LDS Socialism

[rusure]

As Latin America for instance has suffered greatly under free market capitalism it is now making many socialist reforms and democratically electing socialist parties into power to address the vast disparity between rich and poor and to eliminate the exploitation that has been going on due to free-market reforms pushed on their countries by U.S. interventionalism and neo-liberal policies enforced by the WTO, World Bank and other "free-market" trade agreements.

Gee, I thought Latin American suffered greatly from dictatorial governments and the like, but I'll play along. Check back with us in a hundred years or two and report back how this goes, will ya?

[Rize]

Gee, I thought Latin American suffered greatly from dictatorial governments and the like, but I'll play along. Check back with us in a hundred years or two and report back how this goes, will ya?

Yes, dictatorial government who were installed by U.S. sponsored coups of democratically elected governments to set up free-market capitalism to provide the rich and powerful a means to exploit the poor working class and the resources. See: Honduras, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, Argentina, Venezuela, Cuba, Panama, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Brazil...

[threepercent]

OK, I believe there is are serious discrepancies in what LDS doctrine teaches and the political stance of the majority of members of the church.

me too, in fact I am stunned that people seem to disregard key tenets of our religion.

let me expound.

D&C 101:

..I established the Constitution of this land....

(note this is Christ speaking. )

Article 4 Section 4 - Republican government (of the Constitution)

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government.

note here that a Republic is quite different from a Social Democracy. Democracy is mob rules. Christ specifically did not set up a democracy.

at this point it may help to watch this:

Philosophy of liberty

ah, firehouses, roads and education!

Brigham Young taught:

“I am opposed to free education as much as I am opposed to taking away property from one man and giving it to another… Would I encourage free schools by taxation? No!” (General Conference 1877)

Regarding forced charity through taxation, President Benson said:

“Occasionally, we receive questions as to the propriety of Church members receiving government assistance instead of Church assistance. Let me restate what is a fundamental principle. Individuals, to the extent possible, should provide for their own needs. Where the individual is unable to care for himself, his family should assist. Where the family is not able to provide, the Church should render assistance, not the government. We accept the basic principle that ‘though the people support the government, the government should not support the people.'” (General Conference May 1977)

Shedding more light on this he says:

“When you accept food stamps, you accept an unearned handout that other working people are paying for. You do not earn food stamps or welfare payments. Every individual who accepts an unearned government gratuity is just as morally culpable as the individual who takes a handout from taxpayers' money to pay his heat, electricity, or rent. There is no difference in principle between them… The price you pay for "something for nothing" may be more than you can afford. Do not rationalize your acceptance of government gratuities by saying, ‘I am a contributing taxpayer too.’ By doing this you contribute to the problem which is leading this nation to financial insolvency.” (BYU 1977)

President Boyd K. Packer was also very specific on this point. He said,

"If a member is unable to sustain himself, then he is to call upon his own family, and then upon the Church, in that order, and not upon the government at all. " (General Conference May 1978)

emphasis added.

but of course the Constitution was established so that

..every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.....

what was it that the Prophet said?

Next to being one in worshiping God, there is nothing in this world upon which this Church should be more united than in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States!

the Constitution is the antithesis of a social democracy.

in a social democracy the state owns (insert favorite noun here).

in the church we believe in property rights:

D&C 134

2 We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life.

how do you establish socialism without theft?

Ezra Taft Benson in his treatise on the Proper Role of Government states

A category of government activity which, today, not only requires the closest scrutiny, but which also poses a grave danger to our continued freedom, is the activity NOT within the proper sphere of government. No one has the authority to grant such powers, as welfare programs, schemes for re-distributing the wealth, and activities which coerce people into acting in accordance with a prescribed code of social planning. There is one simple test. Do I as an individual have a right to use force upon my neighbor to accomplish this goal? If I do have such a right, then I may delegate that power to my government to exercise on my behalf. If I do not have that right as an individual, then I cannot delegate it to government, and I cannot ask my government to perform the act for me.

