Is the law of tithing for every member?

[Belle]

One of my relatives, she is a member of your church, is very poor. She become money from the government (345 Euro a month and her rent) for living. Ten percent would be at least 35 Euro. What would your church said about such a case? Did she must pay titing?

[Elgama]

I'd tell her to pray and discuss it with her Bishop - I've paid tithing on a low income and not paid it, (my Bishop said as my income was social security it was upto my own conscience) - I also paid it in the days when UK students got something approaching a grant when I was paying rent at £65 a week on £3000 a year, the difference when I pay it is my finances add up and miracles happen.

-Charley

[VisionOfLehi]

There are some instances, such as lottery winnings, where the Church does not want you to pay tithe, and as I have heard, there are some where they leave that option up to you.

The government counts my tax return as income earned, but I'm under the impression that I don't need to pay a tithe on that to be paying a full tithe. Although I need to double check that, I believe it is so.

I'm sure paying it in this instant couldn't hurt, but I'm not sure it's required. However...

41 ¶ And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.

42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I'm surprised that the government counts a tax refund as income - that is money they've already taken off you once in error so taxing it would seem totally wrong.

As for tithing that is something which the person really needs to discuss with the Bishop. There may be factors which we do not know about. If a person is paying full tithing and cannot afford food to live they can go to their Bishop for help. The Lord always blesses us when we obey him.

[VisionOfLehi]

I'm surprised, too. I don't make that much money, anyway, so I get all of my taxes back so far, even when including last year's return... But when I filled mine out there was a section/description that made it clear that I had to count my tax return, too.

[miztrniceguy]

i pay tithing on my gross income, not my net, so when i get my tax refund i do not tithe on it, since i tithed already. if i was to pay tithing on net income, then i would tithe my refund, too.

i figure better to tithe on the gross and overpay the Lord(if that were truly possible), than to underpay him.

[miztrniceguy]

I'm surprised, too. I don't make that much money, anyway, so I get all of my taxes back so far, even when including last year's return... But when I filled mine out there was a section/description that made it clear that I had to count my tax return, too.

i think the fed return asks for the amount of state taxes refunded.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Maybe they ask for the amount for their records but not in order to tax you on it.

[NeuroTypical]

There are some instances, such as lottery winnings, where the Church does not want you to pay tithe...

Hi VisionOfLehi,

Could you tell me your source for this? I've never heard it before.

From what I can tell, the church has not issued any guidance at all about tithing and lottery winnings, or about any other specific income. The guidance they do issue, is we should tithe one tenth of our intrest/increase, and it's up to us to determine what that means.

We're counseled not to gamble or play lotteries, and it seems like there are plenty of 'mormon urban legends' floating around about how someone won a lottery and tried to pay tithing on it, but the envelope burned the Bishop's hand, or the spirit told him not to accept it, or whatever. But stories that float around do not doctrine make, at least not in my book.

LM

[a-train]

I don't care if we are homeless, we pay our tithing. Then, as full tithe payers and members in good standing, we go to our Bishop and he has full authority as the representing Elder in the ward over the welfare program to utilize whatever resources are necessary for our sustenence.

That is the will of the LORD and the policy of the Church. It is the duty and obligation of the saints to provide food, shelter, clothing, utilities and so forth for our fellow members. Such efforts are to be overseen by the Bishop, by revelation and further monitered and administered by two elders chosen by the Elders Quorum President as Home Teachers.

It matters not to the LORD, nor to the Church, if your income and the tithing thereon is but a tiny amount. If the Church members have to put together a hundered or even a thousand times that amount to afford your sustenance, it is to be done.

Tithing is not just a manner by which the Church obtains money to afford buildings and so forth. Tithing is a law of God by which the obedient are spiritually enhanced and blessed.

It would be a tragic mistake to counsel someone not to take advantage of the blessing of tithing.

-a-train

[FigBearingThistle]

One of my relatives, she is a member of your church, is very poor. She become money from the government (345 Euro a month and her rent) for living. Ten percent would be at least 35 Euro. What would your church said about such a case? Did she must pay titing?

The law of tithing is for every member, no matter how meager the income. By paying tithing, we receive blessings which we could not receive otherwise. This is a matter of faith. Those outside the church would not understand the principle of obedience and blessings, but those who have lived the law have seen evidence for the direct connection between the two.

