Satan knew not the mind of God

[Vort]

On 8/25/2024 at 5:31 PM, mikbone said:

The temple narrative hints that after Adam and Eve fell, Eve could recognize Lucifer for who he was during the pre-mortal existence.

Yet when Adam sacrifices the lambs, He has no idea that it is a similitude of the sacrifice of the Only Begotten.  Moses 5:7

The temple drama is a representation of reality that surely touches on many essential truths, but at the same time is going to be a somewhat figurative representation, to some extent, of whatv actually went on. Therefore, it's hard to pin down a given meaning to a lot of elements of that drama.

Nevertheless, I would suggest that the fact that Eve, even after the Fall, was still in the garden when she identified Satan as the erstwhile Lucifer, but Adam was outside the garden when he was required to sacrifice, makes a lot of difference. I'm sure the"veil of forgetfulness" is not monolithic, but has many degrees or levels.

[laronius]

9 hours ago, Vort said:

Satan may indeed be very smart in the carnal sense, but as Elder Bruce R. McConkie made clear, he lacks the least spark of intelligence.

 

16 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

The following verses found in Alma 12 appear to be particularly applicable to this situation. Apparently it’s possible for a man to possess some degree of the knowledge of God through inspiration from the Almighty, but if that man hardens his heart against the knowledge of God he has thus far received, and continues to remain in that hardened state of mind without remorse of conscience and repentance, he will eventually forget what he once knew in what appears to be a state of spiritual amnesia. It seems that once the spirit of revelation is lost through rebellion, clarity of thought ends and all that remains to be perceived and understood emanates from a bottomless pit of lies and distortions of truth.

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. (Alma 12)

I think this is an important distinction that is perhaps not fully understood. Certainly a person can intellectually know or understand something and yet not believe it. A person can also know something intellectually and even believe it and yet have very little actual experience with it (which provides a much deeper level of understanding). 

So when we talk of losing light (spiritually speaking) what exactly is being lost? Is it just belief or is it something more, actual knowledge of something?  

I don't think Satan could do his job so well if he had knowledge erased. After all, it's difficult to oppose something when you don't even know what you oppose.

As far as belief goes, it makes we wonder whether that was even an issue in the premortal world. When God presented his plan, was it even considered possible that it might not work? Did Satan disbelief the plan or did he simply reject it?

At the present, I think Satan had/has a very clear recollection of all that was discussed in that grand council. But what exactly was discussed?

10 hours ago, Vort said:

A natural inference is that the Fall had already been carefully explained and planned out, not only in the present case for our Earth but for worlds before. Satan's stroke of genius, as he supposed, was that he would throw a wrench into the works by introducing the Fall out of sequence. Ha! Gotcha, Father! Now you're playing by MY rules! Unfortunately for the serpent, Father had foreseen and planned for this eventuality.

As depicted in Genesis and in the temple, Satan reminds me strongly of many Hollywood actors, who present a smooth and attractive façade to mask their unending malevolence and hatred. God forbid that we who call ourselves Saints be deceived by such.

@Vort your comment here touches on something I've wondered about. We just assume that when we talk about the grand council in heaven that it was specifically for those on this earth. What if it wasn't? What if all the inhabitants of the other worlds were there as well and the general plan is what Lucifer heard and then after his rebellion and expulsion there was another council held specifically for those coming to this earth to explain the modifications. This would certainly leave Satan in the dark to a degree. 

[estradling75]

I don't think we need to look that hard on why Satan did what he did.

I think we all understand how sometimes we can desire something so desperately that we over blow the evidences that support our desire and minimize the evidences against what we want.  Con-artist take advantage of this all the time even though we think we are to smart to be suckered in.

Satan wants what he wants so badly that he convinces himself that he can thwart the plan or maybe even that his plan might work (It can not).  His mind is darkened not because God did something tricky or sneaky, but because Satan conned himself and those that followed him.

 

 

[zil2]

52 minutes ago, laronius said:

So when we talk of losing light (spiritually speaking) what exactly is being lost? Is it just belief or is it something more, actual knowledge of something?  

When I was in grade school (K-12), I was exceptional at math. It was like doing puzzles to me - fun.  But I couldn't imagine myself in any career that involved math (I wanted to be a writer) and tested out of math for college, so my last math class was in 11th grade.  I remember a² + b² = c² and that's about it.   Plus the story of my friend (the one who forgot a lot of Church teachings and just organizational info).  I have no trouble at all believing that folks can actually forget the truth they once knew, if they fail to live by it.

Quote

Alma 10:6 Nevertheless, I did harden my heart, for I was called many times and I would not hear; therefore I knew concerning these things, yet I would not know; therefore I went on rebelling against God, in the wickedness of my heart, even until the fourth day of this seventh month, which is in the tenth year of the reign of the judges.

Quote

Alma 30:53 But behold, the devil hath deceived me; for he appeared unto me in the form of an angel, and said unto me: Go and reclaim this people, for they have all gone astray after an unknown God. And he said unto me: There is no God; yea, and he taught me that which I should say. And I have taught his words; and I taught them because they were pleasing unto the carnal mind; and I taught them, even until I had much success, insomuch that I verily believed that they were true; and for this cause I withstood the truth, even until I have brought this great curse upon me.

...eventually, if something doesn't turn you around, you start to believe your own lies.

