Becoming Gods? Is this true?

[Snow]

Snow, one cannot prove a negative. Yes, it's an informed assertion on my part.

Do you know of one that does accept the LDS religion as Christian? Thus far even the Episcopal church doesn't. But it wouldn't surprise me if they started accepting just about anything and everything as they're headed for deep left field foul ball territory the way it is.

P.S. I'm sorry I don't meet your standards of what's considered substance.

Three points:

1. I knew you couldn't prove your false claim and that you wouldn't even bother trying.

2. News flash: It ain't a negative assertion. It was a positive assertion. It could be proven by posting an official statement of position from each Christian denomination.

3. I was not the one asserting - you were. You bear the burden of proof. I personally don't make factual assertions that are untrue and that I can't backup... it's an ethical matter.

[Malachi7]

Malachi: You're obviously not here to engage in dialogue here, but to preach. I suggest you stop.

Seraphim

When religious discussion takes place both sides preach.

Just like the LDS missionaries going door to door.

If you want it to be one-sided preaching, I see no reason to hang around.

Bye.

[Snow]

When religious discussion takes place both sides preach.

Just like the LDS missionaries going door to door.

If you want it to be one-sided preaching, I see no reason to hang around.

Bye.

Typical juvenile drive-by.

It's not the preaching that's the problem, it's the lack of honesty. Pity that those that claim to be Christian do hold themselves to a standard of Christian or ethical behavior.

[VisionOfLehi]

Well, sorry about the misinformation about the link...

I thought we were under our own volition and could decide whether or not to click upon such a link. My bad. I guess, Malachi, that you've got some mind control on me. Sorry.

I could understand if it had some obscene title, or if it led directly to a site that was hateful... but members of the Church have a habit of calling any material that doesn't agree with us "anti", which is a rather negative label when some people are just expressing their beliefs. Granted, a good deal of it is derogatory, but not all of it.

I'll just be on my way now.

[Snow]

Well, sorry about the misinformation about the link...

I thought we were under our own volition and could decide whether or not to click upon such a link. My bad. I guess, Malachi, that you've got some mind control on me. Sorry.

I could understand if it had some obscene title, or if it led directly to a site that was hateful... but members of the Church have a habit of calling any material that doesn't agree with us "anti", which is a rather negative label when some people are just expressing their beliefs. Granted, a good deal of it is derogatory, but not all of it.

I'll just be on my way now.

You are under your own volition. You can click any link you want but this site is not compelled to assist in the propagation of anti-Mormon bigotry. I didn't see the link so I can't comment on the appropriateness of the website but it is reasonable that an LDS forum exercise discretion about what constitutes appropriate posting

[VisionOfLehi]

Yeah, sounds more dictatorial than discretionary in this instance, but c'est la vie. I didn't want to read it anyway.

[a-train]

I still haven't been able, in the first place, to locate anywhere where the LDS scriptures or prophets have told us that we are NOT gods, but we CAN BECOME gods.

Anyone have anything on that?

Before we get into debating whether the notion is true or not, can we even find any indication that it is a doctrine of Mormonism?

-a-train

[skalenfehl]

I don't think such a scripture exists in any of the standard works. I tried looking and cross referencing, but couldn't find anything. I could still be wrong, though. Sorry, bud.

a-train I don't believe there is any scripture that says men can 'become gods', but there are several in the D&C that say men can 'become sons of God'. Only in Psalms and John do we read word for word that men are gods. Perhaps you read this in discourses of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, etc?

D&C 34:3

D&C 35:2

D&C 45:8

[VisionOfLehi]

Can anyone refresh my memory and tell me what verse tells us that men can 'become gods'? I can think of some that say men 'are gods', but I am unable to remember any verse that says men can 'become gods'.

I have heard much talk from the brethren about becoming like Heavenly Father, becoming like God, becoming as God or as gods, but what do we have that tells us we are not gods now but we have the potential to become gods?

-a-train

It's not Scripture. It comes from an old couplet

Question: "Don't Mormons believe that God was once a man?"

Hinckley: "I wouldn't say that. There was a little couplet coined, "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become." Now that's more of a couplet than anything else."

- Interviewing Gordon B. Hinckley, San Francisco Chronicle, April 13, 1997, p 3/Z1

[Malachi7]

Three points:

1. I knew you couldn't prove your false claim and that you wouldn't even bother trying.

2. News flash: It ain't a negative assertion. It was a positive assertion. It could be proven by posting an official statement of position from each Christian denomination.

3. I was not the one asserting - you were. You bear the burden of proof. I personally don't make factual assertions that are untrue and that I can't backup... it's an ethical matter.

Southern Baptist statement in pdf format. Click here for html.

Leadership University

Lutheran Church statement

Presbyterian Church (USA) statement

Roman Catholic Church statement

United Methodist Church statement

[VisionOfLehi]

1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

13 ¶ Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

[Guest Seraphim]

You are under your own volition. You can click any link you want but this site is not compelled to assist in the propagation of anti-Mormon bigotry. I didn't see the link so I can't comment on the appropriateness of the website but it is reasonable that an LDS forum exercise discretion about what constitutes appropriate posting

I'm familiar with the website. It contains links to temple content.

