Word Usage in the Book of Mormon

[zil2]

Maybe we should get @Jamie123 to do drawings for us!

[mikbone]

From Chat GPT with minimal inputs.

[zil2]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Then I'm in a completely different mind-set.  Could I ask you to start with a blank slate and explain the way you see all these descriptions?

In preparation for this, I used BlueLetterBible.org to look up the Hebrew for "fountain" when it appears in the Old Testament.  This confirms my personal belief that what got translated into English as "fountain" has nothing to do with anything constructed - it is a well, spring, or source (and other surprising things in one entry).  Here are the three different Hebrew terms that have been translated as "fountain" in English:

• 'ayin
• ma'yan
• maqor

Also in preparation, I'll mention that when I dissect chapter 8, it will be in isolation, without the hindsight of Nephi's interpretation - I will treat it as it is.

Then I will move on to Nephi's vision.  As far as I can tell, Nephi did not see Lehi's vision - he saw bits and got the interpretations (which was what he asked for).  Further, Nephi's vision didn't follow the same sequence as Lehi's - Nephi starts out with the interpretation of the tree (the end of Lehi's vision).  I see no reason to assume that everything Nephi saw or commented on ties back to something that Lehi saw.  Certainly, Nephi got all the important interpretations of the symbols in Lehi's vision, but he also got a lot more.

FWIW.

(Maybe I'll get to more tonight, maybe not.  At this point, I don't intend to tackle it until tomorrow.)

[Carborendum]

11 hours ago, mikbone said:

From Chat GPT with minimal inputs.

About the only thing it got right was the Tree of Life.  There is a good reason it looks like it does.

[mikbone]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

About the only thing it got right was the Tree of Life.  There is a good reason it looks like it does.

If you pay for the service you can have it refine the image repeatedly until you get it just right.  Im just too cheap to pay.  

Dang good product with two-sentence input and in 20 seconds this was returned.   

Edited September 26, 2024 by mikbone

[Carborendum]

19 minutes ago, mikbone said:

If you pay for the service you can have it refine the image repeatedly until you get it just right.  Im just too cheap to pay.  

Dang good product with two-sentence input and in 20 seconds this was returned.   

Curious.  What were the two sentences?

[mikbone]

Paint a picture of Lehi's Dream from the Book of Mormon.  Use Nephi's interpretation as well. 

You can ask it to produce the image in different styles, like renaissance, etc. 

You get one free picture a day.  I think it's unlimited for a fee of $20 a month. 

It also gives you a verbal explanation for the picture.  Although it recognized the importance of the iron rod, it forgot to place it in the picture.

Today’s attempt.

The truck is a nice addition.  Is that a golden sailboat on the top of the great and spacious building?

Edited September 26, 2024 by mikbone

[Carborendum]

14 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Today’s attempt.

The truck is a nice addition.  Is that a golden sailboat on the top of the great and spacious building?

It drew a building resembling an LDS temple's architecture as the great and spacious building.  What do you make of that?

[mikbone]

23 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

It drew a building resembling an LDS temple's architecture as the great and spacious building.  What do you make of that?

Chat GPT can see thru Lucifer’s deceptions.  Yeah it looks like a temple from the outside all welcoming, clean and bright.  It also wants you to think about things like rest and recreation on Sunday like heading out to the lake instead of worshipping God. Hence the boat on the pinnacle spire.

No doubt the interior is falling apart and it’s more of a dungeon on the inside.

[Carborendum]

23 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Chat GPT can see thru Lucifer’s deceptions.  Yeah it looks like a temple from the outside all welcoming, clean and bright.  It also wants you to think about things like rest and recreation on Sunday like heading out to the lake instead of worshipping God. Hence the boat on the pinnacle spire.

No doubt the interior is falling apart and it’s more of a dungeon on the inside.

How do you get ChatGPT to create an image?  I just got onto the site.  It gave a great description of what would be inside the building.  But when I asked to create an image based on that description it said:

Quote

I can't create images directly, but I can help you visualize it further!

 

[mikbone]

13 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

How do you get ChatGPT to create an image?  I just got onto the site.  It gave a great description of what would be inside the building.  But when I asked to create an image based on that description it said:

 

I used this on my iphone

[NeuroTypical]

This is my favorite depiction of the tree of life, from a POV I used to possess:

You rod-grabbers talk smack about the folks in the building, but the rent is cheap, all the apartments are fully furnished and climate controlled, free buffets on Tuesdays, and the view is to die for!

