The Great Apostasy

[CatholicGirl]

By my name, I'm sure you can all see that I'm not mormon. I'd like to have a disscussion on the the Great Apsotasy - what is it exactly?

[Elgama]

Hope the links work this is best explanation of the apostasy and restoration I have ever heard in my time as a Latter Day Saint.

-Charley

[a-train]

The most important thing to understand about this issue is that it was the LORD who withdrew His preisthood from among men, it was not men who stayed the hand of God.

-a-train

[darrel]

Elder Holland also gave a very enlightening review of scripture and the need for continuing revelation which was lost during the apostasy. I apologize I am not skilled in posting the reference in the body of this post. You can find it at the top under the heading of 178 Annual General Conference.

[tubaloth]

I'd like to have a disscussion on the the Great Apsotasy - what is it exactly?

Its the teaching that after Christ left, and as the Apostles (and prophets) tried to some extent hold the Church (that Christ set up) together. More and more people rejected it (the Church) and the servents (Prophets and apostles). Finally the time came when God took his authorty (priesthood) and thus no more NEW prophets and apostles were called. Because of this men were left to there own interpretation of the scriptures (instead of having the revelation of God).

Thats the basic idea of the Apostasy. Pretty much falling away from the church Christ set up.

There are many events over time that kind of brought on a deeper Apostasy over the years.

you can find more about it here Apostasy

[CatholicGirl]

Oh, okay. But I still don't understand how this could have happened. In the bible, Jesus says "Upon this rock I shall build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Jesus built HIS church on a firm foundation, and promised that the "gates of hell" will not prevail against it. If His church dissapeared even for a short time, the gates of hell would have prevailed against it, thus making Jesus a liar.

Also... I don't think a mere seventy years after the Lord had risen to heaven, something He had made would fall apart so easily. Not when He meant it to last through the ages.

[Stampede]

Oh, okay. But I still don't understand how this could have happened. In the bible, Jesus says "Upon this rock I shall build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Jesus built HIS church on a firm foundation, and promised that the "gates of hell" will not prevail against it. If His church dissapeared even for a short time, the gates of hell would have prevailed against it, thus making Jesus a liar.

Also... I don't think a mere seventy years after the Lord had risen to heaven, something He had made would fall apart so easily. Not when He meant it to last through the ages.

If you take a look at the rest of the Bible you wills ee how easily peopel forget thier God even, and ESPECIALLY, during bountiful times.

Now, from a completely objective standpoint. The Caotholic church claims it's succession from peter, but.... The original founder of the Catholic church was Ignatius of Antioch who of course claimed to be a diciple of peter's and his office was said to be that of a bishop. That office of Bishop is an office of the lesser, levitical, or the prepartory preisthood back in Jesus' time. the apostles were ordained with the higher, or Melchezidek priesthood, that same priesthood Jesus Christ held. But in order for the priesthood to be conferred there would have required 3 of the apostles to be present, this could not have been the case since thier dispursement across the world on missionary efforts to each of the churches.

It is my belief that Ignatius may have indeed held the lesser priesthood and had tried to organize the remnants of the church after the apostle's death. but the problem was the higher authority was no longer present. and thus the church lost it's authority to act in God's name.

Yes, Jesus did say "upon this rock" and suo forth, and he did not lie, Because when the priesthood keys were restored to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdry, it was at that time Peter, James, and John, then translated beings, the promise was definitely fulfilled that upon the rock of Peter, this great work was brought forth among the children of men for the final dispensation.

I would pose a question to you CatholicGirl, how do you explain the prophesies of Isaiah? or the Book of Revelation, especially the part about an angel with a book that contained the everlasting gospel? If the everlasting gospel was already present, why would there be a need for an angel to bring it to the earth?

[Traveler]

Oh, okay. But I still don't understand how this could have happened. In the bible, Jesus says "Upon this rock I shall build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Jesus built HIS church on a firm foundation, and promised that the "gates of hell" will not prevail against it. If His church dissapeared even for a short time, the gates of hell would have prevailed against it, thus making Jesus a liar.

Also... I don't think a mere seventy years after the Lord had risen to heaven, something He had made would fall apart so easily. Not when He meant it to last through the ages.

