Alcohol

[kona0197]

So I guess one drink occasionally taken is still a bad thing but understood...

This time last year I would be smoking like a chimney. I gave that up last year in April.

Trials really take their toll. Yes they make me stronger but why do they take so long?

[sixpacktr]

I don't think a brother or sister who "imbibes" should be lectured or ostracised.

Be glad they are still sympathetic to Mormonism, and still believe. In the 7th volume of the Church History we have this entry:

As strong as he was, Joseph also imbibed on this occasion, to "revive" his spirits. The Word of Wisdom was given by Joseph in 1833:

As one who deals with drunks on a regular basis, I can see the wisdom of abstinence, and I think the Church move to make it more binding has been a good thing. But we need to be careful this does not engender a spirit of self-righteousness. A brother/sister who admits "imbibing" is honest. Many others may imbibe in secret yet present a facade of holiness. If eleven years after his revelation, Joseph still felt the need to "imbibe" to "revive his spirits", who are we to judge "lesser mortals"?

Who is lecturing or ostracising?

I agree, we do not need to feel self righteous at the weaknesses of others, particularly regarding the WoW. A friend of mine used to state that there are things more cankering to the soul than tobacco or alcohol. But the fact remains that it is now the 'law' as it were, and while we don't condemn, neither should we encourage or state 'that's okay, I'm sure the Lord understands.' The standards are set, and it is up to us to meet the standards, not lower them to be more inclusive.

[sixpacktr]

So I guess one drink occasionally taken is still a bad thing but understood...

This time last year I would be smoking like a chimney. I gave that up last year in April.

Trials really take their toll. Yes they make me stronger but why do they take so long?

Now that is the mystery of the universe, isn't it? But I think you answered your own question: they make you stronger.

But I understand where you are coming from. Sometimes you just want to say: Okay Lord, I think I'm strong enough! I need a rest!

[kona0197]

I haven't had a rest since I was a kid. One thing after another. This better be worth it.

[Ray A]

Who is lecturing or ostracising?

I agree, we do not need to feel self righteous at the weaknesses of others, particularly regarding the WoW. A friend of mine used to state that there are things more cankering to the soul than tobacco or alcohol.

For sure, like being a 24/7 enemy of the Church.

But the fact remains that it is now the 'law' as it were, and while we don't condemn, neither should we encourage or state 'that's okay, I'm sure the Lord understands.' The standards are set, and it is up to us to meet the standards, not lower them to be more inclusive.

I agree. Mormons have very worthwhile and high standards, and my admiration for this is quite high. But alcohol does not wither testimony. If it did, Joseph would have gone apostate.

I know a former alcoholic who was told he'd be dead by 50 unless he gave it up. He met the missionaries (who dragged him out of a gutter), converted, and today he's nearing 90!

No, you should not lower the standards, while keeping in mind that one or two beers after work does not make a man or woman "evil". I think you already know that.

[crytsprospect]

Anything that helps you grow is worth it . I wish we could have peaceful regrouping vacations tho :}

[Guest GreenMum]

You guys aren't supposed to have Pepsi either...

^^^Um, since when??

Just putting in my two cents... I used to drink, before becoming a member. I was told the WoW, and now I don't. If it was important enought for God to include in the WoW, then it is important enough for me to follow.

Two reasons I am glad I don't:

1. I am MUCH healthier!

2. I used to think I could "hold my own" but, now I realize that is the worst thing a drinker could say!

How did I quit cold turkey?? The church meant more to me... and I sought strength in the gospel. :) It was never a battle and I didn't look back. It was only a "drink" now and then, so it was the easiest thing to give up! :)

[WillowTheWhisp]

I used to drink Baileys because I loved the taste. Then I joined the church. I no longer drink Baileys. I never got drunk but I have not tried to justify to myself that drinking Baileys would be OK as long as I don't get drunk. If I did that I would not feel I had any right to apply for a temple recommend. Maybe it has more to do with being willing to listen to Heavenly Father than it has to do with whether or not we get drunk.

I am actually beginning to question my own commitment to the WOW as I believe I probably eat too much meat and not enough fresh fruit and I do nit get enough sleep. You have given me the inspiration to want to try harder, for which I thank you. :)

[Canuck Mormon]

I used to be the same way kona, I would love to have a beer with dinner and maybe another during the evening. Once I started to attend church and was receiving blessings from my Heavenly Father, I stopped. After all the blessings he gave to me it was the least I could do for him. I obeyed his counsel and stopped drinking. Does that mean that I never wanted a beer again, no. I still get cravings for it, especially on a hot arid day. The covenant I made with him though stops me. It is a challenge I have, but I always try and do what the Lord asks of me because I know I will be blessed for doing so.

If your not ready to give it up, don't. No one will think less of you, at least I won't.