To be sure, there are times when this principle of the proper role of government is most annoying and inconvenient. If I could only FORCE the ignorant to provided for themselves, or the selfish to be generous with their wealth!

also

What Is Wrong With A "Little" Socialism?

In reply to the argument that a little bit of socialism is good so long as it doesn't go too far, it is tempting to say that, in like fashion, just a little bit of theft or a little bit of cancer is all right, too! History proves that the growth of the welfare state is difficult to check before it comes to its full flower of dictatorship. But let us hope that this time around, the trend can be reversed. If not then we will see the inevitability of complete socialism, probably within our lifetime.

and

I am unalterable opposed to Socialism, either in whole or in part, and regard it as an unconstitutional usurpation of power and a denial of the right of private property for government to own or operate the means of producing and distributing goods and services in competition with private enterprise, or to regiment owners in the legitimate use of private property.

whew, this is SO VAGUE, what are we to do? why don't the prophets just come right out and tell us in plain a precious language like:

"Our real enemies," said President [J. Reuben] Clark, "are communism and its running mate, socialism. . . ."

". . . Its purpose is to destroy the Constitution and our Constitutional government." ("Righteousness Exalteth a Nation" 516-17; also in TL 109-10)

President McKay has said a lot about our tragic trends towards socialism and communism and the responsibilities liberty-loving people have in defending and preserving our Constitution. (see Conference Report, Apr 1963, pp. 112-13.)

Have we read the Federalist papers? Are we reading the Constitution and pondering it? Are we aware of its principles? Are we abiding by these principles and teaching them to others? Could we defend the Constitution? Can we recognize when a law is constitutionally unsound? Do we know what the prophets have said about the Constitution and the threats to it? . . .

Journal of Discourses, Volume 9, p. 340. john taylor:

"As we have progressed the mist has been removed, and in relation to these matters, the Elders of Israel begin to understand that they have something to do with the world politically as well as religiously, that it is as much their duty to study correct political principles as well as religious, and to seek to know and comprehend the social and political interests of man, and to learn and be able to teach that which would be best calculated to promote the interests of the world."

"As important as are all other principles of the gospel, it was the freedom issue which determined whether you received a body. To have been on the wrong side of the freedom issue during the war in heaven meant eternal damnation. How then can Latter-day Saints expect to be on the wrong side in this life and escape the eternal consequences?" (April , 1965, General Conference)

… We pray thee that thou wilt inspire good and just men everywhere to be willing to sacrifice for, support, and uphold the Constitution and the government set up under it and thereby preserve for man his agency.(Dedicatory Prayer, Idaho Falls Temple)

We thank Thee that thou didst inspire the noble men who wrote the Constitution of our beloved country, and we beseech Thee that the principles of that inspired document may ever be maintained - (Hawaiian Temple Dedicatory Prayer November 1919)

Have mercy, O Lord, upon all the nations of the earth; have mercy upon the rulers of our land; may those principles, which were so honorably and nobly defended, namely, the Constitution of our land, by our fathers, be established forever (Dedicatory Prayer, Kirkland Temple)

. . [We] commend and encourage every person and every group who is sincerely seeking to study Constitutional principles and awaken a sleeping and apathetic people to the alarming conditions that are rapidly advancing about us. ("Statement Concerning the Position of the Church on Communism" )

how do you reconcile your support of socialism with these statements?

[threepercent]

BTW, just because socialism is not the answer doesn't mean I am pro-capitalist.

Anyone who is awake to our awful situation knows that capitalism has funded both the fraud of socialism and the force of communism.

[JohnBirchSociety]

BTW, just because socialism is not the answer doesn't mean I am pro-capitalist.

Anyone who is awake to our awful situation knows that capitalism has funded both the fraud of socialism and the force of communism.

I agree. And it would be nearly impossible to do so if we had, to the extent humanly possible, a free market (NOT capitialism) with REAL MONEY.

You know, we did have such a thing from 1776 until about 1890, and we became the most prosperous nation in history. In fact, we are still coasting along from some of the remains of that astounding wealth.

If you wish to help the poor, have REAL MONEY (No Country on Earth does), and a real free market (No Country on Earth does).