[Snow]

Southern Baptist statement in pdf format. Click here for html.

Leadership University

Lutheran Church statement

Presbyterian Church (USA) statement

Roman Catholic Church statement

United Methodist Church statement

Leadership University is neither a denomination, nor a university so it must be excluded from your list.

The link you say is a statement from the SBC is not.

The link you say is from the Lutheran (MS) Church tends to disprove your claim, not support it - which you would know if you had read it.

The Presbyterian link doesn't say what you claim it was to say.

The RCC link doesn't say what you claim it was to say.

The Methodist link doesn't say what you claim it was to say... regardless of these links, you only have 37,995 denominations to go.

Can you get anything right?

... now you only have 37,995 more to go. Go get em tiger.

[VisionOfLehi]

Then I'm doubly sure I wouldn't want to read it,

I almost read some of that once months before I was baptized. I was like "Well, I don't think any of this is true, but let's not risk ruining it in case it is." lol

[Snow]

If you want it to be one-sided preaching, I see no reason to hang around.

Bye.

When someone makes a point of announcing that they are leaving, you may rest assured that they aren't being honest. They always stick around to read the responses and usually can't stop themselves from posting.

[a-train]

It's not Scripture. It comes from an old couplet

Question: "Don't Mormons believe that God was once a man?"

Hinckley: "I wouldn't say that. There was a little couplet coined, "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become." Now that's more of a couplet than anything else."

- Interviewing Gordon B. Hinckley, San Francisco Chronicle, April 13, 1997, p 3/Z1

Yes, but the couplet doesn't say man can become A god, it says man can become AS God. There is a major difference.

The scriptures and the prophets teach that men ARE gods. Becoming like Christ, like the Father, is not a process of going from a non-god state to a state of being a god. We ARE gods and children of the most High.

Now what about God, was He once a man? Do we have a quote that says God was once a man, but is not any longer? If we do, I have yet to find it.

'God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!' -Joseph Smith (TPJS p 345)

'...the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.' -Paul (Rom 5:15)

'in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.' (Moses 6:57)

As far as I can tell, God is not a Being who rose from the state of being a man to the state of being a non-man. God is an exalted man. Jesus of Nazareth is an exalted man. The scriptures are full of this idea that Jesus is an exalted man. He lived as a man and died as a man.

The Mormon doctrine is not that God takes a member of a species and rises him to another. The Mormon doctrine, as far as I can tell, is that God and man are the same species.

-a-train

[prisonchaplain]

Do you believe the concept of Eternal Progression is a Christian belief?

No. But, when I first learned of the teaching, the idea of humans becoming gods at least fell in line. From our perspective of creation meaning an absolute coming into existence out of nothing, the idea of attaining equality with God's nature is an absurdity. At least understanding that in tandem with this instruction is the belief that we've always existed on some sentient level, helps me grasp the godhood teaching. I can respect a system of belief without agreeing with it.

[Snow]

>>>Originally Posted by Malachi7

Do you believe the concept of Eternal Progression is a Christian belief?

No. But, when I first learned of the teaching, the idea of humans becoming gods at least fell in line. From our perspective of creation meaning an absolute coming into existence out of nothing, the idea of attaining equality with God's nature is an absurdity. At least understanding that in tandem with this instruction is the belief that we've always existed on some sentient level, helps me grasp the godhood teaching. I can respect a system of belief without agreeing with it.

Ah, then your understanding is not yet complete. Eternal Progression is in fact a Christian belief:

Perhaps the most noteworthy writer on the subject of the eternal progression of the human person who has become a "god by grace" is the fourth-century bishop, Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335– c. 395). Nearly a century and a half before Gregory's birth, however, St. Irenaeus, in his treatise Against Heresies, had begun to speak on the topic: "And those to whom He says, 'Come, you blessed of my Father, receive the Kingdom prepared for you for eternity' (Matt. 25:34), will receive the Kingdom and progress in it for ever." [Hans Urs von Balthasar, ed., The Scandal of the Incarnation: Irenaeus Against the Heresies, trans. John Saward (San Francisco: Ignatius, 1990), 110.] In another passage St. Irenaeus, in referring to the "age to come," speaks of how God will be "always teaching and man always learning from God."[Grant, Irenaeus of Lyons, 118, 184.] Gregory of Nyssa remains, nevertheless, as the great teacher on the doctrine of eternal progression. [Gregory of Nyssa, The Life of Moses, trans. Abraham J. Malherbe and Everett Ferguson (New York: Paulist, 1978), 30–31, 111–20 passim, 133; Meredith, The Cappadocians, 77; Meyendorff, Byzantine Theology, 219, 225, 226; Meyendorff and Tobias, Salvation in Christ, 63.]

In his treatise The Life of Moses Gregory explains that human perfection consists in a person's eternal growth and progress in virtuous activity.