[a-train]

Although current Church doctrine is that all alcoholic beverages are forbidden, in the past the Word of Wisdom was interpreted differently. Some have noted that it is "strong drinks" which are forbidden and that "mild drinks" made from barley are permissible; in the old days "strong drink" referred to hard liquor and distilled spirits, while "mild drink" referred to lower-alcohol fermented beverages like beer (which was often barely considered alcohol). Several General Authorities in the past (the Apostles Brigham Young Jr. and John Henry Smith as recently as 1901) have asserted that beer is thus allowed, and this was also apparently the view taken by Joseph Smith himself.

Around the turn of the century the view generally became that all alcoholic beverages were to be avoided, but strict adherence was still not enforced, and many leaders in the church did not keep the Word of Wisdom perfectly. Only in 1921 was strict adherence to the Word of Wisdom made a requirement for temple attendance, as the Church was influenced by Prohibitionist propaganda and allied itself with the movement.

Glad to see you are informed. I wonder if we will be able to drink beer again when the drug war is over.

-a-train

[kona0197]

GreenMum: Pepsi has caffeine. Church teachings say to stay away from caffeine.

[Misshalfway]

It is not about the logic of drinking vs not drinking. It is about the will of God and knowing that he knows best. He is our father.... we his beloved children. I don't give my children permission to watch certain programs.... not because the programs are bad.... sometimes it is the commercials. The law is for our day. We have circumstances in our world that they didn't in the past. Our world is bigger and more complex. The consequences for drinking are far greater than before. Jesus didn't have to fight profit hungry corporations who desire the addictions of the people to line their pocket books. That is my earthly explanations. God may have different reasons. He says that this law is for the weakest of the saints. This must mean that he is trying to strengthen us in some eternal way.

In the end, it is a test of agency. Will we do whatsoever the Lord commands? And with all of Father's commandments, he promises great blessings. In this case, he will trade you your relaxing beer after work for "wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures."

Father wants the best for us. He is guiding us to the BEST things.... not just the easy ones.

[Guest GreenMum]

GreenMum: Pepsi has caffeine. Church teachings say to stay away from caffeine.

:wub: Lol... they make caffeine free!

I can't remember the last time I was at a singles event, but I do remember they had Mountain Dew there... so I am sure it is just advised against over imbibing.. correct me if I'm wrong...

There is a HUGE difference between caffeine in soda pop and alcohol in beer... one beer can seriously impair some people's cognitive functioning... I have never known one Mt. Dew to have the same affect.

[crytsprospect]

and we each grow at our own pace. We learn and accept things in our own time frame. My husband loves the church and he will quit drinking , it will happen but in his time . He has to have the conviction, not just the desire

[MorningStar]

I love the Word of Wisdom. I love the fact that we all abstain together because of those of us who might have a weakness when it comes to alcohol.

My mom's parents were both alcoholics. Her dad seemed to drink because of PTSD from the war he was in. She said he was a nice man, but he neglected the kids with his drinking and she was even molested right in front of his face by one of his "friends". He was oblivious because he was was drunk. Then he drove drunk with my grandmother and my one-year-old aunt in the car and they were hit by a train. Amazingly they all lived, but it knocked out all of my grandmother's teeth. This was when she was 30. A huge chunk of her shin was also taken out.

After a while, my grandma took the philosophy of "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" and she started drinking like my grandpa. My mom said there was very little supervision over the 5 kids. Then one night for whatever reason (we don't know), my grandma took the kids in the middle of the night to another state. When my grandpa woke up and found them gone, he drank himself almost to death and lived in a mental institution for years.

My grandma started leaving the kids for months at a time completely unsupervised. My mom doesn't remember owning toys, she doesn't know how they ate or continued to go to school. Finally her mom was gone for good and the kids were split up as they all went to foster homes. My grandma would call her mom to check on the kids once in a while, but my mom heard nothing from her for 6 years. I asked her, "Did she ever explain why she left?" Her grandmother told her she said she thought it was better for them to have no mom than a bad mom.

When my mom was almost 18, her foster family got permission to take them with her to California and out of the blue, she was contacted by her mom who found out they had been living quite close to each other for a while. She asked to meet her at a state park with her new husband and his parents. Apparently she was trying to get her life back together. Before that she was on the streets off and on or living in hotels. Another time she invited her over for dinner, but she chickened out and didn't show. My mom ended up making dinner for her new step-dad.

When my mom went back up to Washington and got married, she got some letters from her mom. In the last one, she had just had my brother and she was asking about what she should send for him, saying she couldn't wait to meet him. But she never met any of her grandkids. She disappeared again after she called her mom and asked for money, saying he thought she was dying of cirrhosis, then she talked to her daughter and said she had a new boyfriend (her husband died) and was going on a vacation with him to a state that started with an M. No one ever heard from her again. That was 39 years ago and we still don't know if she's dead or alive. She would be 85 now if she were alive. We have her SS#, but there is no record of her death. Our best guess is that she was a Jane Doe. Last year I submitted my DNA sample for a missing person's program. Samples of unidentified remains have been collected and if hers turn up, we will finally know what happened to her.

