How Much to "Give" (Mosiah 4)

[Carborendum]

Quote

22 And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.

23 I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world.

24 And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give.

  -- Mosiah 4:22-24

I have just recently been made aware of how much a certain someone is in need.  While I have given aid to others on a short-term basis, this is the first to whom I've been asked to provide some long term assistance.  My sister.

Background:

She has a chronic condition that prevents her from having a steady job.  She's old enough for social security.  But her health required her to take it early.  So, she doesn't receive the full amount.  And the area of the country has very high housing costs (and I've recently found out, grocery prices as well).

Her three sons are pooling their money to help her out.  But one of them (the wealthy one) is already giving assistance to his in-laws who are older than his mom.  The other two are barely scraping by. But they're willing to put up a little bit.  They said that they do have enough for everyone to barely get by.  But if "something" comes up...

**************

She has asked all her siblings for any additional financial aid.  Apparently two other siblings are also on hard times.  They're getting by, but they can't really help financially.  My oldest brother is already helping his partner with finances, so he's tapped out.  My other sister is the really rich one.  She said, "That is your sons' responsibility."

That leaves me.  I'm in the middle.  I'm not doing as well as my two wealthy siblings.  But I'm certainly not struggling like my other siblings.

I'm already helping out with taking care of a niece, and the other young lady I've written about.  So, that's expensive.  But if I were to take a look at the Mosiah scripture above, I'd have to say that regarding my sister's care "I have, therefore, I should give."

I've spoken with my wife about this, and she basically said all the same things I was thinking of.  Should we?  How much?  How long?  What are her sons doing?  How is their future?

Any other advice or considerations?

[Manners Matter]

In 1854 the First Presidency taught, “True charity to a poor family or person consists in placing them in a situation in which they can support themselves”

Sounds to me like permanent solutions need to be put into effect. Family members that are barely making it need to combine households and in an area that's cheaper to live. All need to understand the difference between needs and wants and act accordingly. She needs to be told of all the resources to clear up the health issues so she can be better employed and/or shown ways to earn money on her own. The ones who can't help financially can be the ones to help run an etsy shop, tend the vegetable garden, etc. 

It's good of you to want to give and that may still be necessary but things need to be addressed with the long game in mind. Oh - if you do give, it would be best if she were able to do something in return so you're essentially paying her for her help. You might need to get creative but it would help her keep her dignity and feel valued.

Edited March 3 by Manners Matter

[Ironhold]

25 minutes ago, Manners Matter said:

In 1854 the First Presidency taught, “True charity to a poor family or person consists in placing them in a situation in which they can support themselves”

Sounds to me like permanent solutions need to be put into effect. Family members that are barely making it need to combine households and in an area that's cheaper to live. All need to understand the difference between needs and wants and act accordingly. She needs to be told of all the resources to clear up the health issues so she can be better employed and/or shown ways to earn money on her own. The ones who can't help financially can be the ones to help run an etsy shop, etc. 

It's good of you to want to give and that may still be necessary but things need to be addressed with the long game in mind. Oh - if you do give, it would be best if she were able to do something in return so you're essentially paying her for her help. You might need to get creative but it would help her keep her dignity and feel valued.

Carb's from Houston, which is not exactly a very nice place to live due to decades of local government mismanagement. I'm up in Copperas Cove, which is almost four hours away by car, and we're a bit leery of Houston. 

The families would have to relocate outside of the entire metroplex to find an area where the cost of living is far more reasonable, but that in and of itself entails a *lot* of potential problems in the sense of needing to find new employment, needing to find new housing that's able to support someone with disabilities or limitations (there's a *massive* housing shortage in my part of the state due to everyone flooding in and various out-of-state landlords trying to profit), actually relocating, and getting all relevant paperwork - including the social security - adjusted accordingly. It's not a cheap or easy solution. 

Hence the family needing the help and support of the ward as much as people are able to. 

[Ironhold]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Any other advice or considerations?

What sort of help are they specifically asking for? That's the first consideration. 

[Manners Matter]

4 minutes ago, Ironhold said:

Carb's from Houston, which is not exactly a very nice place to live due to decades of local government mismanagement. I'm up in Copperas Cove, which is almost four hours away by car, and we're a bit leery of Houston. 

