Two questions about mercy

[askandanswer]

1. If one source of mercy is available to everyone, under a very narrowly defined set of conditions, and another source of mercy is available to everyone under a more flexible, less demanding set of conditions, which source of mercy do you think would be more useful and more used?

2. Is there a relationship between the quality of mercy and the conditions on which it is accessible?

[Traveler]

@askandanswer:

I think your questions are good but also misleading.  In mathematics (science) there are always initial conditions that with logic will define the output or answer.  Another way to look at this is if there are too many unknowns then the output or answer cannot be determined.

I will be interested in how other posters will respond concerning your questions but as your questions stand, as stated – I do not think we can logically surmise a conclusion.  Thus, we must be able to properly define all the preconditions.

With mercy we need to define G-d’s love, compassion, wisdom and the covenant of agency that He has given us.  I have pondered how to logically understand G-d and how he deals with mankind (individuals).  I will put forth the initial conditions as I think I understand them as follows:

First:  G-d will not do for mankind what we can do for ourselves.

Second: G-d will do for mankind what we cannot do for ourselves.

Three: G-d will not do for mankind anything that does not benefit mankind.

Four: G-d will do for mankind anything that will benefit mankind.

Five: G-d will only do for mankind that which is acceptable to mankind – this means that the individual must understand what will occur (G-d will do) what the outcome will be and that the individual must be in full acceptance of it all.

I believe that all five elements must have the same value and force in defining all the preconditions.  It is my understanding that all five elements were present in our pre-existence as each individual’s mortal existence was planned and mapped out.  This is where and how we can understand G-d’s mercy.  Regardless of what happens, we can know and trust that G-d will fulfill his promise that all five elements will be perfectly completed.  There will be no action of mercy, love, compassion or wisdom that can or will happen during our mortal probation that does not completely involve all five of the above elements.

If anyone has discovered another element or knows why any element I gave does not apply – I would appreciate the opportunity to discover that element with you.

Thank you all

 

The Traveler

[askandanswer]

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

@askandanswer:

If anyone has discovered another element or knows why any element I gave does not apply – I would appreciate the opportunity to discover that element with you.

Thank you all

 

The Traveler

I think another necessary condition to add to your list of five is that God does what He does with the informed consent and involvement of those on whose behalf He works. 

Edited November 2, 2024 by askandanswer

[JohnsonJones]

Something of interest that was noted once a while ago and told to me (I am not someone who is an expert at business, so forgive me if this is wrong) is that people do not value that which is free.  If you just add a little charge or make them pay for it, they will value it far more than something that is free.

Even if that free item is worth far more than the item they paid for, they will value the item they paid for more. 

Sometimes, the more something costs, the more someone will value it.  It does not matter what the real value is, the value is attached to the cost.

A prime example is air.  Almost everyone takes air for granted.  On the otherhand, take a 100 inch TV.  The individual will almost always prioritize that TV over the quality of their air, until that air is suddenly gone. 

Which is more important and more valuable to the individual?

I don't now if this would really apply to what you are looking at with mercy, but I can see a way it could be applicable.

If we are all saved, with very little effort except not doing something that sends us to Hell for the rest of eternity, than perhaps that will not be as treasured or valuable as something that we must put some effort into.

By having a greater reward affixed to something which we must invest personally into, that reward will be more valued to us and the ones who get the reward will value it far more than if they had been given it for free (or practically for free).

Again, I'm not sure if this applies to what you are suggesting or not, but it came to me as a thought when reading through your post, so...maybe?

[askandanswer]

3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Something of interest that was noted once a while ago and told to me (I am not someone who is an expert at business, so forgive me if this is wrong) is that people do not value that which is free.  If you just add a little charge or make them pay for it, they will value it far more than something that is free.

Even if that free item is worth far more than the item they paid for, they will value the item they paid for more. 

Sometimes, the more something costs, the more someone will value it.  It does not matter what the real value is, the value is attached to the cost.

A prime example is air.  Almost everyone takes air for granted.  On the otherhand, take a 100 inch TV.  The individual will almost always prioritize that TV over the quality of their air, until that air is suddenly gone. 

Which is more important and more valuable to the individual?

I don't now if this would really apply to what you are looking at with mercy, but I can see a way it could be applicable.