She can always talk to her bishop to receive assistance, food, clothing, etc., but withholding tithing would prevent her from the blessings from God for which she is otherwise fully entitled.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I may have mentioned this before - in which case please forgive my repetition - but it's an illustration of how paying tithing blessed some friends of mine who were going through a hard time. They were 'advised' that they could opt out of paying tithing during a time of struggle when the wife became pregnant. They had thought their family was complete and that they would not have any more children as there was quite a gap since the last one but then she was expecting again and they had no baby things. However, they chose to pay their tithing and were blessed in unimaginable ways including a brand new cot and everything needed to furnish a nursery because an elderly couple in the Ward moved house and bought a brand new house which had been a show home. One of the rooms was furnished as a nursery and at their age they didn't need any of it so passed it all on the the family who did.

[HomeAgain]

Tithing keeps us humble. And so does poverty. Ha! But if we withhold from the Lord, we're really showing a lack of trust in him. I've had my ups and downs with tithing. But I know that it's a true principle designed to bless our lives. My husband and I were recently discussing how much tithing to give to our "churches" since we are pretty maxed out with car payments, student loans, and three small mouths to feed. Rather than make cuts in discretionary spending (he eats out a lot), he said we could cut back on tithing to his church if it would help us make ends meet. I shot back: "Well, you may prefer to pay your tithing to Burger King, but I don't." I felt bad for saying that, but it's the truth. We always think of skimping on what we pay the Lord, but rarely on what we can cut back in our own lives. Almost anybody can reduce their spending by 10% just by being more careful, shopping in bulk, cutting out waste.

Paying tithing forces me to live more consciously. I know that I don't have any money to waste, so I'm a lot more thoughtful about every expenditure.

[Misshalfway]

The Lord wants everyone, regardless of their financial situation, to have access to his blessings -- the ones that are so abundant that we won't have room enough to receive them. The real question is not whether or not the church would expect her to pay, but whether or not the church would want her to have the blessings of the Lord. Paying tithes and offerings is the condition set by the Lord to open the doors to the windows of heaven. He determined that -- not the church. So I say if the Lord himself says to obey and that he will bless..... then tell your friend to pay and wait because the Lord will surely and generously bless!

[tubaloth]

Yes she should pay tithing, If you have find a loop hold in the commandment (it is a commandment) then I would be willing to listen, but I think its pretty clear. With that said its not really up to use. We are just giving you our opinion on the matter. She needs to talk to the bishop. if she HAS been a faithful member and paid tithing in the past. She well get some help through the welfare program.

[VisionOfLehi]

Hi VisionOfLehi,

Could you tell me your source for this? I've never heard it before.

From what I can tell, the church has not issued any guidance at all about tithing and lottery winnings, or about any other specific income. The guidance they do issue, is we should tithe one tenth of our intrest/increase, and it's up to us to determine what that means.

We're counseled not to gamble or play lotteries, and it seems like there are plenty of 'mormon urban legends' floating around about how someone won a lottery and tried to pay tithing on it, but the envelope burned the Bishop's hand, or the spirit told him not to accept it, or whatever. But stories that float around do not doctrine make, at least not in my book.

LM

Never heard those stories, just been taught that since the Church is against gambling in any and all forms that they don't want your gains from this activity.

I'm under the impression that it's your choice, and that you're counseled not to do it... *shrug*

[Moksha]

This question arose on another forum, and a Bishop there said specifically that he did not consider bare subsistence income like SSI to be something that should be tithed. It did not represent a true increase and besides, the grantors of such income did not expect it to be tithed and the acceptors should respect that expectation.

[WillowTheWhisp]

That is the way I have always seen it that if the Social Security was aware that you were living on 90% of what they gave you then they would only pay you 90% as they pay you the basic minimum subsistence level and you are saying that you can exist on 10% less. Of course they would then reduce the 90% by a further 10% the minute you started paying tithing on that and so on ad infinitum!

[darrel]

The interesting thing to me is that while some struggle with the principle of tithing, it is really a lesser commandment. The law of consecration is the higher principle. We will have all things in common when the Lord institutes this principle in our lives again.

I have a coworker whos family roots go back to the United Order. Those who lived it were greatly blessed and envied by those who did not.

[MobyMule]

What is a proper tithe?

