but to paint all the mods as "nuts", that's harsh.

I dont know about the "other" board. But I have been an occasional member of this board since around 2000. And there has always been some kind of conflict between a group of posters and the moderators. Usually it is only one or two moderators actually stirring up trouble. And then, usually within their first month of becoming mods- I guess they are eager and over zealous or something. I usually leave when that happens.

[WillowTheWhisp]

What rule was broken by Kona either believing exactly what he/she wrote, or by not understanding the difference between agency and license?

I find the heavy handedness here unecessary and concerning.

Elphaba

I thought it seemed a bit harsh too. Surely the response could have been placed in a separate post.

[siouxz72]

We have agency. We don't have free agency. There was a price paid. It's not free.

Very well put, the_jason! I could agree more! I'm going to use that in discussion with my family.

...it's always so disconcerting (sp?) when I agree so wholeheartedly with you!!!

[sjdean]

Im trying desperately to pick the right words here to try to explain my position. Bringing the topic back round to how it was originally opened regarding the questionning of free agency. Again Im not a Mormon (though am considering).

Im not too well versed on the subject myself, but we see the lack of freedom in society in general with a certain expectation to behave or to look a certain way. Have you ever been picked up at work for not shaving and having a days worth of stubble?

I guess the same question applies to religion. If the OP's son chooses to deny the religion and choose another path, will he be ostracised for his opinion? Is there an expectation for him to be a Mormon?

I've seen statements by many ex-mormons who have heard the usual talk. If they've been questionning, then they have the spirit of contention which is of the devil. They feel guilty about it. If they choose not to accept the faith, then, they're following the wrong path.

I personally believe the real choices, isn't when you're expected to follow a path, when you have an invisible rope around your neck pulling you in a direction. I don't believe the real choice is when you're made to feel guilty, or bad about your actions should you not choose the right path.

I don't want to hear opinions of how Im a closet alcoholic and being led astray by the devil and there's something inherently wrong with me NOT to follow someones opinion. I want to hear how great the church is, what it does for people, how it would make me feel. I think the real choice is when you have no rope around your neck, when you're given the information you seek and you follow your own heart. Not someone elses.

I think this all comes full circle back to Kona. I don't know what was said, or what happened. But it's a dangerous thing to control what people say. Is that not limiting freedom?