1st Nephi Chapter 14:10 Church of the devil

[HoosierGuy]

One of the things that stood out to me when I was reading 1st Nephi for the first time back in December, was the Church of the Lamb of God

and the church of the devil. I particularly remember this:

1st Nephi chapter 14:10

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save atwo churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the bother is the church of the cdevil; wherefore, dwhoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the ewhore of all the earth.

11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many awaters; and she had dominion over ball the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were afew, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon ball the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

What exactly is the church of the devil? Back in December when

I read it, I took the above as - if you are not in the right church (lds)

then you are automatically in the wrong (devil) church. Even if you

don’t' go to church you are automatically in the church of the devil.

That's how I felt after reading it.

What's the correct interpretation of the above verses?

[skalenfehl]

It's a very black and white scripture. Bruce R. McConkie gave a very bold explanation a long time ago in a book that he published, but that particular edition was never republished. I completely understand why.

D&C 123: 12

12 For there are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it—

[fallen_angel]

i don't know. i think it could be interpreted in a more metaphorical sense. the "church of the lamb" being those people who are faithful, pure in heart, and follow christ to the best of their understanding, no matter what actual "church" they belong to. i don't think merely being a member of the LDS faith makes one a member of the "church of the lamb" in that sense. there are many outside the LDS church who live better than many mormons, and vice versa.

[skalenfehl]

Planet LDS Bruce R McConkie

[fallen_angel]

Planet LDS Bruce R McConkie

The titles church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature - whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious - which are designed to take men on a course that leads them away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God."

i take issue with anything that comes from mcConkies book "mormon doctrine"..any edition...however, this statement from the link u provided, to me, does not mean ALL other churches are part of the "church of the devil" (something that seems wrong & offensive to imply) but rather those that are blatantly leading people away from God...

[skalenfehl]

Hence the scripture I quoted in my first post. By the way, McConkie did state that the book reflected his own words and not necessarily the church's official position. This is why that edition was never republished.

[WillowTheWhisp]

The titles church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature - whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious - which are designed to take men on a course that leads them away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God."

i take issue with anything that comes from mcConkies book "mormon doctrine"..any edition...however, this statement from the link u provided, to me, does not mean ALL other churches are part of the "church of the devil" (something that seems wrong & offensive to imply) but rather those that are blatantly leading people away from God...

Could somebody please explain to me why there is this attitude towards Bruce R. McConkie? Did he commit some awful sin of which I am unaware? All I can recall of him is of a deeply spiritual man who knew his Saviour and was not afraid to look forward to meeting him face to face.

[skalenfehl]

Bruce R. McConkie was not evil, did not commit some awful sin or was a horrible man. He was a very humble person, loving father and husband, devout member of the church and devoted member of the Quorum of the Twelve and bore his testimony plainly.

His last talk.

[a-train]

Could somebody please explain to me why there is this attitude towards Bruce R. McConkie? Did he commit some awful sin of which I am unaware? All I can recall of him is of a deeply spiritual man who knew his Saviour and was not afraid to look forward to meeting him face to face.

He, like Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, John the Baptist, and so many others, called 'em like he saw 'em and that is difficult for some to swallow.

Jesus called 'em like He saw 'em and nations have found Him difficult to swallow: 'they [are] all wrong...all their creeds [are] an abomination in [my] sight...those professors [are] all corrupt...: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”'

I have family that attend many different Christian sects. Are they members of the Church of the Devil? If they are attending for nothing more than to be seen of men, with their hearts far from the LORD, then yes. What about Mormons who are unfaithful? Certainly. What does the LORD intend to do about it? Is He going to simply destroy them?

You and I have had our share in that Church. We have lied before, or harbored hatred or bitterness. We've allowed pride to enter our hearts and enjoyed public approval without regard to our standing with the LORD. Some of us have been downright wicked. Are we finished? Hell and a lake of fire and brimstone for us, right?

What is the LORD doing about all this?

'And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, Nephi, saying: Thou hast beheld that if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them; and thou also knowest concerning the covenants of the Lord unto the house of Israel; and thou also hast heard that whoso repenteth not must perish.' (1 Nephi 14:5)

The LORD is calling us out of Babylon. He has prepared the way of salvation. He has brought forth a great and marvelous work in the Restoration, 'either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds.'

It IS black and white. There is nothing we can do to be neutral. 'I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.' (Rev. 3:15-16)

The ARE only two Churches, two kingdoms, two powers of influence on the earth: that of God, and that of the devil.

Mormons and non-Mormons for their various reasons want to believe that a person having not been baptized in the LDS Church can be a member of the Church of the Lamb. A person cannot serve the LORD in His kingdom in ignorance. Except they be born of water and of the Spirit, they cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Those that have not been spiritually born again, who cannot see the kingdom of God, how can they enter? How can they function as a member of a body they have not entered?