The families would have to relocate outside of the entire metroplex to find an area where the cost of living is far more reasonable, but that in and of itself entails a *lot* of potential problems in the sense of needing to find new employment, needing to find new housing that's able to support someone with disabilities or limitations (there's a *massive* housing shortage in my part of the state due to everyone flooding in and various out-of-state landlords trying to profit), actually relocating, and getting all relevant paperwork - including the social security - adjusted accordingly. It's not a cheap or easy solution. 

Hence the family needing the help and support of the ward as much as people are able to. 

I didn't see where it mentioned she/the family members live in Houston. Furthermore, yes, I'm aware there are costs, etc to move but it's best that aid goes to permanent solutions and not band-aids. Also, we don't know what line of work they're in so that may be easier than you seem to assume. As far as the ward helping, that's supposed to be temporary as well. Hence, needing to put solutions in place for the long game.

[NeuroTypical]

I've been finance clerk for many Bishops, been trained, and seen how they operate.  Fast Offerings are meant to be short-term only, and the member receiving the funds can expect to go over budgets and work towards a plan of self-sufficiency.

Family is different.  Bishops counsel folks to seek help from family first before using fast offerings. 

I guess it's largely up to you - do you want to support your sister in a lifestyle that she is unable to provide for herself?  Do you want to work with her to have her reach a point where you don't provide support?   I'm a fan of the notion that whoever pays has a say.  So it's up to you.

IMO, anyone forking over a monthly check (or other kind of recurring assistance), has a say in things.   It's not unreasonable to expect someone to sell a house and move into an apartment, or give up a car.  Not unreasonable to work through a budget with that person.   

Edited March 3 by NeuroTypical

[Carborendum]

Thank you for all your responses.  It appears that I need to clarify a few points.

• They are asking me for additional financial assistance.
• I live in the Houston area, not Houston-proper.  I work in Houston and have about an hour commute each way (pretty much all the places I've worked have been anywhere from 30 min to 1h+ from my house.  So far, our locality is in pretty good shape (low crime, the only heavy traffic is rush hour) except for all the construction going on (probably another year before it all clears out).
• My sister currently resides in Oregon (near Son#1) and is about to move to CA (near Son#3).  Son#2 lives in Washington (AFAIK).
• Housing:
  • She currently resides in her eldest son's 1 B condo while his family is allowed to stay at a friend's house.  That friend is now in need of that extra space.  So, Son#1 has to move back to his 1B condo for himself, his wife, and their son.  No more room for her.
  • Son #3 has a small apartment for him, his wife, and soon to be born child.
    • They want to get grandmom into a nearby retirement community where the rent is cheaper than elsewhere (but it is still more than my mortgage payment).
    • He will be the biggest contributor to her upkeep.  In return, will be a nanny for the new grandchild, so the new mom can work.
• Her medical condition is chronic. There is no cure.  There isn't really a practical, long term treatment for it either.  Her symptoms flare up every few weeks for a few days.  In between, she is perfectly capable and healthy.  The flare ups are sufficient that she can't hold down a job on any long-term basis.
  • Son #3 understands this, and the mom's job is such that she may be able to partially work around grandmom's illness.
• I believe there may be a future change.  They are hoping that Son#3's wages rising will allow them to buy a 3B home.  Then they can forget about the retirement community.

After some thought, I'm thinking that, instead of being part of the regular upkeep, I should be the "emergency backup" if something goes wrong.

Edited March 4 by Carborendum
mixed up Son2 with Son3. It's been a while

[NeuroTypical]

I guess one final thought: 

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

She has a chronic condition that prevents her from having a steady job. 

Tough, brutal question:  Can she work, or does she just not want to work?  You say she can't have a steady job.  So, she can still have a job?  I know someone juggling multiple chronic conditions who is rocking at InstaCart.  They works when they can, and doesn't sweat it when they can't.  It hurts.  It is not fun.   Sometimes quite hard to get out the door in the morning.  But they do it.

Endless, endless, countless, neverending examples of folks who don't understand the difference between "can't" and "don't want to".    So many people out there willing to get relatives/govt/church/neighbors helping out when they could do more for themselves.   I'm not saying your sister is like this, but since there's a bottomless well of folks like this, I thought I'd ask the question.  