Events that occurred over 300 years following the death and resurrection of Christ brought about the destruction of the library of Alexandria and the world plunged into the time known as it darkest era of history – the Dark Ages. When Jesus spoke to Peter about the establishing of his kingdom and society the foundation was indeed being forged and the pattern of the kingdom was established for all time.

Your interpretation of “prevail” in association with the forces of evil opposing G-d’s kingdom is short sided. There are many other ways to interpret what this meant. Peter was put to death by evil forces but in the resurrection we have symbolism of the eventual triumph of good over evil. Likewise in the apostasy evil did not prevail over good but in the restoration of the Kingdom of G-d – with apostles and prophets - according to the ancient kingdom established by Christ good will triumph over evil. So that in the last days the kingdom of G-d would be established again and like the resurrection restored to the same that was created by G-d as it was before the kingdom was brought low and forced by men to resemble the organization of the Pagan Roman Empire. Which was like unto a death but like the resurrection the restoration keeps evil from prevailing over the kingdom of G-d.

The Traveler

[LdsNana]

May I simply add to the conversation, just a bit more at this point -

Whenever a people were prepared and willing to receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ, here upon the earth - God has made it available.

The apostasy which followed the death of Jesus Christ, and ultimately His chosen servants - came about, because the members of the Church rejected the words, authority and true doctrinal teachings of living prophets of God.

As each prophet died, or was killed - eventually, God did not fill that position in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. God is a great respector of individual agency. The entire plan of salvation is based on this great principle of our willingness to receive His word...

Should we not rejoice in the calling of Apostles and Prophets today - which sends a most wonderful message to all the world - that a people are upon the earth that are willing to receive His power, word and authority from these mere men, which He has called and given unto us!

Thus, the sacred experience that was the process of the recent solemn assembly - to sustain a living prophet of God!

The years following the death of the Savior, as even during His life; came the great philosophers of the world and their teachings, which became mingled with the teachings of the true church...

The natural man, will always prefer the soothing philosophies of men, versus the laws and commandments of God.

Simply put - God did not take away His priesthood, nor was it lost - but was rejected by those who made covenants to follow His prophets, as well as - others were not interested in it either, as the doctrines now had become corrupt... and lost their power to bring people unto Christ.

Thus - there was no longer the ability to administer the true gospel on the earth any longer at that time... This had nothing to do with God taking it or deciding to not administer His Gospel whatsoever.

God can only give, to those willing to receive - this is an eternal law!

tDMg

LdsNana

[a-train]

If His church dissapeared even for a short time, the gates of hell would have prevailed against it, thus making Jesus a liar.

This would only be true if this 'disappearance' was into the gates of hell. That is not the LDS assertion.

Look at Revelation 12. The LDS interpretation is that the 'woman clothed with the sun, [with] the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars' is the Church of the Firstborn, even the Church of Jesus Christ. And in verse six she 'fled into the wilderness'. She was 'given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.' (v. 14)

This, to the LDS, is concerning the time wherein the Church was hidden in the wilderness. She did not cease to exist, nor was she conquered. The gates of hell did not prevail against her, but she was taken into the wilderness where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

The marvelous work of God in the last days is in the bringing of His Gospel out of obscurity and darkness to all them that believe. He brought forth the Book of Mormon for that purpose. Read it, ponder over it, and pray about it. It is the key to understanding this new dispensation. The declaration of latter day prophets is not that the Church has been overcome, but that she has been nourished and the Gospel message is being sent throughout the world and God is gathering all who will be gathered to Zion.

-a-train

[Alma 5:45-46]

Oh, okay. But I still don't understand how this could have happened. In the bible, Jesus says "Upon this rock I shall build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Jesus built HIS church on a firm foundation, and promised that the "gates of hell" will not prevail against it. If His church dissapeared even for a short time, the gates of hell would have prevailed against it, thus making Jesus a liar.

Also... I don't think a mere seventy years after the Lord had risen to heaven, something He had made would fall apart so easily. Not when He meant it to last through the ages.

If you will read Matthew 16:15-19, you will notice that the Lord is explaining that Peter is the foremost apostle and leader of the church and that it was revealed to him that Jesus was the Christ by divine revelation from God. And that it was upon that rock, of revelation and priesthood keys of authority, that the Lord would establish and lead His church. As long as the church accepted the inspired leadership of the apostles and lived according to the Lord's teachings, the church would remain pure and undefiled and "the gates of hell" would not prevail against it. But, this wasn't what happened. Many of the plain teachings and ordinances of the gospel were changed or abandoned. Some of the apostles were murdered. Because of the wickedness of the people, the Lord took the authority to act in His name from the earth for a time and the foretold apostacy occured because the people rejected His true gospel. The glorious news is that the Lord didn't leave it that way. He restored His gospel to the earth and established His church again with apostles and prophets and revelation to guide it.