There are many who have lived and died wanting to enter, but who could not find the kingdom of God. Are these lost? We know they are not.

We need not be bashful nor ashamed. The LORD has restored the only true and living Church upon the face of the whole earth and it is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And the Church of the Devil, what is it? It is the vast kingdom all around us of many sects, creeds, political sciences, philosophies, doctrines, and ideas. All of which are the commandments of men.

-a-train

[Flyonthewall]

Unfortunately, because of BRM's claim in Mormon Doctrine, there were a lot of members that took it that way, and may not have heard or heard about his retraction. So there still may be a few older members who still have this outlook, but the official stance of the church repudiates that outlook.

[MorningStar]

I think it comes down to the parable of the sheep and goats. Those who serve God are sheep and those who don't are goats. :) Church of the Lamb = sheep, Church of the devil = goats.

Matthew 25

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Bruce R. McConkie was not evil, did not commit some awful sin or was a horrible man. He was a very humble person, loving father and husband, devout member of the church and devoted member of the Quorum of the Twelve and bore his testimony plainly.

His last talk.

I saw/heard his last talk and it impressed me so much I don't think I'll ever forget it. This is why it shocked me so much when I first read people speaking out against him on here and not accepting a quotation from him as being valid.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Unfortunately, because of BRM's claim in Mormon Doctrine, there were a lot of members that took it that way, and may not have heard or heard about his retraction. So there still may be a few older members who still have this outlook, but the official stance of the church repudiates that outlook.

I have read books by Protestant writers who also claim that the Catholic church is the whore of Babylon. In fact it was taught in a Baptist church here in the town where I live and they referred to the costly apparel and the gold threaded robes etc as being things condemned in the Bible.

[MaidservantX]

The Church of the Lamb is created by covenant and brings us to Christ (among other things, but let me state it simply that way). The only organization that is authorized by God to administer covenants is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

In that sense any other system of any sort cannot be (a part of) the Church of the Lamb.

Once you have covenants, you must keep them, of course. Just being baptized, but you violate the covenants, does not make one part of the Church of the Lamb. We all sin, of course, and we all need repentance, and we all have the opportunity to repent. But having the covenant, and then keeping it are both necessary.

The perception problem that we may have is that I think this scripture is talking about systems. We know very well that very good people (and we are all children of God!) are currently subject to systems that the Adversary and that men have set up (whether they are religious, political, etc). So the systems that are not the strait and narrow, ONE way, are the church of the Devil, I would say. But the PEOPLE in them aren't going to hell, and they aren't devils, and etc. The point of the scripture is to uncover those systems and to warn us, so that as CHILDREN OF GOD OF GREAT WORTH, we can see clearly the incorrect systems we may be a part of and currently be subject to, so that we can make our way to the Church of the Lamb.

To state it another way, the perception difficulty -- the work isn't done. For example, I believe that many churches, many preachers of churches (and etc etc etc), also things such as Alcoholics Anonymous -- these are all very, very good things, and I believe that Heavenly Father uses many good organizations and people, and inspires them, that are outside of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. God is leading his children to him in the way that they can best receive it. So in this sense, there could be many good things and systems happening in the world that can be considered the Church of the Lamb -- because the harvest isn't here yet on the whole! But eventually the Father's guidance for each individual will lead them to the covenants that we must make in order to return to him.

When the Savior returns for the Second Coming all of the world's systems will pass away and the only system left will be the Church of the Lamb -- but as we know, individuals will still be living who may and may not be baptized members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So again -- the work isn't done. The Church of the Lamb now? The Church of the Lamb at the Millenium? The Church of the Lamb in its exalted state after mortality is finished?

To state that the Babylon of the world is the "church of the Devil" is NOT a statement of an individual's worth. It is a statement of the conditions of oppression and other evils the world as a whole is presently in. The Father loves all of his children and will not LEAVE them in the church of the devil unless they really want to be there. He and His Son are in the process of redeeming us individually, and in the process of redeeming the world collectively.

That is how I understand it. I'm not sure I made sense here, sorry :).

[Hemidakota]

Could somebody please explain to me why there is this attitude towards Bruce R. McConkie? Did he commit some awful sin of which I am unaware? All I can recall of him is of a deeply spiritual man who knew his Saviour and was not afraid to look forward to meeting him face to face.

He knew the Savior personally.

[WillowTheWhisp]

So why are some people on here so quick to dismiss anything he said or wrote?

[Hemidakota]

Unfortunately, because of BRM's claim in Mormon Doctrine, there were a lot of members that took it that way, and may not have heard or heard about his retraction. So there still may be a few older members who still have this outlook, but the official stance of the church repudiates that outlook.