You can work a certain amount and keep Social Security benefits.

AI Google assist says: "If you are under full retirement age in 2025, you can earn up to $23,400 without a reduction in your Social Security benefits. If you earn more than that, your benefits will be reduced by $1 for every $2 you earn above the limit. Starting from the month you reach full retirement age, there is no limit on how much you can earn while receiving benefits."

Edited March 3 by NeuroTypical

[Carborendum]

38 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I guess one final thought: 

Tough, brutal question:  Can she work, or does she just not want to work?  You say she can't have a steady job.  So, she can still have a job?  I know someone juggling multiple chronic conditions who is rocking at InstaCart.  They works when they can, and doesn't sweat it when they can't.  It hurts.  It is not fun.   Sometimes quite hard to get out the door in the morning.  But they do it.

Endless, endless, countless, neverending examples of folks who don't understand the difference between "can't" and "don't want to".    So many people out there willing to get relatives/govt/church/neighbors helping out when they could do more for themselves.   I'm not saying your sister is like this, but since there's a bottomless well of folks like this, I thought I'd ask the question.  

You can work a certain amount and keep Social Security benefits.

AI Google assist says: "If you are under full retirement age in 2025, you can earn up to $23,400 without a reduction in your Social Security benefits. If you earn more than that, your benefits will be reduced by $1 for every $2 you earn above the limit. Starting from the month you reach full retirement age, there is no limit on how much you can earn while receiving benefits."

When she's well, she can work and do a good job.  But the frequent bouts of illness are causing the inability to have a "steady" job.  She does not own a car.  So, delivery is off the table.

When we were young, she was never the type that would shirk responsibility.  Even 10 years ago, I'd say that it would be unlike her to just "not want to work."  But she had a recent event that seems to have broken her spirit.  I don't know if she was on suicide-watch.  But she was REALLY not doing well.  And my nephews think that taking care of a grandchild may be what she needs to feel like her old self.

Even if that succeeds, she still has her illness that simply can't be ignored.

The final thing is that she never really let on how bad off she was financially until it was WAY too late.  She ended up maxing out credit cards to pay for her all her bills.  So, she's basically got a death mark on her credit report.  If any employer looks at that, she's done.  And this will last for 7 years.

Edited March 3 by Carborendum

[Manners Matter]

In case caring for the grandchild doesn't help her feel like her self again, there are people with knowledge, skills and abilities that could help. There are facebook groups that she can join and ask questions anonymously and get answers/suggestions that can lead to even more insight. There's also a lot of free info online she can access. There are people who *had* deep depression and/or chronic illness who no longer do. Healing is possible - emotional, mental, physical and spiritual. If it wasn't, why would we be given the gifts of the spirit which includes the gift to heal and the faith to be healed, neither of which are gender specific.

Edited March 4 by Manners Matter

[NeuroTypical]

10 hours ago, Manners Matter said:

There are people who *had* deep depression and/or chronic illness who no longer do. Healing is possible - emotional, mental, physical and spiritual. If it wasn't, why would we be given the gifts of the spirit which includes the gift to heal and the faith to be healed

It is true that a portion of people suffering from depression or chronic illness find them of a temporary duration.   It is also true that another portion are burdened for a lifetime.  The notion that the gift of healing is available to all people for all depression or chronic illness is not a correct notion.  Some burdens are able to be lightened in this life, some are not.  Gifts of the spirit are individual and not universal.  Many have the faith to be healed because such a miraculous gift was given them, and many do not because other gifts have been given them.  The gift of healing and priesthood power are real things, but not universally applicable to all such burdens. 

Yes, people can stay stuck in their crap through inaction.  Yes, people can benefit by availing themselves of faith and spiritual gifts.  

Yes, this mortal probation is one of burdens and enduring to the end.  Yes our burdens, temporary or permanent, have a big impact on how we grow and progress, whether we rid ourselves of them or not.

No, "healing is possible" is not a universally true principle applying to every mortal on this side of the veil.  Sometimes the burden is lifelong, as part of an individual's earthly life. 