If we are all saved, with very little effort except not doing something that sends us to Hell for the rest of eternity, than perhaps that will not be as treasured or valuable as something that we must put some effort into.

By having a greater reward affixed to something which we must invest personally into, that reward will be more valued to us and the ones who get the reward will value it far more than if they had been given it for free (or practically for free).

Again, I'm not sure if this applies to what you are suggesting or not, but it came to me as a thought when reading through your post, so...maybe?

I think I understand what you are saying, but I don't think I agree with it. I think it is more important to have more people saved than to have those who are saved place a higher value on the mechanism that enabled them to be saved. 

[CV75]

On 11/2/2024 at 6:10 AM, askandanswer said:

1. If one source of mercy is available to everyone, under a very narrowly defined set of conditions, and another source of mercy is available to everyone under a more flexible, less demanding set of conditions, which source of mercy do you think would be more useful and more used?

2. Is there a relationship between the quality of mercy and the conditions on which it is accessible?

Relationships are the the conveyors of all interpersonal gestures, and covenant relationships are always more meaningful that those that are not. Covenants entail conditions. So, covenant mercy is more useful than casual mercy, just as exaltation is more meaningful than immortality. 

[laronius]

Non LDS Christians believe in a mercy with fewer conditions than we do. They also rightfully believe that said mercy will take them to a heaven we call the Terrestrial Kingdom. The more conditional mercy we seek, when properly obtained, will take us to a far greater degree of glory, like the sun to moon in comparison. In both instances people receive the mercy and glory they were willing to receive and both are exceedingly useful, considering our state if no mercy were granted, with or without conditions. Thankfully mercy is not a total yes or no option but is available by degrees. But make no mistake, mercy with no or fewer conditions is still partial damnation. Even in the resurrection where there are no mandatory conditions, the quality of the body we receive is still conditional 

[CV75]

5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I think I understand what you are saying, but I don't think I agree with it. I think it is more important to have more people saved than to have those who are saved place a higher value on the mechanism that enabled them to be saved. 

Mercy in the form of resurrection is for more people than not (two of three parts of God's spirit children), and it is then for all mortal people. The value we place on Christ (the mechanism for mercy and resurrection) is important because it determines the kingdom of gory we live in, which is the reconciliation or cointegration of justice and mercy.

[askandanswer]

I don't think I would classify the resurrection as a form of mercy. I think it has more to do with kindness or love or compassion. To me, mercy is usually associated with the avoidance/removal/forgiveness/protection from, a penalty/punishment that becomes due following a breach of a law. Death is quite often not a result of a penalty resulting from breaching a law so I don't think I would classify resurrection of a physical body as a form of mercy. There are other things that I think it could be more correctly classified as. 

[CV75]

19 hours ago, askandanswer said:

I don't think I would classify the resurrection as a form of mercy. I think it has more to do with kindness or love or compassion. To me, mercy is usually associated with the avoidance/removal/forgiveness/protection from, a penalty/punishment that becomes due following a breach of a law. Death is quite often not a result of a penalty resulting from breaching a law so I don't think I would classify resurrection of a physical body as a form of mercy. There are other things that I think it could be more correctly classified as. 

That is one perspective, but resurrection is at the same time an expression of mercy: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2014/04/the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng "No injustice in mortality is permanent, even death, for He restores life again. No injury, disability, betrayal, or abuse goes uncompensated in the end because of His ultimate justice and mercy." The reconciliation of justice and mercy are accomplished through His atoning sacrifice.

We might consider death to be just in terms of the natural penalty for the sins of the accountable, or the temporary, probationary nature  of mortality for both the accountable and unaccountable. We might consider death to be unjust when imposed at the hands of another, whether the perpetrator or victim are accountable or not, or resulting from life circumstances. In either case, the talk above suggests our resurrection requires the offsetting power of mercy. Not all resurrected people are forgiven of all their sins, yet mercy is shown toward them with the gift of resurrection.

Compassion: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/compassion?lang=eng "In the scriptures, compassion means literally “to suffer with.” It also means to show sympathy, pity, and mercy for another."

Mercy: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/merciful-mercy?lang=eng "The spirit of compassion, tenderness, and forgiveness. Mercy is one of the attributes of God. Jesus Christ offers mercy to us through His atoning sacrifice."