Some questions for Mormons

[xanmad33]

No matter how hard one tries to read between the lines of scripture, these claims can never be supported.

Honey, Look. You are right. These ideas don't come directly from the Bible. They come from revelation. Which I think lots of folks are trying to explain is one of the foundations of our faith.

This is precisely the reason why I have been asking all the questions I have with regard to HOW DO YOU KNOW.

Nobody here has answered the questions I outlined a few posts ago with regard to your prophet. What is the litmuss test you hold him to? If No books are infallable words from God, how do you know it is in fact God your prophet is speaking to? From whom does he derive his power of authority? If you say God, then aren't you trusting a MAN's word?

We love the Bible. But it is the revelation/testimony about the truthfulness of the Bible and the Savior that is most important to a Latter-day Saint. You yourself said that God is something that we can't really understand... our wee little brains. So as far as you know, we could be right. We argue that God is something we can understand... because we are literally like him.

Why do you love the Bible if you believe the opposite of what the Bible teaches?

We have already established you believe the Bible is corrupt, as we also established you likewise believe your doctrinal texts to be corrupted by man, I understand this logic, which I have said already, my point has repeatedly been, How do you know your prophet (who is also a man) is truly hearing from God?

On a side note, I think it's worth mentioning that what you have written in regard to your beliefs about progression is the same thing Satan believed....

Isaiah 14:12-14 - "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH."

We are children of God and that just as human children grow into adults, if we are obedient to eternal law, we will receive all that the Father has. Becoming a God sounds scary.... like we are exalting ourselves. It is not really that. We believe in progression and that we can become a God just like a child becomes an adult. Godhood in this sense is like spiritual maturity. But having said that, Our Beloved Father in Heaven will always be our Father. We could never exceed him. I know that these concepts are disturbing to the Christian world. I don't expect them to be easy concepts to accept. But, I do know that believing that accepting Christ and then becoming saved and then spending the rest of earth life and the eternities singing praises seems pretty meaningless to me. Worshiping God is an important concept. But to what end? God is already perfect and glorious. He has no need of my worship. The process of worshipping is an exercise for the discipline and education of the children of men.

Wow, i'm blown away at these statements, I cannot believe you would ever claim to believe in the Bible! I don't mean to be offensive, it's just that this is completely opposed to everything about the Bible.

And if a future afterlife of singing cumbya in heaven, is not your definition of excitement, I'm sure it's not God's either. We are here to learn to rule and reign with him through eternity and to be trusted with the gifts he wants to give us.

When you look around you at the vastness of creation, and you consider (the small amount your mind CAN POSSIBLY consider) that awesome, marvelous creation of God....When you consider the creativity he has blessed us with, how can you possibly think we will get to heaven and sit up on clouds all day?

The Bible doesn't specifically detail what we will be doing in heaven, I guess because we will know in God's due time. But I can assure you based on what he has already done and given us we wont be bored

We are here to learn.... to make our mistakes in hopes that we will become wiser. And because of our Savior, we can literally overcome sin and death and become resurrected and have perfect a body just the same as the Lord's. Gaining a resurrected body is part of our inheritance. That blessing will come to every soul who was born on the earth regardless of faith. Why else is there good news? Why else would Christ return to show his body to the twelve and let them feel the prints in his hands and feet? The spiritual blessings of exaltation will only come to those who obey eternal law and who progress in all the Christ-like nature. In this way, each will be judged fairly on the heart, and given a just reward.

Because of our savior, sin and death cannot touch us. We ourselves cannot overcome sin, we needed our savior for that. Because he died we are made clean. We are saved by his grace, and it's a gift.

Everyone falls short of the glory of God. Everyone.

There is no one worthy apart from Christ.

If there was a way for you to save yourself by doing good works, CHRIST DIED IN VAIN!

Why do you worship Jesus?

Is he more important than Joseph Smith?

Was his death and atonement for our sins at the cross enough?

Again, if you want to understand the mind of a mormon, you must understand that we rely on revelation to discover the mysteries of God. And we believe in progression.

Precisely the point I have been trying to get to the bottom of for days

Please tell me how you know your revelation is from God. What is the litmiss test?

[Hemidakota]

What religious belief are you?

[skalenfehl]

This is precisely the reason why I have been asking all the questions I have with regard to HOW DO YOU KNOW.

Nobody here has answered the questions I outlined a few posts ago with regard to your prophet. What is the litmuss test you hold him to? If No books are infallable words from God, how do you know it is in fact God your prophet is speaking to? From whom does he derive his power of authority? If you say God, then aren't you trusting a MAN's word?

I did answer how we know. Twice. My answers are buried. Just thought I'd point that out. I hesitate to answer a third time. But you're swamped with many questions and answers too.