(Full disclosure - I intentionally made the switch and let my lease lapse back in 1996 to join you people.  I must admit that I made the right choice, although I still struggle with the finger pointing and mocking stuff.)

[mikbone]

34 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

This is my favorite depiction of the tree of life, from a POV I used to possess:

[zil2]

OK, I'll do chapter 8 now and Nephi's chapters later.  FWIW, I think there's no real point to this. I never see beyond the obvious.  You may wish to pull up the chapter and follow along as I go in order, starting at v4.

1. "dark and dreary wilderness" - sounds a lot like the mortal, fallen world. I note that Lehi only sees it - doesn't mean he's in it...

2. A man dressed in a white robe.  Good guy? Bad guy? It's uncertain.

3. Lehi follows dude and discovers that now he's in a "dark and dreary waste" - is this the same as the wilderness? Did we go through the wilderness and end up in the waste?  I dunno.  Meanwhile, his guide seems to have disappeared.

4. After many hours, he decides to pray and spots a large and spacious field.  (Field suggests growth, living stuff; waste suggests absence of those.)  Later, assuming it's the same field (and I think it is), it's described as "as if it had been a world".

5. And he see a tree. He goes and "partakes" of the fruit.

• fruit was desirable to make one happy
• sweeter than anything he'd tasted before
• whiter than anything he'd seen before
• fills the soul with exceedingly great joy

6. Wants his family to partake, so he looks around and sees a river.

• it ran along
• it was near the tree
• the head was "a little way off" (within shouting distance)
• flows toward the tree (see later; presumably past it)
• the rod of iron and the strait and narrow path come along its bank

7. The obedient members of his family are at the head of the river, but don't know where to go from there.  Lehi has to use a loud voice to call to them (giving an idea of what "a little way off" means).  Laman and Lemuel are somewhere in the general direction, but decline to come further.  Presumably, they're farther away than the head of the river.

• The head of the river would be a spring, oasis, pond or something - water coming up from the ground and flowing from this spot.

8. He sees a rod of iron.  It extends along the bank of the river.  It leads to the tree.  Thus, the river flows toward the tree - because the rod of iron that leads to the tree is along its bank.  (The only alternative is that the river flows in two (or more) directions from its head (which might make two (or more) rivers, technically), but I don't know if that's a normal occurrence, and only one river is mentioned.)

• the rod of iron does not extend as far away from the tree as the path extends (see below)
• it appears to have a definite starting point (how else could folk catch hold of "the end" and come toward the tree?)
• it is unclear whether the rod of iron starts at/by/near the head of the river or closer to the tree than the head of the river. But he sees it when L&L refuse to come to the tree, so it's got to be somewhere in the vicinity, and since it's along the bank of the river, it probably doesn't start farther away than the head of the river.

9. Then he spots a strait and narrow path

• "comes along" by the rod of iron to the tree.
• in the other direction, it "led by" the head of the fountain (aka the head of the river) unto a large and spacious field (see #4).  This suggests that the path terminates at the tree and if you walk the other direction, you go past the head of the river to "a large and spacious field, as if it had been a world" - presumably the other end of the path since:
• many people were trying to reach the path (I suppose they could be coming at it from the sides and it could extend through the entire field/world)
• tempting as it may be to think of the strait and narrow path in this vision as the covenant path, starting with baptism, the absence of a gate, the fact that it extends out into the field farther than the rod, suggests that this is simply the path to Christ, which can be started before covenants, but then continue after covenants (perhaps the rod represents the start of covenants)

10. After people start on the path, a mist of darkness shows up.

• dark enough that those on the path lost their way and wandered off and were lost
• but some continued on the path and caught hold of the end of the rod

11. After some fruit-eaters act ashamed, Lehi looks around and spots a great and spacious building.

• it stands as if in the air, high above the earth
• filled with all variety of people
• the people appear wealthy
• the people mock the fruit-eaters
• also called "strange building" v33

12. Those who were ashamed fell away into forbidden paths and were lost. (IMO, no different from "strange roads" in v32.)

13. Various folk do various things.  Some are "drowned in the depths of the fountain" - I still hold that "fountain" is synonymous with "river" and "head of the fountain" with "head of the river":

• v17 - Lehi looks toward "the head of the river" for L&L
• v19 - he sees a rod of iron along the bank of "the river"
• v20 - he sees the strait and narrow path by the rod of iron "and it also led by the head of the fountain, unto a large and spacious field" - what can "the fountain" be other than "the river" in v17?  The "also" and the fact that he's describing the path's course away from the tree (and the head of the river is away from the tree) leave no doubt in me that "river" and "fountain" are synonymous.