Socialism is not the answer. Communism is not the answer. Capitialism is not the answer.

[rusure]

Yes, dictatorial government who were installed by U.S. sponsored coups of democratically elected governments to set up free-market capitalism to provide the rich and powerful a means to exploit the poor working class and the resources. See: Honduras, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, Argentina, Venezuela, Cuba, Panama, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Brazil...

And, so I completely understand your reasoning that we should have more national socialist government control of every day quality of life issues. I'm following you completely now! I just needed to understand first how much you trust the government and aren't afraid of them at all and this post has finally convinced me.

[a-train]

The trouble is, the U.S. sponsored coups haven't overthrown anything to install free markets, they have all been to establish state capitalism that enriches only the elite. This, like socialism, is satanism.

Socialism IS satanism.

-a-train

[NateHowe]

There is a significant difference between the Law of Consecration and Socialism. The Law of Consecration occurred (and will occur again) among people who covenanted to live it. They were active participants who sacrificed greatly to make it work. Because we as a people could not live it, the Lord has given us a temporary lower law.

Socialism, on the other hand, is generally imposed upon the people. We have not seen any socialist government work in the long term. This is because when people have too much of a "safety net," they cease working to support the system. There is no covenant involved, and the administrators of the system generally take the loaf and leave the crumbs for the people.

I trust myself to benevolently bestow my excess funds through the Church and other charitable organizations to those in need. The government has not proven worthy of my trust or my money in the care of those who need help. So-called "redistribution of wealth" is a "something for nothing" approach - the Church's welfare program in stark contrast requires effort on the part of the recipient, which removes the humiliation of a handout and teaches skills to escape poverty.

[Still_Small_Voice]

Double post, sorry

[Still_Small_Voice]

I have read through much of this thread. This is what I learned in my studies of truth and governments.

One is making a large moral decision when money is forcibly taken from one and given to another. It is a curse to giver and the receiver. The giver is robbed of the blessing of giving. The receiver generally also is not grateful for what has received. Taking freedom of choice from citizens of a government of how to spend most of their money through forced taxation is not a blessing.

Also when money is given to a government entity it is generally squandered wastefully. Those officials in charge of funds do not care about the money and the sweat put into earning it. People who give of their funds with freedom of choice very likely make much wiser decisions with how their resources are distributed.

I am amazed at many politicians that promise giving their citizens everything. They don't want to contribute their own money to the very cause they talk about. But they do want to tax the money out of the very people they are speaking to.

A government that has the power to give you everything has the power to strip it from you as well.

[threepercent]

Rize, where did you go?

are you going to answer my question?

[Rize]

As I said before: The constitution was established to: "Promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of Liberty" Promoting the general welfare and establishing liberty run contrary to capitalism, as capitalism exploits the poor and as the rich consolidate power the poor cannot experience true liberty. Capitalism has established a plutocracy in our nation.

According to the constitution: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States."

So it is constitutional for the government to collect taxes to provide for the general Welfare of the United States.

Quotes from Ezra Taft Benson are disingenuous as he was political figure in that era working under Eisenhower, and was widely recognized as being a very far right-wing politician who even opposed providing price support and aid to farmers.

President Hugh B. Brown, a member of The First Presidency under President David O McKay, was particular upset with Elder Benson's conspiracy theories and his sometimes use of Mormon publishers and pulpits to promote them.In 1963 The First Presidency decided to send Elder Benson on a mission to become the new Mission President of the European Mission. This was the first time an Apostle had been put in charge of a mission of the Church since the beginning of the 20th century. W. Averill Harriman, then the U.S. Under-secretary of State for European Affairs, wrote to Hugh B. Brown; asking him how long Elder Benson was intending to stay in Europe (Elder Benson was the Secretary of Agriculture under U.S. President Eisenhower and the State Dept. was worried he would stir-up the Communists with his Birchism.