[a-train]

xan,

You'd probably be best served if you made specific threads for more specific questions.

-a-train

[Hemidakota]

List your religious preference. It helps.

Being a former Roman Catholic, I can attest to those members on how they think. lol

[xanmad33]

I did answer how we know. Twice. My answers are buried. Just thought I'd point that out. I hesitate to answer a third time. But you're swamped with many questions and answers too.

can you please repost it? I think I missed it, thanks!

and I stated earlier, I am a Christian, I also posted my church's statement of faith with regard to Jesus.

[Misshalfway]

Ok. This HAS been a long thread. ANd you should be exhausted. So, here is a nice cold soda and a foot stool to rest.

In your last answer to me, I am not sure that we aren't saying the same thing. Perhaps using different words. I worry that perhaps you are misunderstanding what has been said at least in part. We don't believe the bible to be corrupt. I think that might be a gross exaggeration. We love the book. Follow its words. Now.... your interpretation and ours might differ. We just understand the same passages of scripture differently. Ok?

Let's talk about how we know. It is all about gifts of the spirit. Ok. What do you know about the first vision? Joseph Smith at age 14 wanting to know which church was true,read the bible which encouraged him to pray and so he went into a grove of trees and prayed. When he prayed a light came out of heaven and rested on him. In the light he saw two personages who identified themselves as God the Father and Jesus the son. Have you read about this? This is revelation. Visions, dreams, spiritual manifestations, promptings, spiritual witness of truth. Joseph, just like Moses and others, received this and other revelations. This is why we believe God is flesh and bone. Because he saw God face to face. This is why we believe God and Jesus are separate. He saw them with his own eyes. They introduced themselves and called him by name. This story is why we believe the apostacy took place and that the authentic church of Jesus needed to be restored.

The question for the rest of us, is whether or not Joseph actually saw what he says he saw. I have questioned this myself. I have prayed about it. Studied. Asked God to tell me the truth. God has told me that it is indeed true. That is my personal revelation. I have personal revelation about lots of gospel subjects. This is how I know. This is how all of us know! We believe the bible and follow it. But we let the spirit help us interpret it. And for the rest of God's mysteries that are not contained in the Bible, we have looked to God. He calls prophets. Joseph was one of them. His revelations for our day, included the Book of Mormon. Just like Moses and the tablets -- Revelation for his day. He went up to the mountain, talked to the Lord and came back with what his people needed. Joseph did the same in this modern day. This is the foundation of our position and our beliefs. We believe God wants us to ask him questions. And that God will send his Spirit to teach us the truth of all things. (john 14:26) God calls a new prophet and twelve apostles just like he did the first time around. He wants us to have relevant information for the concerns and problems of today.

OK?? Does that help? All this other stuff about God's and etc. That is deeper doctrine. It comes from years of mormon scholars and leaders who asked questions of God and kept asking questions. Some got some answers. Some speculate and make logical conclusions. Answers that would most certainly anger and confuse most religions. Joseph found that out right away. You can pray. You can receive answers too. In fact, we invite you to read the BofM. Study the first vision of Joseph and pray with a broken heart and contrite spirit to know if it is true or not. We don't beat you over the head with it and expect you to just know or fall in line with blind faith. It is all about church wide revelation and personal revelation. Every piece of spiritual knowledge, truth about God, the world, etc. comes this way.

[skalenfehl]

Here is but one of my replies. We know our prophet is a man, but he is also called of God as was Moses, Noah, Isaiah, etc.

xanmad, I did already answer those questions and it is the same way that the early saints in the New Testament knew and understood the apostles from their epistles, but even many had a difficult time recognizing it, even as far back as the days of Noah. How could they really have known that Noah was a man of God until it was too late? How did they know Moses was a true prophet until they were delivered from Egypt? Throughout biblical history the prophets were rebuked, ridiculed, rejected, killed, cast out of their cities and imprisoned.

Even the learned men and doctors of the law rejected Christ in the midst of miracles being performed before their very eyes! What could be more sufficient than the fruits that they witnessed? I suspect that my answer wasn't enough and it won't be. Only those humble enough to recognize Christ's divinity by the Holy Ghost knew that the miracles they witnessed were heaven sent. Only through humble prayer to God directly will you ever know which of the churches is His true church and where His authority is found to receive direct revelation from Him and the authority to baptize in His name unto salvation. You are essentially seeking after a sign. We cannot give it to you. It isn't ours to give. But we have truly being trying to show you the way to find out.

You can know just the way people have known throughout scriptural history whether or not a man is called of God or if he be a "false prophet". You inquire of the Lord as people in the scriptures have inquired and you will know because the Lord will reveal it to you through the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. That is the only way that the Lord has promised we can know. That is how I know.