If you need a visual, I suppose I could draw something awful.  It would go like this:

Dark & Dreary Wilderness

Dude in white robe

Dark & Dreary Waste

Large & Spacious Field (all below are in the field)

Start of the strait and narrow path

Head of the river (off to one side and closer to the tree), river heads in the direction of the tree (but will pass along side rather than go to)

Rod of iron (between path and river, closer to the tree or starts at the head of the river, not sure)

Tree (terminus of rod and path)

River flows on past the tree

Across the river (anywhere along its length but within sight of the tree) is the great & spacious building

All over the place are strange and forbidden paths/roads

The end.  I have not made a great effort to edit this. Hopefully it makes sense.

[zil2]

I'm not going to parse through Nephi's experience.  I'm just going to make notes on what information his experience adds to the points already made in Lehi's:

The tree

• 11:4-6+ immediately suggest that the tree is representative of Jesus Christ.
• adds that its beauty exceeds all other beauty
• it is "precious above all"
• v22 - "it is the love of God"
• 15:36 - "greatest of all the gifts of God"

Rod of Iron

• v25: Word of God "which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life" (the "or" says Nephi considers these to be the same thing - two ways of saying: "which waters are a representation of the love of God" (just as the tree is in v22))

Great and spacious building

• v35: "the world and the wisdom thereof", those who gather to fight against the apostles
• v36: "the pride of the world"; it will fall to destruction
• 12:18 - "vain imaginations and the pride of the children of men"
• 12:18 - this building is separated from something unnamed (we'll assume the righteous and the tree).  IMO, the "great and terrible gulf" is carved out by the river.

• Quote

  And a great and a terrible gulf divideth them; yea, even the word of the justice of the Eternal God, and the Messiah who is the Lamb of God, of whom the Holy Ghost beareth record, from the beginning of the world until this time, and from this time henceforth and forever.

   

(on to chapter 12)

Mist of darkness

• v4: probably not the same as in Lehi's vision, as this refers to the darkness that covers the Americas at Christ's death.
• v17: those from Lehi's vision are temptations of the devil (mention is also made here that could equate to the forbidden paths and strange roads)

The river

• v16: To me, this verse is clearly saying that the "fountain of filthy water" is "even the river of which [Lehi] spake".
• The depths of this river are hell
• See above under "Great and spacious building"; I personally don't think the river started out clean (e.g. at its head) and got filthy, I think it was always meant to represent the depths of hell, the gulf between the wicked and the righteous. Obviously, this is figurative and there's talk of the justice of God and such.  There are a lot of things that this river / gulf could symbolize.  (NOTE: I think this is gulf as in a wide separation, not like "the gulf of Mexico".)
• 15:27 - the water "was filthiness" and Lehi didn't notice it.
• 15:28 - the river is "an awful gulf, which separated the wicked from the tree of life"
• 15:29 - the river represents hell
• 15:30 - Lehi saw that the justice of God divided the wicked from the righteous

(on to chapter 13)

Abominable Church

• Descriptors sound like that Great and spacious building.

Bible, then BofM and restoration

(on to chapter 14; nothing new to Lehi's vision; end of Nephi's time with the angel)

(on to chapter 15 - Nephi explains his experience to the others; the vision in question isn't addressed until v21)

Nothing to add other than the notes I inserted above.  It is still clear to me that we simply have multiple terms used to describe the river which Lehi saw: river, fountain, gulf, depths of hell...

The end.

Edited September 26, 2024 by zil2

[Carborendum]

5 hours ago, mikbone said:

I used this on my iphone

I can't.  My phone is limited.  I'm cheap that way.

[Carborendum]

4 hours ago, zil2 said:

the rod of iron and the strait and narrow path come along its bank

ASIDE (In the context of the overall thread, not necessarily about this particular topic about the Tree of Life vision): Older versions of the BoM used the spelling straight.

While many a critic of the Church have used this as "proof" that the BoM is a fraud, they betray their ignorance.  Such is the pattern of anti-Mormons.  They learn just enough to find out something that doesn't make sense.  Then they are sated.  But a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Back in the 1800s straight was considered an acceptable alternate spelling of strait.  The Church had to spend an awful lot of time thinking about whether it meant straight or strait (since straight was used for both definitions back then).  Was it or was it not the same as the strait gate and narrow way?  I'm supposing that in the end, it didn't matter.  They changed it at least as far back as the copy I bought back in 2018.