For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their interest annually, which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this. We feel that every member of the Church should be entitled to make his own decision as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly. (First Presidency Statement, 19 March 1970)

To me if the members pray about the amount and has the spirit reveal to them that is ok then they are a full-tithe payer. It is alot simpler than the members make it out to be. Any Bishop who goes beyond taking someones word for their tithe-paying status is going to far imho. Any lying will be handled by the Lord.

To answer your question yes this is for every member to do.

[DigitalShadow]

As a non-member recently introduced into LDS culture (3 years ago), I've always found this concept interesting. Initially it struck me as rather odd and vaguely superstitious to say that the Lord would demand you return part of your financial increases or he will withhold blessings. Maybe I'm just an optimist, but it feels like my life has been full of what would be perceived as blessings even though I'm agnostic and always have been. If I'm being punished for my lack of faith and lack of financial contributions to the church, I have not felt it.

As I have learned more about the reasons behind it and the good the church does with the money, it certainly seems less strange, but I still can't say I fully understand the concept. I know that the Lord is not an accountant tallying every peice of income you get and expecting His cut, but I can't help but feel that way sometimes when people talk about it.

Are there direct results that are supposed to come from paying or not paying tithing? To me it seems like members *should* pay tithing to be more faithful members, but to expect something as a result of paying or not paying seems superstitious to me. But then again I don't think the Lord blesses the faithful any more than the faithless in the mortal world from my personal observations, but I think many people here disagree.

[Misshalfway]

As a non-member recently introduced into LDS culture (3 years ago), I've always found this concept interesting. Initially it struck me as rather odd and vaguely superstitious to say that the Lord would demand you return part of your financial increases or he will withhold blessings. Maybe I'm just an optimist, but it feels like my life has been full of what would be perceived as blessings even though I'm agnostic and always have been. If I'm being punished for my lack of faith and lack of financial contributions to the church, I have not felt it.

As I have learned more about the reasons behind it and the good the church does with the money, it certainly seems less strange, but I still can't say I fully understand the concept. I know that the Lord is not an accountant tallying every peice of income you get and expecting His cut, but I can't help but feel that way sometimes when people talk about it.

Are there direct results that are supposed to come from paying or not paying tithing? To me it seems like members *should* pay tithing to be more faithful members, but to expect something as a result of paying or not paying seems superstitious to me. But then again I don't think the Lord blesses the faithful any more than the faithless in the mortal world from my personal observations, but I think many people here disagree.

The concept of tithing is not really about punishment. It is about faith and blessings that reward faith and lead one to have some form of evidence and confirmation of their faith. I think it helps if you remember we think of God as our literal father and that He is raising us to the best things..... the things of the eternities. The law of tithing is a mechanism of producing and stretching faith. It is a teaching tool...... and a way for God to accomplish the purpose of the church on the earth. I don't think God is going around punishing every unknowing person for not paying tithing. Where there is no law, there is no punishment. And God DOES bless his children because he loves them. Whether they acknowledge him or not. Perhaps He has blessed you and will continue to bless you to prepare you for your great purpose here on the earth. I do that with my own children whether they clean their rooms or not to help prepare them for the day when they will love their own children.

[HomeAgain]

As a non-member recently introduced into LDS culture (3 years ago), I've always found this concept interesting. Initially it struck me as rather odd and vaguely superstitious to say that the Lord would demand you return part of your financial increases or he will withhold blessings. Maybe I'm just an optimist, but it feels like my life has been full of what would be perceived as blessings even though I'm agnostic and always have been. If I'm being punished for my lack of faith and lack of financial contributions to the church, I have not felt it.

As I have learned more about the reasons behind it and the good the church does with the money, it certainly seems less strange, but I still can't say I fully understand the concept. I know that the Lord is not an accountant tallying every peice of income you get and expecting His cut, but I can't help but feel that way sometimes when people talk about it.

Are there direct results that are supposed to come from paying or not paying tithing? To me it seems like members *should* pay tithing to be more faithful members, but to expect something as a result of paying or not paying seems superstitious to me. But then again I don't think the Lord blesses the faithful any more than the faithless in the mortal world from my personal observations, but I think many people here disagree.

Hi DS ... Even though you claim to be agnostic, you should be giving talks in sacrament meeting! :) You've hit the nail on the head saying people should pay to be more faithful. I believe this is exactly the point of tithing. The Lord (and the Church) doesn't need our tithing. (He could have instructed Pres. Hinckley to have bought a million shares of Google at $85 if he needed the money.) And, like you, I don't think he withholds blessings if we don't pay tithing. But we pay tithing to improve ourselves. It shows faith, discipline, and it allows us to participate in blessing others' lives. I always find that I have more money when I pay my tithing because I'm living more consciously. My paycheck is consecrated for divine purposes, so I'm more careful not to blow it!