 

52 minutes ago, laronius said:

I don't think Satan could do his job so well if he had knowledge erased. After all, it's difficult to oppose something when you don't even know what you oppose.

The knowledge he uses, sure.  But look at how many people through the years have preached pure hatred against our faith, often based on erroneous understanding of what we believe - half-truths and distortions at best.

Of course, Satan is a special case (as will be all the sons of perdition): at least at the time of his being cast out, he knew the truth, and understood fully that he was rejecting Christ and rebelling against God - otherwise, he would not have become perdition.  But what changed after that is uncertain - I think he could be believing his own lies, forgetting the parts he doesn't want to know, losing the light of God that gives understanding...

Edited August 29, 2024 by zil2

[JohnsonJones]

3 hours ago, zil2 said:

When I was in grade school (K-12), I was exceptional at math. It was like doing puzzles to me - fun.  But I couldn't imagine myself in any career that involved math (I wanted to be a writer) and tested out of math for college, so my last math class was in 11th grade.  I remember a² + b² = c² and that's about it.   Plus the story of my friend (the one who forgot a lot of Church teachings and just organizational info).  I have no trouble at all believing that folks can actually forget the truth they once knew, if they fail to live by it.

...eventually, if something doesn't turn you around, you start to believe your own lies.

 

The knowledge he uses, sure.  But look at how many people through the years have preached pure hatred against our faith, often based on erroneous understanding of what we believe - half-truths and distortions at best.

Of course, Satan is a special case (as will be all the sons of perdition): at least at the time of his being cast out, he knew the truth, and understood fully that he was rejecting Christ and rebelling against God - otherwise, he would not have become perdition.  But what changed after that is uncertain - I think he could be believing his own lies, forgetting the parts he doesn't want to know, losing the light of God that gives understanding...

 

I view it more like this...

The Adversary fully knows what the plan of salvation is.  He knows fully how it works and why it works.  He is very angry and hates the plan and all of us.  He knows that at the end he will lose and he is angry about that as well.

If he has to be miserable, then he is going to make as many of us just as miserable if not more so than he is.  He will use anything in the book to make it so as many of us are miserable and unhappy.  It's the only way he feels he can get revenge.  If he can make ALL of us unhappy and drag us down to hell...he would.  That's his revenge, or so he envisions.  If he has to lose, he wants to make sure everyone else loses right along with him.

In Adam and Eve's state in the Garden of Eden no one was going to be unhappy or miserable.  The ONLY way for that to start happening is if Adam or Eve or both of them fell.  Hence, even if he knew that would be part of a plan, it also worked to his advantage.  Only by having them fall could he have a chance to make others miserable and unhappy. 

I think he's being very successful today for those who are in mortality in making a LOT of people sad.  With the atonement though, we know that most everyone will not have to suffer like that, so though he has success now, he won't always have that amount of success.

Edited August 30, 2024 by JohnsonJones

[Jersey Boy]

21 hours ago, laronius said:

 

I think this is an important distinction that is perhaps not fully understood. Certainly a person can intellectually know or understand something and yet not believe it. A person can also know something intellectually and even believe it and yet have very little actual experience with it (which provides a much deeper level of understanding). 

So when we talk of losing light (spiritually speaking) what exactly is being lost? Is it just belief or is it something more, actual knowledge of something?  

I don't think Satan could do his job so well if he had knowledge erased. After all, it's difficult to oppose something when you don't even know what you oppose.

As far as belief goes, it makes we wonder whether that was even an issue in the premortal world. When God presented his plan, was it even considered possible that it might not work? Did Satan disbelief the plan or did he simply reject it?

At the present, I think Satan had/has a very clear recollection of all that was discussed in that grand council. But what exactly was discussed?

@Vort your comment here touches on something I've wondered about. We just assume that when we talk about the grand council in heaven that it was specifically for those on this earth. What if it wasn't? What if all the inhabitants of the other worlds were there as well and the general plan is what Lucifer heard and then after his rebellion and expulsion there was another council held specifically for those coming to this earth to explain the modifications. This would certainly leave Satan in the dark to a degree. 

The original question you were pondering is how is it possible that a highly intelligent spirit son of God, one who was also a major participant in the council in heaven, could not know the mind and purposes of God in relation to the creation of man and the fall? I addressed your question by highlighting verses from Alma 12 that teach when a man descends into outer spiritual darkness due to his total rebellion against God, that man loses whatever portion of divine light and knowledge he once possessed, and, as Alma testified, ultimately gets to the point where he knows nothing pertaining to the mind, will and purposes of God. Lucifer is most certainly the prototypical example of a once spiritually enlightened individual who descends into total spiritual darkness and loses the any and all ability to rightly discern between good and evil. 

The interesting point to ponder with regard to those who suffer the total loss of God’s light is to consider how a human mind might process thoughts after a complete absence of divine light is removed. A human mind totally devoid of the influence of the light of Christ is hard to imagine because how many of us have actually met a son of perdition (a man in whom the uplifting and enlightening light of God has been totally extinguished)? Nevertheless, I would say that those few who actually do become sons of perdition must have a very defective and warped way of processing their thoughts because their minds are utterly devoid of God’s true eternal perspective on all things, and a human mind utterly devoid of divine light must therefore be totally blind when it comes to properly perceiving and understanding the things of God. Therefore all bets are off when it comes to just how blind, delusional and distorted the thought processes of the sons of perdition might be.

Edited August 30, 2024 by Jersey Boy