[tubaloth]

Oh, okay. But I still don't understand how this could have happened. In the bible, Jesus says "Upon this rock I shall build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Jesus built HIS church on a firm foundation, and promised that the "gates of hell" will not prevail against it.

Like it was just said, we really view this a little differently. We believe the Church was built on Revelation! But even more that Christ's Church would be found on Revelation (the same kind Peter had). This we do belive was in effect today. The church is again built on revelation.

Also... I don't think a mere seventy years after the Lord had risen to heaven, something He had made would fall apart so easily. Not when He meant it to last through the ages.

You would think... Why did the bible end? Why not more writings from the Apostles? We have a full Old Testament of writtings of Gods dealing with his people. Then during the New Testament we have writings, but not long after the Apostles dies off the scriptures died off also. Just a quincedence(sp)???

Also we have to realize there has been times before that, people have rejected Gods word (and his Servents) and in a way God started over.

Also the scripture that goes with all of this is found in Amos 8:11

11 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:

When people reject Gods word, he leaves them on there own to struggle. Then when the God's word is restored, we realize how valuable it really is!

The other thing we do have to realize is that apsotisy has happen on and off through out the bible.

[Elgama]

Oh, okay. But I still don't understand how this could have happened. In the bible, Jesus says "Upon this rock I shall build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Jesus built HIS church on a firm foundation, and promised that the "gates of hell" will not prevail against it. If His church dissapeared even for a short time, the gates of hell would have prevailed against it, thus making Jesus a liar.

I personally believe because the organisation went into apostasy was why the gates of hell did not prevail against it - its apostasy allowed the Roman Empire to take up the church taking the message of Jesus all round the world.. Without that it had the potential to dwindle or be confined to the Middle East - in my opinion the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is so big now because of a combination of the church going into apostasy and being restored just after the start of the industrial revolution. Jesus isn't a liar He just knows and understands His Heavenly Father's plan

Also... I don't think a mere seventy years after the Lord had risen to heaven, something He had made would fall apart so easily. Not when He meant it to last through the ages.

Clearly it did - and we can be sure because it did it happened when it was supposed to.

One of the talks in general conference used a phrase something like we perceive things as the foolishness of God because we don't understand His ways - our foolishness in thinking that is much greater.

-Charley

[darrel]

Good Morning Catholicgirl

I think a good way to look at this is to discuss how Jesus organized his church when he was on the earth. I think you would agree that Jesus would establish a an organization that would be the pattern of how he wanted us to be taught.

Eph 4: 11-14

11. And He gave some Apostles and some Prophets and some evangelists and pasters and teachers.

12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry,for the edifying of the body of christ.

13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the slight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

Again a restoration was to take place only after an apostasy which was spoken of in Acts 3: 19-21

19. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20. And He shall send Jesus Christ which before was preached unto you:

21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

A prophet is essential to receive the revelation or foundation rock of Christs true church.

Amos 3: 7

Surly the Lord God will do nothing except he reveal his secret unto his servent the Prophet.

Remember we can give you all the doctrine and scripture you could need but you will not be convinced of these things unless you put it to your own test.

The Book of Mormon another witness of Jesus Christ says on page 529.

Moroni 10: 4-5

4. And when you receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true: and if you shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Many other scriptures and references can help understand the apostasy.

The key is that we truly know the nature of God and Christ as the savior said in his prayer to the Father in the garden of Gethsemine.

John 17:3

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent.

Good luck in your quest. Our prayer is that you will recognize the truth amidst the many opposing voices. I add my witness that God Lives, Jesus is the Christ, and His true Church is once again restored to the earth with Apostles and Prophets just as Jesus himself organized when he was on the earth, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

[Vanhin]

Oh, okay. But I still don't understand how this could have happened. In the bible, Jesus says "Upon this rock I shall build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Jesus built HIS church on a firm foundation, and promised that the "gates of hell" will not prevail against it. If His church dissapeared even for a short time, the gates of hell would have prevailed against it, thus making Jesus a liar.