[xanmad33]

Hi Xanmad..your problem is you are jumpping over some steps here... be careful or you loose the balance...

You believe in God that is good, we do to. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost? We dont say God the Father, God Jeus, God HG.... As it is Father who is God Allmighty. You should learn the basics first...

Thanks for the "education" but I thought I had already learned the basics?

Have you read all my other posts?

What we in all simplicity believe is written in our scriptures. What prophets or anyone said IS NOT DOCTORINE

Really?!!!!

So the prophet really doesn't hear from God?

I don't understand??? That seems to be the complete opposite of what others here have been telling me? hmm...

unless it can be found in our scriptures. We are allowed to think to ponder, to dream... to develope. Our religion is not death but living. People who are brave and have a great understanding make it live, not alter but live. Dont worry about what someone said unless you find it in the scriptures. And if you find it in the scriptures....

Is D&C considered doctrine? What about Pearl of great price?

and if I'm understanding correctly here, what you are essentially saying is that- what is preached or said out of your prophets mouth or from the pulpet, is not considered sound doctrines? hmm....

The fall for trinity in my opinion is that I dont think Jesus called to himself when he was hanging on the cross and said Eli Eli lama sabaktani... neither did He pary for himself to Himself but God the Father, who was in the heven and sitl is.

here is an interesting take on that:

First of all, Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1 which begins with, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?". Jesus quoted this Psalm in order to draw attention to it and the fact that He was fulfilling it there on the cross. Consider verses 11-18 in Psalm 22:

Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help.12 Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me. 13 They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It is melted within me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And Thou dost lay me in the dust of death. 16 For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; 18 They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.

The term 'dogs' was used by the Jews to refer to Gentiles (cf. Matt. 15:21-28). His heart has melted within Him (v. 14). During the crucifixion process, the blood loss causes the heart to beat harder and harder and become extremely fatigued. Dehydration occurs (v. 15). Verses 16b-18 speak of piercing His hands and feet and dividing his clothing by casting lots. This is exactly what happen as described in Matt. 27:35.

Psalm 22 was written about 600 years before Christ was born. At that time, crucifixion had not yet been invented. Actually, the Phoenician's developed it and Rome borrowed the agonizing means of execution from them. So, when Rome ruled over Israel, it became the Roman means of capital punishment imposed upon the Jews whose biblical means of execution was stoning. Nevertheless, Jesus is pointing to the scriptures to substantiate His messianic mission.

About mistakes or wrong translations, lost parts... My grandfather was in the translation comedy of the bible in to my language... It is amazing to read all teh discusitons of words which should be used and where and how much they.. just a word can alter the menaing. I often ahve a bible i 3 languages in front of me ... and EACH and evey one of them has used a word that has a completely diferent meaning. OH I just red something in those 3 and as I red the KJV...I finally undertood WHY the LDS believe as they do in that... but unfortunately I cant remember what it was... but the bible is FULL of such things. Anyway the KJV IS SAID to be the best (not a doctorine though). So I think that is great.. even my bible in my language is not as accurate as the KJV!

I also noticed that they left out and cahnged some words in the latest translation, which turns the meaning completely... and not to favour of LDS... Also the part where theybt alk about babtizing the death has been under discusition to take away... just imagine how easy it then is to say that there is NO mentoining of babtizing for the death in the Bible... of course not as it is taken away...

I have already adressed this in past posts, bottom line is it is all speculation... oh and touche! The same can be said of the reliability of the BOM, D&C, ETC. Your entire religion is run on the word of men, is it not?

Take a step at the time... dont hurry and ty to understand it all right away, dont leap over the steps... I was a protestant before, now I understand the Bible better.

Well you seem to consider yourself quite the scholar

Thanks for the advice, and the backhanded insult.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

No. God KNOWS the heart, you cannot fool him.

With the logic you just presented here, Christ died in vain.

If it was not enough, why did he die?

If salvation was something to be earned, then why did Christ come?

He is the namesake of your church, but what did he do for that honor?

Good works are a result of grace, not a way to achieve it (Gal. 5:22-23 and Eph. 2). One doesn't earn or pay for a gift. That grace however is not a license to sin, those who truly love God will want to please Him.

Salvation comes only by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), it is not based on our righteous works (Titus 3:3-5). If we could attain salvation by obeying the law, then Christ dieath was in vain (Galatians 2:21). We can be righteous before God only on the basis of the righteousness of Christ. Though Christ was without sin, he paid the penalty due our sin so that we would be declared righteous before God (2 Corinthians 5:21, Ephesians 2:1-5).