In short, I got my fingers crossed for Carb's sister.  Here's hoping she can conquer her chronic condition or find ways to succeed/grow/improve despite it.  But I'm not gonna judge her if her life doesn't reach the milestones I might want to be available to her, but aren't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 4 by NeuroTypical

[Carborendum]

17 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

In short, I got my fingers crossed for Carb's sister.  Here's hoping she can conquer her chronic condition or find ways to succeed/grow/improve despite it.  But I'm not gonna judge her if her life doesn't reach the milestones I might want to be available to her, but aren't.

I appreciate that.  No, she's not going to get over it.  Just from a medical perspective, I know that there are some chronic conditions that are treatable/curable for many.  This is not one of them.

As far as miracles, she has gone completely inactive and is not affilliated in any way with the Church.  I don't think anyone could even give her a blessing.  I'd like to make it a condition of my help that she start attending church.  But that doesn't feel right.  I'm basically forcing her back int activity.  She's not anti.  She just doesn't see the point anymore.

Could she experience a miracle some other way?  Possibly.  But she simply has no faith anymore.

[Manners Matter]

41 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

It is true that a portion of people suffering from depression or chronic illness find them of a temporary duration.   It is also true that another portion are burdened for a lifetime.  The notion that the gift of healing is available to all people for all depression or chronic illness is not a correct notion.  Some burdens are able to be lightened in this life, some are not.  Gifts of the spirit are individual and not universal.  Many have the faith to be healed because such a miraculous gift was given them, and many do not because other gifts have been given them.  The gift of healing and priesthood power are real things, but not universally applicable to all such burdens. 

Yes, people can stay stuck in their crap through inaction.  Yes, people can benefit by availing themselves of faith and spiritual gifts.  

Yes, this mortal probation is one of burdens and enduring to the end.  Yes our burdens, temporary or permanent, have a big impact on how we grow and progress, whether we rid ourselves of them or not.

No, "healing is possible" is not a universally true principle applying to every mortal on this side of the veil.  Sometimes the burden is lifelong, as part of an individual's earthly life. 

In short, I got my fingers crossed for Carb's sister.  Here's hoping she can conquer her chronic condition or find ways to succeed/grow/improve despite it.  But I'm not gonna judge her if her life doesn't reach the milestones I might want to be available to her, but aren't.

Some good points here. I should've included "according to G-d's will". However, most people aren't aware of how much can be done and is possible outside of the big pharma trap.

[NeuroTypical]

9 minutes ago, Manners Matter said:

most people aren't aware of how much can be done and is possible outside of the big pharma trap.

I'm a firm believer that plenty of folks seek a pill or quick fix instead of expending effort, and a zealous profit-driven pharmaceutical industry is far from perfect or wholesome.  That said, some folks seem overly resistant to how much good can be done through modern medicines.  Folks referring to the pharmaceutical industry as "the big pharma trap" seem to be the mirror image of folks who believe all of life's ills can and should be solved by pills and pills alone.  The real world is a tad more multifaceted and complex than either extreme.

20 years later, I still appreciate Elder Morrison's 2005 Ensign article Myths about Mental Illness.  Twin masters degrees in biochemistry and pharmacology and a PhD from Cornell, internationally known scientist, college-age convert turned emeritus member of both quorums of the seventy, and parent of a child who struggled with mental illness:  His word is pretty dang unimpeachable on the subject.  Here is his list of myths he spoke out against, with his added comments on #7:

1. All mental illness is caused by sin. 
2. Someone is to blame for mental illness. 
3. All that people with mental illness need is a priesthood blessing. 
4. Mentally ill persons just lack willpower. 
5. All mentally ill persons are dangerous and should be locked up. 
6. Mental illness doesn’t strike children and young people. 
7. Whatever the cause, mental illness is untreatable. As mentioned, during the past 40 years numerous medications have been developed by the multinational pharmaceutical industry. These products have proven of inestimable worth to millions. They are not perfect, nor do they work effectively in every instance—far from it, unfortunately. But we are getting closer to the day when physicians will have available effective drugs which are specific in correcting the biochemical lesions concerned, without the side effects which too often limit the effectiveness of medications today. I have no doubt that such developments, which we are already beginning to see, will result in striking advances in the treatment of mental illness over the next decade.