Also... I don't think a mere seventy years after the Lord had risen to heaven, something He had made would fall apart so easily. Not when He meant it to last through the ages.

Hi CatholicGirl,

The point you are making actually works in our favor. Let me briefly explain. I quote the passage you quote again, along with the next verse:

"18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Matt. 16:18-19)

Frist and foremost, these passages represent the passing of keys to Peter, the chief apostle, from one having authority (Jesus Christ). Keys of the priesthood are not tangible keys like the ones we use to start our car. They represent authority, or the right to direct the work of the priesthood and the Chruch, within certain juristictions. In Peter's case, it was the the whole Church. In LDS language, we would say that Peter was the President of the Church of Jesus Christ, due to this passing of priesthood authority (or keys). Consequently, the Apostles James, and his brother John, were the "counselors" in Peter's presidency (see Matt. 17:1, Matt. 26:37).

Included in these passages, as you pointed out, is also a word of prophecy concerning this authority given to Peter and about Peter himself: "...upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. ".

The words of the Savior indicate, that Peter's death was by crucifixion (John 21:18). So, we know, that the "rock" upon which the Church would be built, died, along with the other martyrs of the "foundation" spoken of in Ephesians, the "apostles and prophets" of the Twelve. When Peter and the other Apostles had died or been slain, it happened so fast that there was not a chance to pass the keys on to others. This, along with the general falling away from truth of the church members, brought about the Great Apostasy. There no longer was anyone left on the Earth, who held the keys which Peter took with him in death. This is the most significant reason the Church fell into apostasy.

So, does that make Jesus a liar? Did the gates of hell prevail? He is not, and they did not.

In these latter days, when the Gospel of Jesus Christ was being restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord sent messengers to restore the priesthood along with it's right to govern the affairs of the Church; in other words, the keys. You would be interested to know, that the three messengers sent to restore the priesthood and it's keys, were in fact the last people on Earth to ever hold them: The resurrected apostles Peter, James, and John. By revelation the Savior said to Joseph Smith:

"12 And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them;

13 Unto whom I have committed the keys of my kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fulness of times, in the which I will gather together in one all things, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;" (D&C 27:12-13)

Turns out that the gates of hell did not prevail!! It was Peter, who was sent to restore the priesthood and the keys of the kingdom to Joseph Smith. I believe that the passages you quoted, speak deeply of a coming apostasy, and more importantly of the restoration.

Since the restoration, there have been apostles and prophets on the earth again. In an unbroken chain the Quorum of Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints collectively hold these keys, and each time a new prophet is called, the right to exercise these keys is conferred upon him. And the Prophet, the President of the Church, is the only one authorized to exercise all the keys and direct, by revelation, the kingdom of heaven on earth.

"19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:" (Eph. 2:19-21)

Regards,

Vanhin

[roman]

Catholicgirl.

Please remember that what your asking here and getting here is a thought and believe, only used by thelds church.

No one else subsribes to the belief of the total apostacy that the lds church puts forth. Nor does anyone belief in the thought that the keys were taken away by God -------except the lds chruch.

A question you may also ask is way is that? Why does 99% of the Christian world reject this mormon teaching?

[Canuck Mormon]

Please remember that what your asking here and getting here is a thought and believe, only used by thelds church.

No one else subsribes to the belief of the total apostacy that the lds church puts forth. Nor does anyone belief in the thought that the keys were taken away by God -------except the lds chruch.

A question you may also ask is way is that? Why does 99% of the Christian world reject this mormon teaching?

But to get an answer to that question, she would have to ask the 99% of the Christian world. She was asking our opinion on our doctrine.

[Vanhin]

But to get an answer to that question, she would have to ask the 99% of the Christian world. She was asking our opinion on our doctrine.

Exactly.

[Vanhin]

Catholicgirl.

Please remember that what your asking here and getting here is a thought and believe, only used by thelds church.

No one else subsribes to the belief of the total apostacy that the lds church puts forth. Nor does anyone belief in the thought that the keys were taken away by God -------except the lds chruch.

A question you may also ask is way is that? Why does 99% of the Christian world reject this mormon teaching?

And the answer would be... drumroll... APOSTASY!!!