This answer comes by personal prayer. For me, he partially answered the scripture in pointing out one of many dogmas eventually come under one rule. Whether it is worldly science or gospel according to man, one will stand at its head.

Nephi talks of many churches prior to this scripture quoted. Then later, talks of one as if it was a 'collective'.

[Hemidakota]

So why are some people on here so quick to dismiss anything he said or wrote?

As it is with other great work.

I would love for those individual to stand up now and say, 'MY ELECTION IS CALLED FOR SURE.'

[WillowTheWhisp]

Did he actually 'retract' or 'elaborate on and add to'? It seems more like the latter to me. The thing is if something is wrong it doesn't stop being wrong just because we don't say anything about it. That doesn't mean that the people themselves are of rhe devil, just that their leaders can have been misled by the devil - just as I'm sure a lot of them think that we are.

[Hemidakota]

I don't know if we have a Roman Catholic member in this forum, they will tell of one last Pope by name, which will eventually fall.

I don't recall if Bruce [being personal here] did a public retraction with his MDB statement. The only problem I do see, it was not clear enough on how the Catholic Church will eventually succumb to the one and be used for his own gain.

We have a bigger problem within for our own 'wolfs' in sheep clothing. This was a major problem to those in the BOM.

[a-train]

We have a bigger problem within for our own 'wolfs' in sheep clothing. This was a major problem to those in the BOM.

You've got THAT right! The greatest problem we face today is at home. The wolves have been gathering and they continue to gather. But what they do not understand is that our LORD is a mighty and terrible God. The afflictions they bring in upon us are nothing compared to the pains they will inflict upon themselves. God help us bring them to Zion.

-a-train

[THIRDpersonviewer]

After a lot of doctrinal studying and also a fair amount of McConkie, I came to this conclusion as I happened to be reading it last night. I read 1 Nephi 11-14 straight through and it is interesting what each chapter represents. Chapter 11 is an overview of the plan of Salvation, as we know. Chapter 12 is the prophecy of his seed and their dwindling in unbelief. Chapter 13 is a prophecy of the world during the apostasy to the second coming of Christ. Chapter 14 is, in effect, prophecy of the times and its relevance to the members of the church in terms of our spiritual war. It also establishes the stewardship of John the Beloved for the prophecy's of our time.

I will focus on chapter 13 which is the first appearance of "great and abominable church." Chapter 13 completely speaks in specifics. They are listed in this fashion:

-nations and kingdoms -various groups of people on Earth

-formation of great and abominable church -Catholic Church(see below)

-waters separate seed from gentiles -Atlantic Ocean

-man finds promised land -Christopher Columbus

-oppressed leave captivity -Pilgrims leave Europe

-oppressed prosper in new land -English grow to main power

-fight mother nation -Colonists fight England

-God helps oppressed agianst enemies -Influence of God seen through founding fathers

-oppressed carry a book -Bible

-book is a record from the Jew and the fullness of gospel -word and power of God unto Salvation

-book is pure until formation of church -Nicene creed

-book then proceeds forth to all nations -Bible is spread over all Earth

-book becomes stumbling block for many -works of men confuse unlearned and results in multiple denominations

-oppressed will not completely destroy mixture of seed -Native Americans not wiped completely away

-Oppressed(gentiles) are in a state of blindness -absent of the Holy Ghost, not knowing where to turn, men are lost without a restoration of the gospel

-Lamb will be merciful unto gentiles -promise of love(his word and gifts) given to gentile

-much of the gospel comes forth by power of God -Book of Mormon translated but parts remained sealed

-writings of nephi and others to come forth -Book of Mormon from hill cumorah

-written is the gospel -truth as a standard is established

-seek to bring forth Zion and we are saved in celestial inheritance -Celestial Law given, wanting to do all righteousness for the glory of God and not personal vainglory.

-Books come forward to testify of the Lamb and his disciples -standard works and works of apostles and prophets as written under influence of the Spirit

-doctrine of Christ established -3 nephi 11

-These books become one as the Word of God -standard works

-He comes to manifest himself to Jews and gentiles -1st coming

-He comes again to manifest to gentile and Jew -2nd coming

Now I am sure if you read the part above you will have taken some offense to the labeling of the Catholic Church as the "Great and Abominable Church." What is important to remember about the scriptures is just because it says one word in one book, doesn't men that it will mean exactly the same thing in another book.(Isaiah) The account of Abraham ch.3 27-28 says:

27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

The Lord in this instance is God our Heavenly Father. I think you will agree with me though that most other instances it would reference the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, establishing that point. Let's look at the reference of "great and abominable church" in chapter 13(at least vs. 4-9). It says the founder of the church is the devil. What are the teachings of Christ...TRUTH! And ONLY truth. He does not lie, he does not create false doctrines or lead men away from salvation. Salvation is in Christ. Salvation is in truth. The devil is the father of ALL lies. He takes the opinions and interpretations of men and uses them to deceive. Exactly what happened in the Nicene Creed. What church was formed from this creed and the others. The Catholic Church. A couple of the verses state that the word was full and pure before the formation of the church.(vs.25-26) The formation of the church was in the false creeds which was based on the interpretations of men and their opinions. Certain truths were lost, most notably the nature and kind of being that God is.