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" (Rom. 10:4).

"I do not frustrate the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly" (Gal. 2:21).

"He saved us not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to his mercy" (Titus 3:5).

Because with our works, it still is not enough. We have done everything we can do then grace will make up the rest. We are given grace without works but to receive the FULL benefits, we have to do some work on our part. Grace is only given to those who love Him.

What did He do to earn the name of our Church. He is the Son of God! He lives! He founded this Church for saving souls! He is the Redeemer who would give his grace to all who will accept it. We SHOW we accept it by works and faith. Faith without works is dead.(James 2:17) Faith is believing in things hoped for but not seen.

Your scriptures contradict. Salvation comes only by grace THROUGH faith. Grace is received after faith. Faith is a belief in things hoped for but not seen.

We are saved by mercy. To RECEIVE ALL of His mercy, we have to do our part. Salvation is only part of mercy. Mercy consists of blessings and gifts and salvation among other things. However the full blessings come by obedience to God's laws.

I WILL NOT receive the blessings if I go out and sin. God cannot give me blessings if I go out and lie and cheat and steal. That is against His Laws.

Now, some of these blessings are given when we leave this life. They are given to us based upon the merits of our living here. I testify that this is true. For these blessings, we believe that there are different levels, or degrees, of Salvation. 1 Corinthians 15:35-41

Here is a scripture from the Book of Mormon, it should be somewhere in the Bible(by principle) too.

Mosiah 13:25-32

25 And it came to pass that after Abinadi had made an end of these sayings that he said unto them: Have ye taught this people that they should observe to do all these things for to keep these commandments?

26 I say unto you, Nay; for if ye had, the Lord would not have caused me to come forth and to prophesy evil concerning this people.

27 And now ye have said that salvation cometh by the law of Moses. I say unto you that it is expedient that ye should keep the law of Moses as yet; but I say unto you, that the time shall come when it shall no more be expedient to keep the law of Moses.

28 And moreover, I say unto you, that salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses.

29 And now I say unto you that it was expedient that there should be a law given to the children of Israel, yea, even a very strict law; for they were a stiffnecked people, quick to do iniquity, and slow to remember the Lord their God;

30 Therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.

31 But behold, I say unto you, that all these things were types of things to come.

32 And now, did they understand the law? I say unto you, Nay, they did not all understand the law; and this because of the hardness of their hearts; for they understood not that there could not any man be saved except it were through the redemption of God.

Where do you believe you came from before you came into this Earth?

[skalenfehl]

I just wanted to take a moment to express my appreciation for your patience, xanmad, and for spending so much of your free time to share your beliefs here and listen to us sharing ours as well. I wish it wasn't so confusing to hear one of say one thing and another of us say something else. We are all at different levels of understanding and try to set things straight.

[xanmad33]

Because with our works, it still is not enough. We have done everything we can do then grace will make up the rest. We are given grace without works but to receive the FULL benefits, we have to do some work on our part. Grace is only given to those who love Him.

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

What did He do to earn the name of our Church. He is the Son of God! He lives! He founded this Church for saving souls! He is the Redeemer who would give his grace to all who will accept it. We SHOW we accept it by works and faith. Faith without works is dead.(James 2:17) Faith is believing in things hoped for but not seen.

By adding works to faith you destroy the very essence of grace, for Romans 11:6 tells us that we are saved by grace, "and if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

Grace is unmerited - a free gift of God - and everyone knows that a gift cannot be bought otherwise it is no longer a gift.

Your scriptures contradict. Salvation comes only by grace THROUGH faith. Grace is received after faith. Faith is a belief in things hoped for but not seen.

What was contradictory?

We are saved by mercy. To RECEIVE ALL of His mercy, we have to do our part. Salvation is only part of mercy. Mercy consists of blessings and gifts and salvation among other things. However the full blessings come by obedience to God's laws.

again, this is unbiblical

I WILL NOT receive the blessings if I go out and sin. God cannot give me blessings if I go out and lie and cheat and steal. That is against His Laws.

Now, some of these blessings are given when we leave this life. They are given to us based upon the merits of our living here. I testify that this is true. For these blessings, we believe that there are different levels, or degrees, of Salvation. 1 Corinthians 15:35-41

I do agree that we can be blessed for how we live our lives, but Salvation is not contingint on any good works we do worthy of a blessing.

Here is a scripture from the Book of Mormon, it should be somewhere in the Bible(by principle) too.

Mosiah 13:25-32

25 And it came to pass that after Abinadi had made an end of these sayings that he said unto them: Have ye taught this people that they should observe to do all these things for to keep these commandments?