Joseph Fielding Smith identified Benson's European mission as intentional exile. The Quorum of Twelve's president wrote to Congressman Ralph R. Harding (Idaho) on 30 October: "I think it is time that Brother Benson forgot all about politics and settled down to his duties as a member of the Council of the Twelve." JFS also said, "He (Benson) is going to take a mission to Europe in the near future and by the time he returns I hope he will get all of the political notions out of his system." (Smith to Harding, 30 Oct. 1963, photocopy in folder 2, box 4, King Papers, and in folder 22, box 5, Buerger Papers.)

Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: "I am glad to report to you that it will be some time before we hear anything from Brother Benson, who is now on his way to Great Britain where I suppose he will be, at least for the next two years. When he returns I hope his blood will be purified." (Wilkinson diary, 14 Dec. 1963; Joseph Fielding Smith to Congressman Ralph Harding, 23 Dec 1963)

To demonstrate how far right Benson was he called Martin Luther King Jr. a communist and said the entire Civil Rights Movement was a communist conspiracy. (Deseret News, Dec. 14, 1963)

He wrote a book titled An Enemy Hath Done This where he continued the theme that the Civil-Rights Movement was Communist inspired and directed. He did say some harsh things about Dr. King in that book; which was not published by the Church but by a small private Mormon publisher. At the 1965 General Conference in Salt Lake City, he told the Members:

"What are we doing to fight it [communism]? Before I left for Europe I warned how the Communists were using the civil-rights movement to promote revolution and eventual take-over of this country." (Salt Lake Tribune, April 7, 1965, p.A-5)

In 1985 Elder Benson, then the senior Apostle, became President Ezra Taft Benson; the 13th President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. His time as President of the Church was marked by an emphasis on reading and studying The Book of Mormon, but in no sermon did he mention politics, the Civil-Rights Movement, nor Communism.

[drjme]

To demonstrate how far right Benson was he called Martin Luther King Jr. a communist and said the entire Civil Rights Movement was a communist conspiracy. (Deseret News, Dec. 14, 1963)

He wrote a book titled An Enemy Hath Done This where he continued the theme that the Civil-Rights Movement was Communist inspired and directed. He did say some harsh things about Dr. King in that book; which was not published by the Church but by a small private Mormon publisher. At the 1965 General Conference in Salt Lake City, he told the Members:

"What are we doing to fight it [communism]? Before I left for Europe I warned how the Communists were using the civil-rights movement to promote revolution and eventual take-over of this country." (Salt Lake Tribune, April 7, 1965, p.A-5)

In 1985 Elder Benson, then the senior Apostle, became President Ezra Taft Benson; the 13th President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. His time as President of the Church was marked by an emphasis on reading and studying The Book of Mormon, but in no sermon did he mention politics, the Civil-Rights Movement, nor Communism.

And?........

Because he stopped talking about it, does that negate everything he said?

Just in case, the Answer is: No.

Find out who financed those movements and you might be a bit surprised.

"I think it is time that Brother Benson forgot all about politics and settled down to his duties as a member of the Council of the Twelve." JFS also said, "He (Benson) is going to take a mission to Europe in the near future and by the time he returns I hope he will get all of the political notions out of his system."

The point made is: what is more important? Salvation of Souls or politics? Not That ETB's message was wrong, But the work of the Lord in bringing people to Christ is what is Ultimately Important.

[Rize]

And?........

Because he stopped talking about it, does that negate everything he said?

Just in case, the Answer is: No.

Find out who financed those movements and you might be a bit surprised.

The point made is: what is more important? Salvation of Souls or politics? Not That ETB's message was wrong, But the work of the Lord in bringing people to Christ is what is Ultimately Important.

If you are implying that Russian Communists funded the Civil Rights Movement, Id like to see any kind of evidence to prove that.

On Benson, he was making those remarks in his political position not church, and stopped making them when he became President of the Church. There was much controversy at the time in the Quorum about his political statements. They do not in any way represent Church doctrine.

If the Church included Benson's political ideology as official Church doctrine it would be openly opposed to the Civil Rights Act, therefore supporting racial segregation and discrimination. Are you saying the LDS church supports segregation and discrimination? I believe that most Church leaders would say no.