 

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

As mentioned, during the past 40 years numerous medications have been developed by the multinational pharmaceutical industry. These products have proven of inestimable worth to millions. They are not perfect, nor do they work effectively in every instance—far from it, unfortunately. But we are getting closer to the day when physicians will have available effective drugs which are specific in correcting the biochemical lesions concerned, without the side effects which too often limit the effectiveness of medications today. I have no doubt that such developments, which we are already beginning to see, will result in striking advances in the treatment of mental illness over the next decade.

I'm glad you posted this.  I am pleased that this statement could be made in a public forum.  And I'm extremely pleased that this was even from the Church website.

I know I may have come off as "anti-pharma" in the past.  But the truth is that I have always believed that vaccines and pharmaceutical intervention save lives and improve the health of many in the modern world.

The reason why I sound like I'm "anti-medicine" is that I believe most medical professionals go way too far the other way.  They tend to think they know more than they really do.  Often times, they think they know more than the industry in general actually know. And people in general tend to worship at the altar of medicine much too easily.

I wish that more doctors would be able to say with complete candidness, "There are some cases that simply don't respond to medication.  But we do our best to narrow things down to ensure the best guess we possibly can."

I also believe too many people trust medicine much more than simply changing our lifestyle choices (like sleep, diet, and exercise).

In my case, the first medication I received was a no-go from the first hour.  The doctor was happy to change the prescription.  But he didn't even acknowledge that there was something wrong with the first prescription.  He was just going through the motions.  The second prescription (a more popular brand) was like taking sugar pills.  It did nothing.

It turns out that I was completely misdiagnosed from the beginning.  My problems were caused by something completely different.  They merely presented similarly to other diagnoses.

That said, doctors are mortal beings.  They make mistakes. But they also have a lot of knowledge that may be useful (with proper safeguards) in healing.  It's a bit like having police.  There are many who simply don't receive the training they need.  But we absolutely need police in a civilized society.  And the fact is that we have to take the good with the bad. 

But you say one thing that tips the scales, then that means you're "only" on that side.  No, I merely acknowledge the failings while conceding the good that they do as well.

[Ironhold]

22 hours ago, Manners Matter said:

In case caring for the grandchild doesn't help her feel like her self again, there are people with knowledge, skills and abilities that could help. There are facebook groups that she can join and ask questions anonymously and get answers/suggestions that can lead to even more insight. There's also a lot of free info online she can access. There are people who *had* deep depression and/or chronic illness who no longer do. Healing is possible - emotional, mental, physical and spiritual. If it wasn't, why would we be given the gifts of the spirit which includes the gift to heal and the faith to be healed, neither of which are gender specific.

IRL, I'm high-functioning autistic. 

Basically, autism means that the brain, nervous system, and potentially other parts of the body are wired differently. 

On one hand, individuals like myself who are high-functioning can, with support and patience, find a niche we love and figure out a way to monetize it into a stable job in which we excel as opportunity presents itself. 

On the other hand, life can be a nightmare even under the best of circumstances due to the horrendous number of medical conditions that frequently go hand-in-hand with autism spectrum disorder - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditions_comorbid_to_autism - and it's very easy for society as a whole to turn their backs on us because we're not "normal". 

Enough people here already know my story, so I'll sum up by saying that you never fully heal after being through the kinds of things I've been through, even if you're fully neurotypical. 

The best you can do is make peace with your past, make what precious few amends you can make, work to keep people from becoming the monster you became to survive, and hope that Heaven regards whatever penance you make as sincere while the nagging voice in the back of your head reminds you that it's probably never good enough just like you were never good enough. 

[Carborendum]

So, we've finally settled on a course of action.  We've come up with a plan to reduce her debt.  She will probably not be able to get a new credit card for a few years.  But with her social security and the financial assistance from me and her sons, she should be able to get by.

Unfortunately, we can't afford my niece's tuition and other upkeep while also financially supporting my sister.  So, at the end of this school year, she'll be going back to her parents.

Meanwhile, my sister can't continue to be supported by others.  She'll need to do something eventually.  But hopefully, we can figure that out before I can't afford to support her anymore.

Edited March 17 by Carborendum

[NeuroTypical]

It's kind and generous of you to help extended family as you're able.  Good luck to the lot of you as y'all try to make the right decisions about such things.