26 I say unto you, Nay; for if ye had, the Lord would not have caused me to come forth and to prophesy evil concerning this people.

27 And now ye have said that salvation cometh by the law of Moses. I say unto you that it is expedient that ye should keep the law of Moses as yet; but I say unto you, that the time shall come when it shall no more be expedient to keep the law of Moses.

28 And moreover, I say unto you, that salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses.

29 And now I say unto you that it was expedient that there should be a law given to the children of Israel, yea, even a very strict law; for they were a stiffnecked people, quick to do iniquity, and slow to remember the Lord their God;

30 Therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.

31 But behold, I say unto you, that all these things were types of things to come.

32 And now, did they understand the law? I say unto you, Nay, they did not all understand the law; and this because of the hardness of their hearts; for they understood not that there could not any man be saved except it were through the redemption of God.

All I can submit to you is what the Bible teaches:

Justification is the work of God where the righteousness of Jesus is reckoned to the sinner so the sinner is declared by God as being righteous under the Law (Rom. 4:3; 5:1,9; Gal. 2:16; 3:11). This righteousness is not earned or retained by any effort of the saved. Justification is an instantaneous occurrence with the result being eternal life. It is based completely and solely upon Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and is received by faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9). No works are necessary whatsoever to obtain justification. Otherwise, it is not a gift (Rom. 6:23). Therefore, we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1).

James 2:24, not by faith alone

The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us to not show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.

James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that that type of faith isn't much different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that is words followed by actions. He writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.

In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20).

Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul uses to support the teaching of justification by faith in Rom. 4:3. James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example.

Where do you believe you came from before you came into this Earth?

I did not exist. God created everything from nothing.

[xanmad33]

Here is but one of my replies. We know our prophet is a man, but he is also called of God as was Moses, Noah, Isaiah, etc.

You can know just the way people have known throughout scriptural history whether or not a man is called of God or if he be a "false prophet". You inquire of the Lord as people in the scriptures have inquired and you will know because the Lord will reveal it to you through the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. That is the only way that the Lord has promised we can know. That is how I know.

Where does it say that in the Bible?

Again, I must implore you, how do you really know? What is the litmiss test?

There are warnings set forth by the Bible and nowhere does the Bible ever direct the believing Christian to take any religious book and pray about the truthfulness of its contents. While we are told to ask God for wisdom (James 1:5), the clear Biblical directive and pattern to follow includes more than this:

***"do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John. 4:1).

***"If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing" (1 Tim. 6:3-4).

***"Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves" (2 Cor. 13:5).

***"you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false" (Rev. 2:2).

***"Prove all things, hold fast that which is good" (1 Thess. 5:21).

Not every self-proclaimed prophet is from God; many present a false gospel:

**"You are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel... even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!" (Gal. 1:6-8).

"if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted... (2 Cor. 11:4).

**"Thus says the LORD of hosts, Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you. They are leading you into futility; They speak a vision of their own imagination, not from the mouth of the LORD" (Jer. 23:16).

Thank you for being patient with me also, you are a very kind person and I appreciate all your information :)

[a-train]

BUMP

Let us take one of those quotes: 'God is an exalted man...our Father in Heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man...The Prophet [Joseph Smith] taught that our Father had a Father and so on...promises are made to us that we may become like him.'

Is Jesus NOT our Father in Heaven?

Is He not exalted?

Did He not live on this earth in every way a man?

Did He not pass through life and death?

Does He not have a Father in Heaven like us?

Do we not have any promise from Him that we may become like Him?

Are not these questions answered plainly in the Bible?

And, just so we are perfectly clear, God (Jesus) has a body of flesh and bone, correct?

Please just answer my questions from your point of view. I know very well how Joseph Smith and LDS leaders answer these questions.

-a-train

[Guest Leeanntheone]

My dear Xanmad33,

I want to thank you for you insightful post. Wow! you really know what your talking about. I see the truth in what you say. I speak for my self when I say when you first spoke I thought here we go again, an other christian trying to convert us. But when I humbled myself and asked my self if what you were saying was true all I could say is there it is in black and white. I read what you said over and over and all I can say is thank you for opening my eyes. Keep going girl. Maybe someone else will humble themselves and see what your saying is the truth.

Leeann Daniels

[xanmad33]

My dear Xanmad33,

I want to thank you for you insightful post. Wow! you really know what your talking about. I see the truth in what you say. I speak for my self when I say when you first spoke I thought here we go again, an other christian trying to convert us. But when I humbled myself and asked my self if what you were saying was true all I could say is there it is in black and white. I read what you said over and over and all I can say is thank you for opening my eyes. Keep going girl. Maybe someone else will humble themselves and see what your saying is the truth.