4 hours ago, zil2 said:

• The head of the river would be a spring, oasis, pond or something - water coming up from the ground and flowing from this spot.

agreed.

4 hours ago, zil2 said:

8. He sees a rod of iron.  It extends along the bank of the river.  It leads to the tree.  Thus, the river flows toward the tree - because the rod of iron that leads to the tree is along its bank.  (The only alternative is that the river flows in two (or more) directions from its head (which might make two (or more) rivers, technically), but I don't know if that's a normal occurrence, and only one river is mentioned.)

Here's where I disagree.  Here's the verse again.

Quote

And I also beheld a strait and narrow path, which came along by the rod of iron, even to the tree by which I stood; and it also led by the head of the fountain, unto a large and spacious field, as if it had been a world.

 -- 1 Ne 8:20

The path and the rod led to the tree... and ... also led by the head of the fountain.

Thus the head of the fountain (the source of the river) was near the tree.  This cannot mean that the river "flows toward the tree".  It has to flow "away from the tree."

4 hours ago, zil2 said:

9. Then he spots a strait and narrow path

• in the other direction, it "led by" the head of the fountain (aka the head of the river) unto a large and spacious field (see #4).  This suggests that the path terminates at the tree and if you walk the other direction, you go past the head of the river to "a large and spacious field, as if it had been a world" - presumably the other end of the path since

I'm not focused on the large and spacious field.  I believe that since it is "on the other side", it can only be properly interpreted after we interpret the other items before it.

4 hours ago, zil2 said:

12. Those who were ashamed fell away into forbidden paths and were lost. (IMO, no different from "strange roads" in v32.)

They certainly are related.  Strange in the Old Testament is /נֵכָר/ (nēḵār) which means "foreign." And it was closely associated with the idolatrous gods of foreign nations and traditions.

4 hours ago, zil2 said:

Some are "drowned in the depths of the fountain" - I still hold that "fountain" is synonymous with "river" and "head of the fountain" with "head of the river"

I have no problem with this interpretation.  I just found it to be very odd wording.  And I still hold that the current rendering in English is linguistic gobbeldygoop.  So, I'm just wondering if there's some linguistic fault here that we're not considering.  I am led to believe that the word fountain doesn't mean what it meant back in the 1800s.  I think it must have been the closest word in our language to refer to something else... some other quality of the water that isn't clearly spelled out here.  But it makes all the sense in the world when rendered in Hebrew or Egyptian.

Of what I do know of human nature and the nature of conversion, I believe it may refer to the turbulence that normally occurs when converts are coming close to making a commitment to be baptized.

*****************************

Over all, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about there being two rivers.  I only see one river in the words as written.  And I think there is some additional meaning in that river that flows from the Tree of Life, is turbulent in the beginning, and if allowed to flow too far from the Tree, it can become dangerous and force us to the depths of hell.

[zil2]

55 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Here's where I disagree.  Here's the verse again.

Quote

And I also beheld a strait and narrow path, which came along by the rod of iron, even to the tree by which I stood; and it also led by the head of the fountain, unto a large and spacious field, as if it had been a world.

 -- 1 Ne 8:20

The path and the rod led to the tree... and ... also led by the head of the fountain.

Thus the head of the fountain (the source of the river) was near the tree.  This cannot mean that the river "flows toward the tree".  It has to flow "away from the tree."

Please re-read verse 19.

Quote

19 And I beheld a rod of iron, and it extended along the bank of the river, and led to the tree by which I stood.

How does it extend along the bank of the river, and lead to the tree, unless the river also heads toward the tree?

[mikbone]

It’s clearly unclear.

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Over all, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about there being two rivers.  I only see one river in the words as written. 

I never said I thought there were two rivers.  I think there was exactly one river.  I acknowledged that if someone wanted to, they could believe that the head of the river let water split into multiple rivers, or let the river flow away from the head in two directions, but I personally don't believe that.

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

And I think there is some additional meaning in that river that flows from the Tree of Life, is turbulent in the beginning, and if allowed to flow too far from the Tree, it can become dangerous and force us to the depths of hell.

I see absolutely none of this in the descriptive text.  So the head of the river is shouting distance from the tree - that doesn't mean it "flows from the tree of life".  This vision does not have to match up with other scriptural visions which depict that.  There's no reason it can't stand on its own and serve its own purposes.

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I am led to believe that the word fountain doesn't mean what it meant back in the 1800s.

https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Fount

Quote

FOUNT',

FOUNT'AIN, noun [Latin fons.]