As for my grandpa, he finally succeeded in drinking himself to death when I was a teenager. He was in a nursing home and I never really got to know him because he was incoherent from pickling his brain. A bar down the street took pity on him and gave him free drinks. One night he drank himself into a coma and we watched him have seizures for a week. It was horrible to hear him moaning like that.

Now one of my cousins on the same side of the family is an alcoholic and lost his wife and child because of it. She left him after he was supposed to be watching their daughter and she came home to him passed out and their baby screaming for who knows how long. Now he's about to lose another wife.

Of course, not everyone who drinks will have these terrible things happen to them, but you can't become an alcoholic without first drinking alcohol. I bet if you were to ask my grandma and grandpa now if they wished they had never taken that first drink, they would say yes. It cost them everything. Even if I weren't LDS, I wouldn't touch that stuff with a 10 foot pole. It's been horrible seeing my mom cry because she doesn't know where her mom is and is still hurt that she was abandoned.

Some people are at first just "social drinkers", but then they start turning to alcohol as a coping device when difficult trials come. It's just not worth it.

[Ray A]

Only in 1921 was strict adherence to the Word of Wisdom made a requirement for temple attendance, as the Church was influenced by Prohibitionist propaganda and allied itself with the movement.

A little postscript I'd like to add here. The Church leaders aligned with the Prohibitionists, and Heber J. Grant in particular, as he struggled with alcohol himself as a youth. This is recorded in Ronald W. Walker's "Young Heber J. Grants' Years of Passage" (BYU Studies, vol.24, 1984):

The Word of Wisdom also challenged the young man’s faith.

While his Thirteenth Ward Sunday School tutors inveighed against

coffee, tea, tobacco, and alcohol, the prohibition of these commodities

was never made to be a religious test. Church members could be

considered “good” Mormons and still occasionally imbibe. In fact,

devout Rachel’s boardinghouse first introduced Heber to the taste of

coffee. He soon became addicted, and despite Rachel’s gentle disapproval

he found that he could not abandon it. Time after time he

quit, only to find his appetite uncontrollable. Finally, “Aunt” Susan

Grant, one of his father’s plural wives, served him a cup of her special

blend of creamed coffee. Heber demurred.

“Have you promised anybody that you would quit?”

“I have promised myself a number of times that I would quit,”

he allowed. But “now I have said I am going to take a cup of coffee

whenever I want it and I haven’t drank any for months.”

“This is a fine cup to quit on,” said the angelic Aunt Susan, who

was entirely out of character as a temptress.

“All right, my dear aunt.” Heber raised the cup to his lips, his

mouth watering. But after a moment the full and undrunk cup

returned to the table, and with that victory his craving for the beverage

ceased.

The young man had an even greater difficulty with beer. Fearing

an early death like his father’s and convinced of the virtues of life

insurance, Salt Lake City’s youngest agent repeatedly sought coverage

to protect his mother. Nineteenth-century actuarial tables, however,

discriminated against slender girths and no company would issue Heber a policy. Determined to gain weight, Heber sought out

Dr. Benedict, who had an immediate solution. If Heber would drink

four glasses of beer daily, which Dr. Benedict prescribed, within two

years he would have the additional twenty pounds necessary for

coverage.

At first Heber found beer “bitter and distasteful,” like his mother’s

herbal “kinnikinnick” tea. But he quickly acquired both a business

and a personal taste for it. Within a year, he secured the fire insurance

business of most Salt Lake City saloons and Utah breweries, an additional

ten pounds, and a growing relish for the savor of hops. His

daily four-glass limit became five, and occasionally grew to six.

He warred with his acute sense of conscience. Rereading the

Word of Wisdom, he resolved to abandon his drinking and place his

health and his mother’s future with the Lord, “insurance or no insurance.”

But resolutions were easier made than kept. “I wanted some

[beer] so bad that I drank it again,” he confessed. Finally, he found

strength in the same formula he had used with coffee. By telling

himself he was free to take a drink whenever he wished, he overcame

his obsession and ceased drinking. Just as quickly, he lost his trade

with the saloons and breweries of the territory.

http://byustudies.byu.edu/shop/pdfsrc/43.1WalkerYears.pdf (PDF)

Grant urged Church members to vote to retain Prohibition, primarily because of his own experiences with the "demon" drink. However, Utah, along with Ohio and Pennsylvania, were the states which broke the voting deadlock, ending Prohibition. I guess this is one example that contradicts the oft repeated saying that "when the leaders speak, the thinking has been done".

