Religion and Science for us LDS

[Stampede]

I hear sometimes people talk about things liek the big bang theory and the theory of evolution as if they are nonsesical and seem as if they would take offense to the notion that we may have at one time been monkeys.

The bible and the D&C and the book of Mormon are very allegorical and vage when it comes to the actual creation, describing "what" happened rather than "how" it happened aside from the priesthood power of Jesus Christ.

now, that said, i will try to explain how it is possible for our theology and science to co-exist using modern theories as to the nature of the universe and the nature of homosapiens.

Before i get to the main part i would like to bring up a few things that have been stated and taught within the church ever since the restoration.

1: Spirits are matter, there is no such thing as immaterial matter, that matter is more refined and requires purer eyes to see.

2: The Lord works in a natural order to things.

3: God is intelligence, just as somethign exists there is space above it and subsequently there is something to exist above that. so is one intelligence more intelligent than another and God is more intelligent than they all.

I have been reading a book on particle physics and theory. and there is a hugh particle accelerator here in washington state that allows us to see the tiniest known particles in existence, Quarks and Leptons. now they only exist for a very short space of time before decaying as they are unable to sustain themselves. and thus decay into smaller unknown particles which we are unable to detect with our current technology. this not only concludes two theories, but also helps support the "big bang" theory.

Thoery A: that matter is eternal and infinite, matter cannot be destroyed or completely removed fromexistence, matter can only change form, decay or split to become a differen from of matter. just as fire burns a piece of wood, it is separating carbons from oxygen and other elements stored within the matter that wood is made of.

Theory B: Matter that is smaller requires "purer eyes" to see (i'm thinking of microscopes and hughe magnets in particle accelerators that provide an extreme magnification allowing us to detect Quarks and Leptons. because our "unrefined" eyes definitely cannot see it)

Now, this supports the Big Bang theory as in the universe is expanding and eventually will collapse on itself and start the cycle all over again. seeing as matter is never destroyed it could possibly perpetually continue to condense and expand.

that being said. our LDS theology says that our Father in heaven also had his own father in heaven and achieved exaltation along side him in a "continuation of the seeds forever and ever".

My possible theory is that our heavenly fatehr could have been given or found (whatever) a "ball of matter" to organize his own universe with and for his own purposes.

Now as to the theory of evolution. It states that God created man from the dust. and as we have evidence that proves evolotionary physics, could not that have been "How" God created man fromt eh dust? that over time Man was formed into what he is now? (it's a stretch and i may get flamed i know, but... it's a possibilty) we will probably never know untill we cross through the veil, but it's interesting to think about.

Also for the intelligencepart. Look at what we have, Modern science and advancements in technology are all showing God's hand in helping us. The internet, Wikinomics and the mass collaberation of the world changes everything. each of us int he world know put a small pin prick of what our father in heaven knows and through things like the web and communcations, we are able to share everything with virtually anyone, everywhere nearly INSTANTLY.

For me, Science is the "How", and Religion is the "why".

Thoughts? Comments?

[Hemidakota]

Why do you think that the creation was an allegorical event?

[Stampede]

because of the point i posed about God workign in a natural order of things.

[Hemidakota]

Have you read the Book of Abraham creational story?

[sgallan]

I am just curious, are you taking the position that one has to accept the creation story in the Bible as a literal event in order to be a LDS member in good standing?

[Stampede]

Have you read the Book of Abraham creational story?

but it doesn't say exactly HOW it happened aside from, that God commanded it.

But God commands things to happen in a natural order of things.

i also see it alot with skeptics or scientists who try to explain certain magnificent events like pillars of fire or a river turning to blood.

these very well could have been natural occurances that God commanded to happen at a specific time.

I'm also not stating anything about being in "good standing" with the church or any such thing.

it's merely my persepctive as to exatly "HOW" things were organized in the beginning, and "WHY", How being Science and Why Being our father in heaven's plan.

[DigitalShadow]

I am just curious, are you taking the position that one has to accept the creation story in the Bible as a literal event in order to be a LDS member in good standing?

I am curious as well. Accepting the creation story in the Bible as a literal event has been a large stubling block for me in accepting the Gospel since I have seen much scientific evidence to the contrary (yes, I've read all the arguments, please don't spam creationist links), but I am told that the fall of Adam is a crucial part of the plan of salvation for man.

P.S. I like the quote in your signature. I've used it a couple times in trying to explain my viewpoint to people, but usually they don't get it.

[Guest tomk]

Stampede:

I read your post.

All I have by way of comment is that I tend to be a bit more "open" about the Creation "process" than other people I think. For me, a God that accomplishes His designs by evolution does not destroy my faith. Nor does a God who just snaps His fingers and "here we are." Or anything in between those extremes.

I believe that God does what He does by obeying natural laws. I don't (necessarily) think that Man "evolved" -- but I think after he was created, he certainly could have been subject to evolutionary changes, as I suspect all of creation was, particularly after the Fall.