1. A spring, or source of water; properly, a spring or issuing of water from the earth. This word accords in sense with well, in our mother tongue; but we now distinguish the, applying fountain to a natural spring of water, and well to an artificial pit of water, issuing from the interior of the earth.

2. A small basin of springing water.

3. A jet; a spouting of water; an artificial spring.

4. The head or source of a river.

5. Original; first principle or cause; the source of any thing.

Almighty God, the fountain of all goodness.

??

 

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I think it must have been the closest word in our language to refer to something else... some other quality of the water that isn't clearly spelled out here.  But it makes all the sense in the world when rendered in Hebrew or Egyptian.

I fail to see the problem.  Are you thinking that because the word "fountain" was used, that it must have been good water?  It couldn't possibly have been a fountain of filthy water?  Or....  I fail to understand why a filthy river isn't a good enough understanding of what the vision portrayed.

 

Anyway, as I said before, I don't really see an issue with you choosing to present an alternate interpretation of the dream in order to teach some true doctrine.  Knock yourself out.

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

Please re-read verse 19.

How does it extend along the bank of the river, and lead to the tree, unless the river also heads toward the tree?

Pay attention to the commas.

Quote

19 And I beheld a rod of iron, and it extended along the bank of the river, and led to the tree by which I stood.

I realize they didn't use commas.  But the repeated use of "and" was used in ancient Hebrew as a sort of "separator" similar to our use of commas today.

-----------------------------

About "Fountain":  I had previously given an incomplete explanation.  My apologies.  I'm not saying that fountain means something different today than in the 1800s.

As a THEORY: I'm saying that our English word Fountain whether it is 1800s or today, is not an adequate translation from the original language.  But it's the closest word that we have in our language to describe whatever Nephi is trying to describe.  And I really wish I knew what he was intending there.

My basis for that theory is that (in English) the phrase "head of the fountain" doesn't make any sense.  So, unless it means something different in the original, I'm left with thinking that Nephi and/or Joseph through the Urim and Thummim made a huge linguistic mistake.  I don't buy that.

I also base that on other translations that I've seen where people purposefully translate something (slightly, but still obviously) incorrectly, hoping that the readers will look at the original language to take a closer look at what was said originally. 

You're educated in enough languages to recognize that sometimes (very rarely) some phrases or even some words simply don't translate efficiently. Then there are figures of speech or common uses that don't translate well without an explanatory paragraph.  So, we'd need to depend on translators to explain the subtleties of the linguistic anomalies.  But in this case, I'm not sure we can.  We might hope that some reference (like Jer 9:1) held some key to extracting a meaning out of this.

--------------------

The "turbulence" I referred to was about how many were "drowned" in the fountain.  I'm not sure if we're getting the right picture here.

--------------------

As far as the "two rivers", my apologies.  I thought that was what you were getting at.  I misread it.

Edited September 27, 2024 by Carborendum

[zil2]

9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Pay attention to the commas.

Quote

19 And I beheld a rod of iron, and it extended along the bank of the river, and led to the tree by which I stood.

I realize they didn't use commas.  But the repeated use of "and" was used in ancient Hebrew as a sort of "separator" similar to our use of commas today.

I see the commas and the ands and don't see why you think anything other than:

• there's a rod of iron that led to the tree
• the rod of iron extended along the bank of the river

How can it do both of these unless the river goes toward the tree?  I suppose you think it means that the river flows from the tree (how it does that when the head is not the tree, but shouting distance from the tree, I don't know).  The picture in my head has the rod of iron going to the tree.  On one side is the path, which also goes to the tree, but obviously both would stop just short of the tree.  Parallel to both, but on the other side of the rod of iron is the river.  It doesn't go to the tree, but flows past it.  If it goes to the tree, what? Does is its whole length a shouting distance, and it goes from the head to the tree?  Or from the head to the tree and under/around it?  I think it flows past the tree.  This is what the text describes.  I don't believe it describes the river flowing away from the tree.

[zil2]

17 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

My basis for that theory is that (in English) the phrase "head of the fountain" doesn't make any sense.

It makes perfect sense to me. I have no trouble with the idea that "fountain" is poetic (for lack of a better word) for "river".

18 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The "turbulence" I referred to was about how many were "drowned" in the fountain.  I'm not sure if we're getting the right picture here.

I think they drowned in the river.  In the gulf that separates the tree from the great and spacious building - aka, the river canyon.

[mikbone]

15 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Pay attention to the commas.

The BoM was translated with relatively very few punctuation marks...