Made to desire and not to abandon the transcendent height by the things already attained, it makes its way upward without ceasing, ever through its prior accomplishments renewing its intensity for the flight. Activity directed towards virtue causes its capacity to grow through exertion; this kind of activity alone does not slaken its intensity by the effort but increases it . . . the place with [God] is so great that the one running in it is never able to cease from his progress.

In this teaching eternal progress is rooted in the infinite nature of God. A divinized person will never stop growing and learning and doing precisely because the source of divinization, the uncreated energies of God, is limitless and infinite. Divinized persons will never exhaust God's ability to empower them for virtuous activity. [Gregory of Nyssa, Life of Moses, 113, 117.] [Vajda, Jordan, OP; Partakers of the Divine Nature]

[WillowTheWhisp]

I would really like to thank Malachi7 for starting this topic because it has given me such an insight into the Great Apostacy which I never really had before. Thank you to all those who have brought up the links and references which show that LDS doctrine relates to the doctrines of early Christianity and where all other churches seem to have disregard for things which were once preached as truth.

This has made it crystal clear why we needed a restoration. Reformation only changed things which had already been changed but still remained far removed from the original.

I have just read the Lutheran link and see that the reason cited for LDS not being Christian is our concept of the Godhead and the Trinity. I know members of other denominations who actually believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings, but don't accept that their churches don't teach that. By the Lutheran definition then those sincere and devout Catholic, Baptist and Methodist friends of mine are not Christians.

[WANDERER]

Yes I understand the history of the early Christian church and such. I can see a parallel in wanting to be more Christ-like, spiritual progression but divine progression...no.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I'm not sure what you mean there. How we can become more Christ-like without being like Christ?

[Elgama]

Actually, I don't find your beliefs hard to understand. Others here have done a fine job explaining. It's that I disbelieve what you believe as Christian theology. It's too far removed from Christian theology to be genuine, imo.

I'm in your house as a guest to investigate. I think you'd agree that if we want to know what Mormons believe we should ask a Mormon. If disagreement with LDS conclusions must be considered "tearing down your faith" then what's a guy to do? *shrug*

I do indeed share my faith with others. I'm a missionary every day. I'm also an amateur apologist. I hope you won't be offended that based on what I've been informed of here causes me grave concern.

I was actually referring to the time Christian Websites spend our faith - to me it doesn't matter if its that far from Christianity as long as its what God has in mind for me

I came to know Jesus as my personal Savior by revelation. (You like it, don't you. :-)) I know the Bible is the Word of God and can be trusted because since having placed my faith in it the evidence only continues to support that decision of long ago. We know where Jerusalem is. Jericho too. 'Nuff said?

See thats how I know the Book of Mormon is true - through revelation from the same source, yes we know where Jerusalem and Jericho is because they have had continous occupation there are plenty of other places in historical records we know exist but can't find. I was involved in the excavation of at least 2, for all we know we do know where Zarahemla etc is we just know what to call it or it could be buried beneath a part of New York etc.

-Charley

[ztodd]

Don't worry about becoming a god. We're all pretty far away from that end I'd say. We have plenty of other things to focus on first.

[prisonchaplain]

>>>Originally Posted by Malachi7

Do you believe the concept of Eternal Progression is a Christian belief?

Ah, then your understanding is not yet complete. Eternal Progression is in fact a Christian belief:

Let me start by not bluffing, and just admit that I did not read the question carefully. I thought that Malachi7 was asking me if I agreed with eternal premortal existence, since that had been my topic. Nevertheless, I thought my response fit, so did not bother editing my answer.

If "eternal progression," means that we will become godly, godlike, glorified beyond our imagination, and that we shall rule and reign with Christ, then I can agree. We literally shall continue to progress eternally.

On the other hand, I believe that human creation was done ex nihilo, and that we shall remain forever essentially distinct and subordinate from the Father. Further, that Jesus is the only God the Son.

[a-train]

Don't worry about becoming a god. We're all pretty far away from that end I'd say. We have plenty of other things to focus on first.

I'm afraid we Mormons are the perpetuation of the confusion. We continue to pretend men can become gods when the scriptures nor the prophets have told us this. The scriptures say we ARE gods. We cannot become something we already are.

We must understand that most of the world believes that there is one species of god, another of man, another of angels, and another of devils. This is NOT the LDS view. Gods, angels, devils, and men are all the same species.

We need to stop perpetuating the false notion that men are a certain species that can be raised to a higher species, the species of god.

ztodd, don't take this as a rebuke, I know you mean no harm. But statements like 'when we become gods...' or 'if we become gods...' which are often used in Mormondom, need to be refrained from. They give a false impression.

What is at the core of confusion is that Mormons use the phrase 'becoming a god' to refer to the taking up of whatever great responsibilities are rested on those saved and exalted in the presence of the LORD. The scriptural term for this is 'exaltation'. 'Becoming a god' is not in the scriptures.

I hope that we will understand the semantics of this and avoid confusion.

-a-train