[a-train]

Ezra T. Benson wasn't the only LDS leader to differentiate socialism from the United Order and to proclaim socialism as a falsehood. This has already been pointed out.

Why didn't you just provide a link to the information about Ezra Taft Benson you snipped? Look Here Perhaps your quoting of this is an effort to derail the subject?

Ezra Taft Benson actually spoke against 'blacklash' and the whole point of his speech was not to condemn blacks or their efforts to drink from public water fountains and what have you. His text was that of anti-communism and a disgust for the manipulation in social progress on the part of the communists to forward their agenda. He clearly identified that the enemies he was speaking against were white communists, not the black Americans looking for equal protection of the law and so forth.

The fact is that the LORD intends to redeem all men from all forms of slavery, and we, as LDS people stand opposed to all forms of oppression. Whether state capitalism or socialism, it matters not, we stand for freedom from all tyranny.

Let's put the shoe on another the other foot. Can you demonstrate which LDS leaders have equated the LORD's way with socialism? What Elders have preached socialism as the LORD's chosen political agenda for His children? Which of our leaders have promoted a state socialist program to implement the humanitarian efforts of those who follow the Saviour?

-a-train

[a-train]

P.S.

After the fall of the Soviet Union, the uncovering of archives of the Comintern in Moscow demonstrated undeniable proof that the Soviets were invoved with the CPUSA and that they DID make an effort to appeal to the black cause in the United States and gain support therewith.

The Cry Was Unity: Communists and African Americans, 1917-1936

Indeed, many blacks became involved in the CPUSA and some close to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Many of them did believe that the communist agenda would free the blacks from the oppression they suffered in the United States.

Let us not suppose that those who oppossed the CPUSA and the communist movement also stood against equality in America for people of all races. Many blacks were and are just as unhappy with the involvement of the communist movement in the civil rights movement as the white folks who stand against communism.

-a-train

[threepercent]

As I said before: The constitution was established to: "Promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of Liberty" Promoting the general welfare and establishing liberty run contrary to capitalism, as capitalism exploits the poor and as the rich consolidate power the poor cannot experience true liberty. Capitalism has established a plutocracy in our nation.

According to the constitution: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States."

So it is constitutional for the government to collect taxes to provide for the general Welfare of the United States.

Quotes from Ezra Taft Benson are disingenuous as he was political figure in that era working under Eisenhower,......

well, as over half of your post was just an attack on ETB, lets just leave him out of this then, except for statements he made as the Prophet.

it seems the point needs to be driven further that Capitalism is not established in the Constitution. Capitalism can function under the Constitution, as can the United Order, but socialism and Communism cannot. Capitalism, or more correctly, central banking, has created the plutocracy you speak of, but it has also created an unparalleled standard of living for those who are enslaved by it, while still funding communism and socialism.

your post basically consisted of three parts

1. twisting the text of the Constitution

2. attacking capitalism as if anyone was defending it.

3. attacking ETB as a right wing nutbar.

again, for now lets drop ETB as being just a silly nut who had to be sent to an re-education camp over the big water.

lets agree that as of 1910-13ish that capitalism has been as central to the promotion of Satan's plan as the rest of us wing nuts think socialism and Communism have been.

lets address just one subject for a moment and that is socialism and the Constitution.

do you agree that Christ has claimed authorship of the Constitution?

[threepercent]

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

lets start by quoting the entire clause, emphasis added on the part you left out.

now lets jump to the 10 planks of the Communist manifesto.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. (thrown in here to show where "fair share" comes from)

in other words, all taxes must be uniform and so must any redistribution to be constitutional.

specific welfare (such as farm subsidies) are not enumerated and as such are not authorized.

[drjme]

If you are implying that Russian Communists funded the Civil Rights Movement, Id like to see any kind of evidence to prove that.