[kona0197]

It's so hard to believe that the most destructive substance known to man - alcohol - is legal. I need to start thinking about why I need to have a beer ever so often.

[Ray A]

It's so hard to believe that the most destructive substance known to man - alcohol - is legal.

Illegal drugs kill much less people than alcohol, but tobacco is the deadliest substance, outnumbering alcohol-related deaths. Here is one statistical review of deaths in the US:

Tobacco 435,000

Poor Diet and Physical Inactivity 365,000

Alcohol 85,000

Microbial Agents 75,000

Toxic Agents 55,000

Motor Vehicle Crashes 26,347

Adverse Reactions to Prescription Drugs 32,000

Suicide 30,622

Incidents Involving Firearms 29,000

Homicide 20,308

Sexual Behaviors 20,000

All Illicit Drug Use, Direct and Indirect 17,000

Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs Such As Aspirin 7,600

Marijuana 0

[Moksha]

GreenMum: Pepsi has caffeine. Church teachings say to stay away from caffeine.

That is why we also have the free agency to also choose Coca-Cola. Sometimes we oldsters can be bothered by Pepsi being "for those who think young". Sure, it can be fun for a Friday night fling, but on Sundays we want the sobering maturity of a well aged Coke.

[WillowTheWhisp]

A bit of a tangent that I couldn't resist throwing in here - when we were in North Africa Coca-Cola was the first Arab word I learned to recognise. I knew if I saw it on a sign there was more than likely to be a cafe under the sign!

[kona0197]

Illegal drugs kill much less people than alcohol, but tobacco is the deadliest substance, outnumbering alcohol-related deaths. Here is one statistical review of deaths in the US:

I disagree. If you throw in how many people drunk driving kills than alcohol is number one. I may not smoke anymore but I'm not to the point of saying tobacco is all bad. I've been tempted to start smoking again.

[Ray A]

I disagree. If you throw in how many people drunk driving kills than alcohol is number one. I may not smoke anymore but I'm not to the point of saying tobacco is all bad. I've been tempted to start smoking again.

The motor vehicle accident statistic doesn't bear this out. Even if every person in the US was killed while DUI, or a victim of a DUI, it would still not match the smoking deaths figure of over 400,000.

You'd be far better off sticking to a couple of beers a night than taking up smoking. Alcohol at least has some redeeming qualities (in small amounts that is), in that it can benefit the heart (beyond two drinks for women, and four drinks for men, per day, it becomes harmful). Smoking has no redeeming qualities.

[kona0197]

I used to smoke. When I did I didn't have this stupid sleep apnea. I was a bit calmer perhaps.

[Ray A]

I used to smoke. When I did I didn't have this stupid sleep apnea. I was a bit calmer perhaps.

It's your life, and your choice. Smoking dramatically raises the risk of emphysema and lung cancer. 85% of emphysema victims are smokers, and 9 out of 10 lung cancer victims are smokers. You might be one of the lucky ones if you decide to take it up again, but it's your life, and your decision.

[Heavenguard]

I'm going to throw out there that Jesus not only drank wine, but performed the miracle of turning water into wine at a wedding banquet - the finest wine that had been served all evening to boot! At the last supper he told his apostles to drink from his cup that he was giving them.

According to the bible (I cannot give reference to other Mormon-specific texts), it isn't the act of consuming alcohol that is deemed as a wrong, but rather it is being in the state of drunkenness that is wrong.

Romans 13: 11- 14

11And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

(Can see also 1 Tim 3, 1 Peter 4:3, Deuteronomy 21:20, Galatuans 5:19-21, Isaiah 28)

In the above passages, it is not drinking that is condemned, but drunkenness.

Sexual immorality is wrong, but sex itself is not wrong. Dissention is wrong, but disagreement is not. Orgies are wrong, but festivities are not. Likewise, drunkenness is wrong, but the act of drinking itself is not.

But of course, you don't get drunk without drinking. It's true that God commands sobriety from his Aaron and his sons and the Nazarites. (Probably the Levites too.) Drunkenness is bad because we lose our better judgment and hindrances and may commit wrongful acts we otherwise wouldn't. (For example, Lot's daughters got him drunk before sleeping with him.)

Being a non-Mormon Christian, I have no contention with drinking - but I am careful to not let myself be drunk.

Examples where wine is not condemned, but accepted, and in some places, even seen as good:

Genesis 14:18; A priest of God brings out bread and wine and proceeds to bless Abram

Gen 27:28; Isaac blesses Jacob to have an abundance of grain and wine

Exodus 29:39; God instructs wine to be included as a drink offering (it is included as a drink offering in many other instances as well)

Deuteronomy 7:13 God's blessing (in part) in an abundance of wine (having good crops)

And much more, I'm certain.