But even if I did find out, one day, that we "evolved" -- it would not shock me. Again -- it goes back to trusting that God "organized" our bodies in the way that the universe dictates, for God must follow natural law just as we must. What matters more to me is that He was in charge of it, and that I am here, with a spirit in my body that can feel His words and choose to follow them. The rest is just fluff, interesting fluff to talk about, for sure, but just fluff. I don't get upset over it. I know that one day I will comprehend even God. Until then I need to be patient.

[Hemidakota]

I am just curious, are you taking the position that one has to accept the creation story in the Bible as a literal event in order to be a LDS member in good standing?

No. We have a choice through agency, on how we accept the creational story. Through spiritual maturity over time, the Spirit will correct false dogmas that we carry in life; whether academics or parental nurture. To be in good standing, just be obedient to the FATHER, all will fall into place.

[Hemidakota]

but it doesn't say exactly HOW it happened aside from, that God commanded it.

But God commands things to happen in a natural order of things.

i also see it alot with skeptics or scientists who try to explain certain magnificent events like pillars of fire or a river turning to blood.

these very well could have been natural occurances that God commanded to happen at a specific time.

I'm also not stating anything about being in "good standing" with the church or any such thing.

it's merely my persepctive as to exatly "HOW" things were organized in the beginning, and "WHY", How being Science and Why Being our father in heaven's plan.

What is GOD commanding?

You keep using the term natural order. I am to assume, this means our natural physical laws as we know it? If that being the case, what physical state is GOD commanding [fill in the blank] to bid HIS will?

Noticed the order of life forms?

Noticed, there is nothing physcial without spiritual form first. There is nothing spiritual without what? All are building blocks. Now, where do you supposed this GOD retrieve these materials or is life made out nothing by chance?

Read it carefull again and you will find something striking.

Next, read Abraham chapter 3.

[sgallan]

Cool, because if you had stated otherwise I know of more than a few LDS scientists (I used to lurk on their duscussion group years ago) who would have taken offense to such a suggestion.

[Hemidakota]

Ey-L?

[sgallan]

I think this one was EY-Y, but it was the same format as the one you mentioned. I never posted; just lurked. I learned a lot of science from those guys though.

[Hemidakota]

Yes, late 80s, 90s, and I came back in the early 00 for a short duration [quesitoning the fresh water fish problem]. Some interesting learning moments.

[Snow]

I am curious as well. Accepting the creation story in the Bible as a literal event has been a large stubling block for me in accepting the Gospel since I have seen much scientific evidence to the contrary (yes, I've read all the arguments, please don't spam creationist links), but I am told that the fall of Adam is a crucial part of the plan of salvation for man.

P.S. I like the quote in your signature. I've used it a couple times in trying to explain my viewpoint to people, but usually they don't get it.

There's simply not enough information in the biblical creation myth to accept it as a literal account. It may be true but it can't be viewed as something concrete and detailed enough to consider actual history.

[Moksha]

My guess is the Creation story was fine in its day but now that we understand God's handiwork a bit better, it can be appreciated as allegory. Perhaps religion can be like coffee and the Creation story can be like sugar. You can take it straight or with superstition.*

*sorry for the mangled metaphors. The aforesaid coffee was of course Decaf.

[Stampede]

lol, yeah, no matter how the organization of the planets and bodies happened, it doesn't have any baring on the gospel or it's teachings.

It's just fun to think about

[Hemidakota]

Viewing a birth of a star probally be more funnier. lol

[Hemidakota]

There's simply not enough information in the biblical creation myth to accept it as a literal account. It may be true but it can't be viewed as something concrete and detailed enough to consider actual history.

"We only can account what is written from the two authors [Moses Genesis, Abraham, Book of Moses - Joseph Smith], those along the lines of faith; through faithfulness, trials of life, pondering the subject, eventually the Lord will correct the man, on what was, what is, and what shall be."

[Traveler]

This is a most interesting subject but I do not know where to begin. For example in quantum physics there are “moments” in which the balance of matter can change. In other words matter can be either created or destroyed. These “moments” are given the official name of quantum anomaly. Electrons are quite famous for this trick.

As far as sub atomic particles (particle physics) – I would point out that such particles are not sensed directly but indirectly; mostly by measuring their effect on other particles that we can measure and think we already understand quite well.

For the most part I am amazed when one of my scientist friends tells me that they do not believe in G-d. Often I will ask if they believe in electrons. Usually they say yes. I then respond with how interesting it is that they believe in electrons but do not believe in G-d. I explain that from all that I know of electrons and the many really un-logical things involving electrons that I seriously believe it takes less faith to believe in G-d than electrons. Let us start with something really simple and ask the question – Are electrons really a particle or are they really energy (wave) or is it really possible that they are something all together different? We just make up stuff because we do not have any other way to explain all the contradictions we face?