I was hoping you were going to have a look for yourself

I'll quote from wiki (ugh):

NAACP:

The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (usually abbreviated as NAACP) is one of the oldest and most influential civil rights organizations in the United States.[1] The NAACP was founded on February 12, 1909 by a diverse group composed of W. E. B. Du Bois (African American), Ida B. Wells (African American), Archibald Grimke (African American), Henry Moskowitz (white-Jewish), Mary White Ovington (White), Oswald Garrison Villard (German-born White), and William English Walling (White, and son of a former slave owning family),[2][3] to work on behalf of the rights of African Americans. Its name, retained in accord with tradition, is one of the last surviving uses of the term "colored people." The group is based in Baltimore, Maryland........

........The conference resulted in a more viable, influential and diverse organization, where the leadership was predominantly white and heavily Jewish. In fact, at its founding, the NAACP had only one African American on its executive board, Du Bois himself, and did not elect a black president until 1975. The Jewish community contributed greatly to the NAACP's founding and continued financing. Jewish historian Howard Sachar writes in his book A History of Jews in America of how, "In 1914, Professor Emeritus Joel Spingarn of Columbia University became chairman of the NAACP and recruited for its board such Jewish leaders as Jacob Schiff, Jacob Billikopf, and Rabbi Stephen Wise." [1] Early Jewish co-founders included Julius Rosenthal, Lillian Wald, Rabbi Emil G. Hirsch and Wise.

Jacob Shiff:

Jacob Henry Schiff, born Jacob Hirsch Schiff (January 10, 1847 – September 25, 1920) was a German-born New York City banker and philanthropist, who helped finance, among many other things, the Russian Revolution of 1917 and the Japanese military efforts against Tsarist Russia in the Russo-Japanese War.

Russian revolution of 1917:

Russian Revolution (1917) was a series of economic and social upheavals in Russia, involving first the overthrow of the tsarist autocracy, and then the overthrow of the liberal and moderate-socialist Provisional Government, resulting in the establishment of Soviet power under the control of the Bolshevik party. This eventually led to the establishment of the Soviet Union in 1922, which lasted until its dissolution in 1991.

Bolshevik party:

The Bolsheviks (Russian: Большеви́к IPA: [bəlʲʂɨˈvʲik], derived from bolshinstvo, "majority") were a faction of the Marxist Russian Social Democratic Labour Party (RSDLP) which split apart from the Menshevik faction[1] at the Second Party Congress in 1903 and ultimately became the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.[2] The Bolsheviks seized power in Russia during the October Revolution phase of the Russian Revolution of 1917, and founded the Soviet Union.

Interesting trail eh? He's the only one I've looked into a bit. Here's an interesting site for a different view: Modern History project

[Rize]

So this thread has evolved into attacking the Civil Rights Movement as a Russian funded subversion in the United States? Wow. At least you guys are showing your true colors.

Whats really funny is your connection is that one member of the NAACP at one point helped finance the Russian Revolution of 1917. Here is a quote for you:

"It looks as if Russia will have a government 'by the people, of the people, and for the people.'"

-David O. McKay, (Report of the Semi-Annual Conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, April 7, 1917)

You mean David O. McKay also supported the Bolsheviks?

1. twisting the text of the Constitution

2. attacking capitalism as if anyone was defending it.

3. attacking ETB as a right wing nutbar.

do you agree that Christ has claimed authorship of the Constitution?

I am not twisting the text of the constitution, it clearly provides congress with the right to tax to provide for the general welfare. It also did not in any way address capitalism or wealth disparities as they exist today. You ask if I believe that Christ claimed authorship of the constitution. Many of the founding fathers adamantly denied any spiritual influence in the writing of the constitution. While many would argue with their beliefs, it is fair to say that there are plenty of quotes in the Bible, BoM, Doctrine and Covenants to clarify that Christ in fact repeatedly called for wealth redistribution.

[peanutgallery]

So this thread has evolved into attacking the Civil Rights Movement as a Russian funded subversion in the United States? Wow. At least you guys are showing your true colors.

Whats really funny is your connection is that one member of the NAACP at one point helped finance the Russian Revolution of 1917. Here is a quote for you:

"It looks as if Russia will have a government 'by the people, of the people, and for the people.'"

-David O. McKay, (Report of the Semi-Annual Conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, April 7, 1917)

You mean David O. McKay also supported the Bolsheviks?