So, what am I trying to say. Simply, I see where Elder McConkie was coming from. However, looking at the next chapter(14), the reference to the "great and abominable church" is the church consisting of the followers of the devil, while the church of the Lamb of God is the followers of Christ.

Now to clarify my view on the Catholic Church. I view it respectfully and hold it in no manner of condemnation. Besides all that is referenced anyways in the Book of Mormon is the formation of it. But as we know the church is an institution, whether it be by God or whether it be by man. We have the right and freedom to choose what to believe because of agency. However, Salvation comes in and only through the Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the laws, and terms, and conditions of Salvation are instituted on this Earth by the power and authority of the Holy Priesthood and by the atoning power of his great and infinite sacrifice.

We choose to believe in Christ. People who believe in Christ are looking for His church. They are looking for the church, or institution, that teaches of Christ and administers His blessings and ordinances to us. There is no condemnation in any way, shape or form for those believing in a false church, if they innocently believe it to be true. However there is condemnation if the believer knows it not to be true and continues to believe in that non-truth. It is a sin against the light. But to what degree? We don't know. Only Jesus Christ, who has commanded us not to be the judge of others, knows.

I don't say this to throw a sucker punch or a blindsided hit. I just say it to present another view that is entirely plausible.

[PastorBob]

This is a topic often discussed, and insisted upon with my congregation.

Let us turn to 2nd Corinthians:

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

In traditionalist satanism, to obtain the second degree, the satanist must have obtained a good reputation as a pious Christian, and for their third, they must have obtained a position of leadership. It does not matter which church it is especially; they prefer the most common one in the area. Only the teenage dabblers actually act rebellious, and show according behavior - the true satanist is invariably well groomed, community respected, and makes a point of his good works being known - a pretty face is their obession, and their weakness to ensure all around them see them as a good person. See Jesus's words about whitened seplechures, which are clean without, but filthy within.

They use deceit to guide those around them in the same way the serpent in the garden of Eden did, first, by teaching them to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (conscience) then putting on a fig leaf apron (ego), which is the common man's way of entering into a pact. The outer rite is different, but the result is quite identical, the larger the ego adopted to fend off conscience, the more material rewards, position, a good wife, a good reputation, yet the same afterlife as one who ceremonially entered into a pact with the devil, like David Bowie, or Gene Simmons.

Their key to their survival and secrecy is hypocrisy, pushed to the furthest extent. They make it a point to know the scriptures better than their enemies, the servants of Christ, and to try and outdo them at acts of charity, etc, so that they are never suspected if their crimes are uncovered.

If you read verse 15 of 2nd Corinthians, you will note that their end shall be according to their works; over the past 20 years, I have noticed that cancer and/or an accident is common.

It is perfectly impossible to commit sin without the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil - the evil man's conscience tells him that he is weak, that he has been tricked, that he has not stolen enough, raped enough, hurt enough, rebelled enough. And the good man is tormented by his telling him that he has not done enough, helped enough, been humble enough, etc. If we look at the root words from which conscience is derived, co (dual), and science, we get the science of duality, or voice of satan, which was derived from the latin "diable," or devil. One must by-and-by replace it with compassion as our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ taught us, or spit out the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, to partake of the tree of life, or unity.

The church of satan aims at making someone fight with the branches of evil while totally ignoring the root cause, and of course, it turns into a life-long battle that cannot be won, because they are ignoring the root from which the evil is really springing. It is like treating a symptom and ignoring the disease.

They like to get you to attempt to suppress things, so that they gather strength and overwhelm you with a problem.

We tend to be distracted by worldly issues and try and pretend that the church of satan does not exist, but it most assuredly does, and must be avoided.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

[spiritseeker]

Perhaps I am naive but this whole thread seems pretty simple to me. There is only one church which is in possesion of the priesthood and the saving ordinances of God. It was restored to earth by a Prophet of God in the early 1800's. Namely The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints..... And that's the truth and I think it's sad that people who speak the truth boldly such as BRM are singled out for speaking the truth. What has become of the boldness of the Saints??? As one who has come out of the world, I know of the need for the Saints to preach this gospel boldly... they need to hear it and we need to speak it. Don't sugarcoat it because to me that's a sign of the church of the devil!