Leeann Daniels

[email protected]

Leeann, I am truly humbled that you have seen the Lord in something I have written.

You brought me to tears reading that and I want to thank you for your kind words, I will be praying for you tonight! Keep in his Word!

[Guest Leeanntheone]

111

[xanmad33]

BUMP

Let us take one of those quotes: 'God is an exalted man...our Father in Heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man...The Prophet [Joseph Smith] taught that our Father had a Father and so on...promises are made to us that we may become like him.'

Is Jesus NOT our Father in Heaven?

Is He not exalted?

Did He not live on this earth in every way a man?

Did He not pass through life and death?

Does He not have a Father in Heaven like us?

Do we not have any promise from Him that we may become like Him?

Are not these questions answered plainly in the Bible?

And, just so we are perfectly clear, God (Jesus) has a body of flesh and bone, correct?

Please just answer my questions from your point of view. I know very well how Joseph Smith and LDS leaders answer these questions.

-a-train

A-train, I appreciate your questions, but they are misleading to say the least.

The reason I answer these questions using your own scripture, is to illistrate the completely opposing doctrines we both hold with regard to WHO the person we both call "Christ" even is.

If you would like to make a statement, that might fair better.

While we are asking questions, I have a few if you don't mind...

1.) Why does the LDS Church teach that Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers when both the first chapter of John and Colossians teach that Jesus is the Creator of all things, including Lucifer?

2.)Why did Bruce McConkie write that a man may commit a sin so grievous that it will place him beyond the atoning blood of Christ (Mormon Doctrine, 1979, p.93) when the Bible says that the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7)?

3.)If Gods are individuals who have passed through an earth life to attain Godhood, how is it according to Mormon doctrine, that one person of the Trinity (Jesus Christ) was God before He received a body or passed through earth life?

4.) If God said, “Is there a God beside me? Yea, there is no God; I know not any”. How can there be Gods who are Elohim’s ancestors? Surely an all-knowing God would know this and wouldn’t speak falsehoods. (See Isa. 44:8 and Journal of Discourses Vol. 1, pg. 123

5.)If Jesus was conceived as a result of a physical union between God and Mary, how was Jesus born of a virgin? (Journal of Discourses Vol. 1, page 50

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the only giver of salvation and that no man cometh unto the Father but by Him (John 3:16 & John 17:6).

The Jesus of Mormonism claims no such authority.

Mormonism teaches that in order to be saved on must believe in Joseph Smith, their founder, as well as belief in Jesus

In his book Doctrines of Salvation, 1:189, Joseph Fielding Smith proclaims, "NO SALVATION WITHOUT ACCEPTING JOSEPH SMITH". Brigham Young said, "From the day the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, Junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are." He also said, "No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of god without the consent of Joseph Smith" (Journal of Discourses, 7:289).

My reacurring question is, what is the true importance of Jesus in Mormonism?

According to what I have read here already, His work on the cross was not enough to save us. He is not the one and only God.

The Jesus of the Bible created all things, but according to Mormonism he was helped by many when creating the earth, including the help of Joseph Smith. "Michael or Adam was one of these. Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Peter, James and John, Joseph Smith, and many other noble and great ones played a part in the great creative enterprise.(Mormon Doctrine, page 169, )

Mormon Doctrine states, "Christ was begotten by an immortal father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers." (p. 547)

Joseph Fielding Smith, tenth President and Prophet of the Mormon Church claimed, "Christ not begotten of Holy Ghost...He was not born without the aid of Man and that Man was God!" (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:18).

None of this can be reconciled with the Biblical Jesus. None of it.

So, answering your questions become impossible because of the very serious implications of even the nature of God.

[skalenfehl]

xanman, the litmus test that you require is not directly found in the Bible, only inferred and very easily (mis)interpreted. However, another litmus test for determining which church is true is found throughout the Bible.

I have a list of scriptures that establish the characteristics and elements of Christ's true church, including the fact that it will be restored after an apostacy, must have apostles and prophets (Eph 2:19-20), must claim divine authority, must perform baptism and and bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands unto salvation, must receive revelation from God, and the list goes on. I'm not inclined to start another list, because I am sure it will lead to another round of interpretation.

Indeed there can be false prophets but there is also one true prophet. Just as there were false prophets in the Bible there were true prophets. The litmus test that the humble of the children of Israel used is the same that we use now and that is through personal revelation.

Matt. 16: 17

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Alas we remain on opposite sides of the fence. If you do not or cannot believe our words, then believe in our fruits. By our fruits you will know us. Best wishes.

[Flyonthewall]

I will let a-train answer the questions you directed at him, and I hope I'm not sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong, but I'd like to give my 2 cents worth.