I am not twisting the text of the constitution, it clearly provides congress with the right to tax to provide for the general welfare. It also did not in any way address capitalism or wealth disparities as they exist today. You ask if I believe that Christ claimed authorship of the constitution. Many of the founding fathers adamantly denied any spiritual influence in the writing of the constitution. While many would argue with their beliefs, it is fair to say that there are plenty of quotes in the Bible, BoM, Doctrine and Covenants to clarify that Christ in fact repeatedly called for wealth redistribution.

You seem to like that quote from Pres. Mckay, but it's clear that your history lesson on him ended with that conference address. Yes, it is true that when he first learned about the revolution, he made that statement. He did some very fast back peddling once he was given more information and actually was very outspoken against Communism in Russia and many other countries. Shortly after he became president of the church he, with the other members of the first presidency issued this statement:

The Church does not interfere, and has no intention of trying to interfere, with the fullest and freest exercise of the political franchise of its members, under and within our Constitution.

But Communism is not a political party nor a political plan under the Constitution; it is a system of government that is the opposite of our Constitutional government, and it would be necessary to destroy our government before communism could be set up in the United States.

Since Communism, established, would destroy our American Constitutional government, to support communism is treasonable to our free institutions, and no patriotic American citizen may become either a communist or supporter of communism.

Communism being thus hostile to loyal American citizenship and incompatible with true Church membership, of necessity no loyal American citizen and no faithful Church member can be a Communist.

He also said when he heard of the attack on Pearl Harbor and wanted church members to support our country fighting back, "

"To deprive an intelligent human being of his free agency is to commit the crime of the ages. . . . So fundamental in man's eternal progress is his inherent right to choose, that the Lord would defend it even at the price of war."

That doesn't sound like he was a socialist.

[Rize]

You seem to like that quote from Pres. Mckay, but it's clear that your history lesson on him ended with that conference address. Yes, it is true that when he first learned about the revolution, he made that statement. He did some very fast back peddling once he was given more information and actually was very outspoken against Communism in Russia and many other countries. Shortly after he became president of the church he, with the other members of the first presidency issued this statement:

He also said when he heard of the attack on Pearl Harbor and wanted church members to support our country fighting back, " That doesn't sound like he was a socialist.

I was pointing out that at the beginning of the Russian Revolution many people widely supported it. Even high officials in the LDS church, so claiming the Civil Rights Movement was funded and connected to Communist Russia because one member provided some funds to the Russian Revolution of 1917 is absurd.

Also, while he openly critiques communism and in particular communist Russia he never says one thing about socialism. In this thread I have openly criticized Communist Russia. Communism and Socialism are two separate things. Socialist democracies exist all over the world. And socialist reforms do not necessarily include relinquishing property rights or complete redistribution of wealth. Everything can be twisted to be negative when you only address extremes.

[JcDean78]

The simple answer to all of this is it is about choice. We are each given the opportunity to choose what we do. Be it walk in the light or walk in the darkness. That principle is part of the foundation of everything.

When the government begins to go far left with Fascism, Socialism, Communism, it only servers to take away that choice that we are all to have. It goes against a major pillar of the Church. Without the choice, the growth and humbleness that we are supposed to endure will not happen and our opportunity is taken away.

In a free society we are blessed to be able to give and help others with our time, money, and prayers based on our own FREE will. An enslaved people can not do that. It is the very freedom of our Republic which helped allow the Gospel to be restored in these latter days.

I totally understand the point of view that socialism is the path the Church should go down but when you look at it in the context of freedom through free agency then it becomes clear that being forced to give at the point of a gun is not the intent of the gospel nor will it help further our progression to be closer to Heavenly Father.

[a-train]

Perhaps my post went overlooked:

Ezra T. Benson wasn't the only LDS leader to differentiate socialism from the United Order and to proclaim socialism as a falsehood. This has already been pointed out.

Why didn't you just provide a link to the information about Ezra Taft Benson you snipped? Look Here Perhaps your quoting of this is an effort to derail the subject?