Much of knowledge is very dependent on some degree of faith. The more we really know the more faith we must exhibit in order to move forward to learn and discover more. Especially when it comes to useful applications. How much is necessary to understand about electrons before we are willing to turn a light on? A good scientist builds as best as they can upon the information that they can explain and then attempts to make sense of what cannot be explained. When they fail they do not reject the whole notion but continue forward until they have a better notion that will explain more. Then they try to push the cycle of knowledge to another step. Why do we not utilize this method with G-d? Sometimes I believe that it is because some are trying to hold on to a notion of G-d that is so flawed that sense cannot be made of anything let alone move to a next level. So that G-d becomes so unknowable and without reality that the argument is changed to the unworthiness of anyone that expects a straight answer.

The Traveler

[Guest tomk]

Traveler:

I enjoyed reading your post.

You will see me reference a talk by W. Cleon Skousen quite a bit over the coming years:

A Personal Search for the Meaning of the Atonement Cronk

Have you read it?

The article speaks more to the "WHAT" we are witnessing when we look at the world around us. Intelligence + Element. That is what constitutes our reality.

All I can say is "I'm a believer" and I'll leave it at that. I'm sure the "speculation police" will be along soon. :)

I don't know why some people just can't seem to accept God "as He is." I don't know why they won't apply the scientific method in order to come to "know God" like they "know electrons" or "know" the laws of Physics. Think "Alma chapter 32."

We've been blessed (by God) with some marvelous technology in the last 150 years or so. Just imagine if every scientist began their day with prayer, pleading for the Lord to guide them and inspire them! Imagine combining their blessing of intellect and their dedication to methodology (line by line) with God's inspiration!!

From the verse below, I think scientists have a wealth of material with which to apply the "scientific method" to come to know God:

Alma 30: 44

44 But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.

The evidence that there is a God is all around us! That is what is so funny and so strange and so tragic. Scientists lament that there is no way to "prove" there is a God, but the proof is in the air they breathe, the beating of their heart, even in the electrons and protons (which are universes in themselves).

The problem is having "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" - which is another way of describing the establishment of a friendly disposition towards God, of trying to see His hand in ALL areas of our lives, which breeds humility:

2 Ne. 9: 42

42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.

or said another way:

If [THEY] come down in the depths of humility, he will open unto them!!!!

I could keep going and going. :)

Just a few of my thoughts. :)

[skalenfehl]

All I can say is "I'm a believer" and I'll leave it at that. I'm sure the "speculation police" will be along soon. :)

He's funny, too!

[Traveler]

Traveler:

I enjoyed reading your post.

You will see me reference a talk by W. Cleon Skousen quite a bit over the coming years:

A Personal Search for the Meaning of the Atonement Cronk

Have you read it?

The article speaks more to the "WHAT" we are witnessing when we look at the world around us. Intelligence + Element. That is what constitutes our reality.

All I can say is "I'm a believer" and I'll leave it at that. I'm sure the "speculation police" will be along soon. :)

I don't know why some people just can't seem to accept God "as He is." I don't know why they won't apply the scientific method in order to come to "know God" like they "know electrons" or "know" the laws of Physics. Think "Alma chapter 32."

We've been blessed (by God) with some marvelous technology in the last 150 years or so. Just imagine if every scientist began their day with prayer, pleading for the Lord to guide them and inspire them! Imagine combining their blessing of intellect and their dedication to methodology (line by line) with God's inspiration!!

From the verse below, I think scientists have a wealth of material with which to apply the "scientific method" to come to know God:

Alma 30: 44

44 But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.

The evidence that there is a God is all around us! That is what is so funny and so strange and so tragic. Scientists lament that there is no way to "prove" there is a God, but the proof is in the air they breathe, the beating of their heart, even in the electrons and protons (which are universes in themselves).

The problem is having "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" - which is another way of describing the establishment of a friendly disposition towards God, of trying to see His hand in ALL areas of our lives, which breeds humility:

2 Ne. 9: 42

42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.

or said another way:

If [THEY] come down in the depths of humility, he will open unto them!!!!

I could keep going and going. :)

Just a few of my thoughts. :)

Thank you for reading my post. There is a time and a season appointed for all things. At one time of my youth, I played softball. My father who was a very spiritual and devoted man that did not play softball once explained to me that although the scriptures are important there are times to look to and pay attention to other things. He said that while I was playing second base is not the time to be reading the scriptures. He then counseled me not to be so heavenly minded that I am of no earthly use.

If we are to integrate science and religion we must understand both. If we are to expect those expert in the methods of science to try the methods of faith we must also be willing to try the methods of science as an example of how we would like our concepts of faith accepted.

The technical advances that allow us more time to pursue religious things have come about because of the understanding of scientific principles that many religious individuals do not accept; yet they are will willing to enjoy the comfort of the advances. This results in many scientists resenting and looking upon those who focus mostly on that which is religious as hypocrites.

The Traveler

[Stampede]

I Wanted to bring this up too. The idea of an "Outer Darkenss or "Hell" where non shall escape sounds to me like this....

Black hole - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Black hole information paradox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Guest tomk]

He's funny, too!

I try. :)

Not everyone gets my brand of humor.

I am also a bit blunt in expressing what I think.

Tom