The blessings come through our faithfulness, and in many ways are self-fulfilling.

Reminds me of a funny joke my Dad used to say: "They say that Mormons live longer because they don't drink or smoke or engage in premarital sex. But it just seems longer." Ha!

The same could be said of tithing: People say they are blessed when they pay their tithing, but maybe it just feels that way because they've sacrificed something for a higher purpose. That is a blessing in and of itself.

Take care!

Nicole

[VisionOfLehi]

As a non-member recently introduced into LDS culture (3 years ago), I've always found this concept interesting. Initially it struck me as rather odd and vaguely superstitious to say that the Lord would demand you return part of your financial increases or he will withhold blessings. Maybe I'm just an optimist, but it feels like my life has been full of what would be perceived as blessings even though I'm agnostic and always have been. If I'm being punished for my lack of faith and lack of financial contributions to the church, I have not felt it.

As I have learned more about the reasons behind it and the good the church does with the money, it certainly seems less strange, but I still can't say I fully understand the concept. I know that the Lord is not an accountant tallying every peice of income you get and expecting His cut, but I can't help but feel that way sometimes when people talk about it.

Are there direct results that are supposed to come from paying or not paying tithing? To me it seems like members *should* pay tithing to be more faithful members, but to expect something as a result of paying or not paying seems superstitious to me. But then again I don't think the Lord blesses the faithful any more than the faithless in the mortal world from my personal observations, but I think many people here disagree.

I have gotten certain money in the mail, when I needed it... Such as a tax return (last year's). I got a random phone call asking me if I wanted a job that would give me, essentially, just enough money to pay for my cellphone bill without worry.

My mom has received money, I can't remember what from (some sort of error or bonus), that we needed at the moment for some behind bills or emergency.

All this I attribute to me paying faithful tithes. (Yes, even my mom's money. I'm the sole member and priesthood holder in my family, and the whole "cup runneth over" thing)

• 3 Ne. 24: 10

  10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house; and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

I also receive a sense of spiritual peace knowing that there's something I can do that the Lord has asked me to, and I can actually measure it and know I'm being faithful. There's a lot of commandments, but this one I can actually keep track of and know that I'm doing well.

You could call it luck, or coincidence, or even point out that those things happen to other people who don't pay tithes all the time. That's true. But I know WHY they happened for me. Other people... They got their blessings for whatever reason, mine is a direct result of my obedience.

[DigitalShadow]

I have gotten certain money in the mail, when I needed it... Such as a tax return (last year's). I got a random phone call asking me if I wanted a job that would give me, essentially, just enough money to pay for my cellphone bill without worry.

My mom has received money, I can't remember what from (some sort of error or bonus), that we needed at the moment for some behind bills or emergency.

All this I attribute to me paying faithful tithes. (Yes, even my mom's money. I'm the sole member and priesthood holder in my family, and the whole "cup runneth over" thing)

• 3 Ne. 24: 10

  10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house; and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of Hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

I also receive a sense of spiritual peace knowing that there's something I can do that the Lord has asked me to, and I can actually measure it and know I'm being faithful. There's a lot of commandments, but this one I can actually keep track of and know that I'm doing well.

You could call it luck, or coincidence, or even point out that those things happen to other people who don't pay tithes all the time. That's true. But I know WHY they happened for me. Other people... They got their blessings for whatever reason, mine is a direct result of my obedience.

Spiritual peace I respect and can understand that as being a reward for tithing, but do you think that God looks at all those who gave tithing and carefully manipulates the physical world to sometimes give them special perks as a result? I've gotten very similar perks as you while being blatantly disobedient by your standards. You can say its for different reasons, maybe He recognizes that I'm a good person despite my lack of faith, but if there is an omnipotent God out there interfering with the physical world to reward the faithful, wouldn't He then withhold those rewards from the non faithful and disobedient if that were truly the criterea He is rewarding?

Don't get me wrong, I think paying tithing is a wonderful thing for those who do, but the attitude some people get essentially equating it to "buying" physical blessings somewhat puts me off. I know that is not the intent so I don't fault the church for this, but the way people see it still fascinates me.