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the only giver of salvation and that no man cometh unto the Father but by Him (John 3:16 & John 17:6).

The Jesus of Mormonism claims no such authority.

Let me respond to that with a passage from the BofMormon:

Mosiah 5: 8

8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.

Christ is the author of our salvaiton.

Mormonism teaches that in order to be saved on must believe in Joseph Smith, their founder, as well as belief in Jesus

In his book Doctrines of Salvation, 1:189, Joseph Fielding Smith proclaims, "NO SALVATION WITHOUT ACCEPTING JOSEPH SMITH". Brigham Young said, "From the day the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, Junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are." He also said, "No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of god without the consent of Joseph Smith" (Journal of Discourses, 7:289).

Would you feel the same if it was said "no salvation without accepting Moses" or Noah, or Elijah or John the Baptist?

Though The Journal of Discourses do contain doctrine, they also contain opinion. Sometimes hyperbole is used to convey a point. The point being that we believe that Joseph Smith opened this dispensation and presides over it...just like Adam presided over the first dispensation, Noah over his, Abraham over his, etc. etc.

My reacurring question is, what is the true importance of Jesus in Mormonism?

According to what I have read here already, His work on the cross was not enough to save us.

We believe there is no other name under heaven whereby man may be saved. We also believe that the Garden of Gethsemene was start of His suffering for sin, and continued until He said "It is finished" while on the cross. We take nothing away from the cross.

He is not the one and only God.

The Jesus of the Bible created all things, but according to Mormonism he was helped by many when creating the earth, including the help of Joseph Smith. "Michael or Adam was one of these. Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Peter, James and John, Joseph Smith, and many other noble and great ones played a part in the great creative enterprise.(Mormon Doctrine, page 169, )

We believe in 3 separate personages in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, each being a G_d, and one in purpose, that make up the Godhead.

We believe Jesus was the Creator of all things under the direction of the Father. There were others that did help, but that takes nothing away from Christ as Creator.

Mormon Doctrine states, "Christ was begotten by an immortal father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers." (p. 547)

No one claims to know the mechanics of it all. We believe that G_d works through natural means to accomplish His purposes. At the time this statement was stated, there was only oone way to concieve a child. Today, we know from modern science that sex is not required for conception, and if we know that with what little science we have, there must be other ways the Lord knows.

Joseph Fielding Smith, tenth President and Prophet of the Mormon Church claimed, "Christ not begotten of Holy Ghost...He was not born without the aid of Man and that Man was God!" (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:18).

I am not familiar with that quote and what context it is given so I won't comment on it. I will tell you that there are many other quotes from Prophets that show that we believe Jesus to be the only Begotten of the Father, conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost. The power of the Holy Ghost is indeed a mystery.

None of this can be reconciled with the Biblical Jesus. None of it.

So, answering your questions become impossible because of the very serious implications of even the nature of God.

We reconcile it with the Bible very well, it is your interpretation of the Bible that doesn't seem to be able to reconcile it, but that is understandable, you are not coming from the same place as us.

[skalenfehl]

Leeanntheone, I moved your post to the General discussion forum. Let the admin. know if you need any further technical help. :)

[WillowTheWhisp]

All I can submit to you is what the Bible teaches:

Justification is the work of God where the righteousness of Jesus is reckoned to the sinner so the sinner is declared by God as being righteous under the Law (Rom. 4:3; 5:1,9; Gal. 2:16; 3:11). This righteousness is not earned or retained by any effort of the saved. Justification is an instantaneous occurrence with the result being eternal life. It is based completely and solely upon Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and is received by faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9). No works are necessary whatsoever to obtain justification. Otherwise, it is not a gift (Rom. 6:23). Therefore, we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1).

Yes indeed Christ's sacrifice on our behalf was a gift but we cannot be worthy of that gift if we do not live worthily. We cannot just expect to continue to sin and everything will be hunky dory because Christ died for our sins.

Read Jeremiah 14: 10-12. The Lord was pretty miffed with those people. It's the same with us. If we expect to receive the blessings of salvation then we need to live the way the Lord asks us to live and do the things he asks us to do. It isn't a case of earning a place in Heaven by working for it, it's more a case of not throwing the gift back in his face and ignoring the Commandments.

[Brother Dorsey]

I just love it when someone comes here asking us what we believe and then commences to tell us what we believe. I've been reading this forum for 3 days now and I am surprised that the mods haven't close it yet....

To xan.....don't you know you're in a losing situation? You'll never "convert" or cause a "Mormon" to abandon the truth. And here's why.....