Ezra Taft Benson actually spoke against 'blacklash' and the whole point of his speech was not to condemn blacks or their efforts to drink from public water fountains and what have you. His text was that of anti-communism and a disgust for the manipulation in social progress on the part of the communists to forward their agenda. He clearly identified that the enemies he was speaking against were white communists, not the black Americans looking for equal protection of the law and so forth.

The fact is that the LORD intends to redeem all men from all forms of slavery, and we, as LDS people stand opposed to all forms of oppression. Whether state capitalism or socialism, it matters not, we stand for freedom from all tyranny.

Let's put the shoe on another the other foot. Can you demonstrate which LDS leaders have equated the LORD's way with socialism? What Elders have preached socialism as the LORD's chosen political agenda for His children? Which of our leaders have promoted a state socialist program to implement the humanitarian efforts of those who follow the Saviour?

-a-train

[Rize]

Perhaps my post went overlooked:

Ezra T. Benson wasn't the only LDS leader to differentiate socialism from the United Order and to proclaim socialism as a falsehood. This has already been pointed out.

Why didn't you just provide a link to the information about Ezra Taft Benson you snipped? Look Here Perhaps your quoting of this is an effort to derail the subject?

Ezra Taft Benson actually spoke against 'blacklash' and the whole point of his speech was not to condemn blacks or their efforts to drink from public water fountains and what have you. His text was that of anti-communism and a disgust for the manipulation in social progress on the part of the communists to forward their agenda. He clearly identified that the enemies he was speaking against were white communists, not the black Americans looking for equal protection of the law and so forth.

The fact is that the LORD intends to redeem all men from all forms of slavery, and we, as LDS people stand opposed to all forms of oppression. Whether state capitalism or socialism, it matters not, we stand for freedom from all tyranny.

Let's put the shoe on another the other foot. Can you demonstrate which LDS leaders have equated the LORD's way with socialism? What Elders have preached socialism as the LORD's chosen political agenda for His children? Which of our leaders have promoted a state socialist program to implement the humanitarian efforts of those who follow the Saviour?

-a-train

I didnt overlook your post. I responded:

While he openly critiques communism and in particular communist Russia he never says one thing about socialism. In this thread I have openly criticized Communist Russia. Communism and Socialism are two separate things. Socialist democracies exist all over the world. And socialist reforms do not necessarily include relinquishing property rights or complete redistribution of wealth. Everything can be twisted to be negative when you only address extremes.

I am not looking to derail the subject, but when quotes were brought up from Ezra Taft Benson I put them into the proper context. He was a political figure, a very far right political figure. When he became President of the Church he never again made political statements such as those quoted by others here. The Quorum repeatedly voiced concerns about his use of church publications and venues as a place to disseminate his political ideologies which did include very harsh critiques of the Civil Rights Act and movement along with MLK Jr.

I have repeatedly cited over and over again scriptures and references from prophets and church leaders calling for wealth redistribution, and the condemnation of the accumulation of vast majorities of wealth in the hands of a few.

Again to cite a few:

"You would have classes established here, some very poor and some very rich. Now, the Lord is not going to have anything of that kind. There has to be an equality; and we have to observe these principles that are designed to give every one the privilege of gathering around him the comforts and conveniences of life.” Lorenzo Snow (Journal of Discourses 19:349)

"It is not given that one man should possess that which is above another" (Doctrine and Covenants 49:20).

"Appoint unto this people their portions, every man equal according to his family, according to his circumstances and his wants and needs" (Doctrine and Covenants 51:3).

And behold, thou wilt remember the poor, and consecrate of thy properties for their support that which thou hast to impart unto them, with a covenant and a deed which cannot be broken. (D&C 42:30)

Therefore, if any man shall take of the abundance which I have made, and impart not his portion, according to the law of my gospel, unto the poor and the needy, he shall, with the wicked, lift up his eyes in hell, being in torment. (D&C 104:18)

Wo unto you rich men, that will not give your substance to the poor, for your riches will canker your souls; and this shall be your lamentation in the day of visitation, and of judgment, and of indignation: The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and my soul is not saved! (D&C 56:16)