You have the Bible, compiled 300 years after Christ died by a bunch of hand picked religious figures from a pagan Roman emperor and then added to with their creedal interpretations of scripture to fit the political climate. Then through the ages (1700 years or so) of translations etc. you have the KJV of the Holy Bible along with those same ancient creedal interpretations adopted by many "different" Christian churches.

We have the Holy Bible (less those creedal interpretations) AND we have the further light and knowledge the Lord promised us in the BOM, D&C, POGP and continual revelation from God by a living Prophet.

But, you and the rest of evangelical Christendom want us to use your ancient creedal interpretations of the Bible to measure the truthfulness of what we believe.

WE DON"T NEED TO!

The Bible and the Book of Mormon fit together like a glove. The Book of Mormon and modern revelation clarify and restore simple truths in the Bible.

You can bring up all the old anti-Mormon arguments, you can set forth your creedal doctrine, you can quote, miss quote and completely take out of context LDS General Authorities all day long. But you will never convince a member of the Lords church that what we know to be true is wrong because we have been given an absolute witness of it from the Spirit of God himself.

The funny thing is we understand your faith fairly well as a lot of us have been where you are and a lot of what you believe we believe. However, I can honestly say that you will never understand or accept our faith unless you yourself receive witness of the truth through the Spirit as we have....and then again if that happened you'd be asking for Baptism.

God Bless

[Hemidakota]

can you please repost it? I think I missed it, thanks!

and I stated earlier, I am a Christian, I also posted my church's statement of faith with regard to Jesus.

General vague statement. Do you go to church?

[xanmad33]

I just love it when someone comes here asking us what we believe and then commences to tell us what we believe. I've been reading this forum for 3 days now and I am surprised that the mods haven't close it yet....

To xan.....don't you know you're in a losing situation? You'll never "convert" or cause a "Mormon" to abandon the truth. And here's why.....

You have the Bible, compiled 300 years after Christ died by a bunch of hand picked religious figures from a pagan Roman emperor and then added to with their creedal interpretations of scripture to fit the political climate. Then through the ages (1700 years or so) of translations etc. you have the KJV of the Holy Bible along with those same ancient creedal interpretations adopted by many "different" Christian churches.

We have the Holy Bible (less those creedal interpretations) AND we have the further light and knowledge the Lord promised us in the BOM, D&C, POGP and continual revelation from God by a living Prophet.

But, you and the rest of evangelical Christendom want us to use your ancient creedal interpretations of the Bible to measure the truthfulness of what we believe.

WE DON"T NEED TO!

The Bible and the Book of Mormon fit together like a glove. The Book of Mormon and modern revelation clarify and restore simple truths in the Bible.

You can bring up all the old anti-Mormon arguments, you can set forth your creedal doctrine, you can quote, miss quote and completely take out of context LDS General Authorities all day long. But you will never convince a member of the Lords church that what we know to be true is wrong because we have been given an absolute witness of it from the Spirit of God himself.

The funny thing is we understand your faith fairly well as a lot of us have been where you are and a lot of what you believe we believe. However, I can honestly say that you will never understand or accept our faith unless you yourself receive witness of the truth through the Spirit as we have....and then again if that happened you'd be asking for Baptism.

God Bless

I'm sorry you feel such anger at me, it truly makes me sad to have made someone feel this way.

I have quoted many things that LDS doctrine or prophets have said becasue of their relavancy in my questions, in an effort to understand where you are getting your absolute truth from.

You have stated your case against the Bible, I disagree 100% but that it fine, we can agreeably disagree, however, I have continuously pointed out that the same can and HAS been said (even in this thread by Mormons) of the BOM, D&C, J&D, Pearl of Great Price, and even your prophets!

What is the reliable way you know anything to be true?

You say your prophet hears from God, and that you know you need a prophet becasue the doctrinal books say as much, but I am challenging you, using your own reason, how do you know that if everything that you have accused the Bible of could be said of your own? The countless alterations to the Book of Mormon as mostly grammatical fixes while at the same time it blasts Christians on charges that the Bible is flawed because of its many translations. It's complete hypocrisy. What's more, major portions of the Book of Mormon are copied directly from the Bible, particularly from the book of Isaiah. How can something so corrupted like the Bible (as you claim), be poured into something so correct, like the Book of Mormon, and not remain unpolluted itself?"

I have been respectful in my disagreement, and offered up information and facts to consider, I have given the same respect and answered many questions of my faith.

The Mods probably havent closed this becasue for the most part it's been a great discussion, with many questions back and forth. I haven't written a falshood about your faith, and I haven't attacked anyone. I really dont understand why you are so angry, but again, I appologize.

In the beginning I quoted your own president inviting this criticism, and questions in the pursuit of truth, that is all I have been after, truth.