Actually, all of this boils down to one question. Was Joseph Smith really a prophet of God, and did what he said actually happen?

You see, God the Father, and his Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph Smith and told him that an apostasy had happened. We're not the ones saying this, God is. So, your challenge is to find out if God really appeared to Joseph Smith. If God did appear to Joseph Smith, and put all of this in motion, then wouldn't you like to know for sure, rather than just dismissing it wholesale?

There was an apostasy, and there was a restoration. Our message to the whole world, is that the heavens are open, and God has once again called a prophet, like He did anciently, and we are commanded to preapred the world for his second coming. We say to all, "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Regards,

Vanhin

[roman]

But to get an answer to that question, she would have to ask the 99% of the Christian world. She was asking our opinion on our doctrine.

Oh I understand what she was asking and you all have provided excellant answers from the lds point of view.

All I was saying is that the majority of Christians believe outherwise and it may be a good idea to get another perspective as to why the lds view is rejected.

And BTW , no she won't have to ask 99% of the Christian world to get the right answer:). Does it take 99% of the lds church to wiegh in on a matter. No I don't think so.

I think you would agree thoughto something, its best to gather as much info as one can. If your so sure that your right, what can it hurt for catholicgirl or anyone for that matter to get an opposing view^_^

[roman]

And the answer would be... drumroll... APOSTASY!!!

Actually, all of this boils down to one question. Was Joseph Smith really a prophet of God, and did what he said actually happen?

You see, God the Father, and his Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph Smith and told him that an apostasy had happened. We're not the ones saying this, God is. So, your challenge is to find out if God really appeared to Joseph Smith. If God did appear to Joseph Smith, and put all of this in motion, then wouldn't you like to know for sure, rather than just dismissing it wholesale?

There was an apostasy, and there was a restoration. Our message to the whole world, is that the heavens are open, and God has once again called a prophet, like He did anciently, and we are commanded to preapred the world for his second coming. We say to all, "Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Regards,

Vanhin

Thats the answer you came up with, but millions upon millions have rejected it. For to many of us there are just to many holes in JS account for it to be believable.

And yes you are the ones saying so [iMHO] God never contradicks himself and thats what you must believe to believe as you do--------ofcourse IMHO

[Elgama]

And yes you are the ones saying so [iMHO] God never contradicks himself and thats what you must believe to believe as you do--------ofcourse IMHO

Firstly Joseph Smith's story is less important than revelation if God confirms it then it must e true - I am not about to turn away and disobey God Himself.

Personally I believe whilst God does not contradict, as humans we can very easily perceive a contradiction, we are not at the stage to understand eternity 100%, so our understanding of it can be contradictory and even be different to someone elses and both be as correct as we are ready for.

To be a man of God perfection isn't required, very few were as good as Job, Abraham abandoned a wife and child, both Isaac and Abraham lied to a King and nearly got their wives raped, Jacob misparented so badly that 10 of his sons tried to kill 1, Moses took credit for something he did not do, Noah got drunk and stripped off, Jonah was disobedient and totally barking mad (getting angry with the gourd), David went on to commit adultery and murder, Peter denied Christ 3 times, it appears Paul and Peter did not get along and contradicted each other. Like many of our apostles and prophets have said in the Latter Days nobody was more surprised than their families at their callings, because they are just ordinary men. Difference is we know more about Joseph Smith thru Thomas S Monson than about previous prophets of God - there would be much fewer holes if all we had were the Standard Works and the Ensigns..

How on Earth did people know to trust them - they had God's image and spirit about them

-Charley

[roman]

Firstly Joseph Smith's story is less important than revelation if God confirms it then it must e true - I am not about to turn away and disobey God Himself.

Personally I believe whilst God does not contradict, as humans we can very easily perceive a contradiction, we are not at the stage to understand eternity 100%, so our understanding of it can be contradictory and even be different to someone elses and both be as correct as we are ready for.

To be a man of God perfection isn't required, very few were as good as Job, Abraham abandoned a wife and child, both Isaac and Abraham lied to a King and nearly got their wives raped, Jacob misparented so badly that 10 of his sons tried to kill 1, Moses took credit for something he did not do, Noah got drunk and stripped off, Jonah was disobedient and totally barking mad (getting angry with the gourd), David went on to commit adultery and murder, Peter denied Christ 3 times, it appears Paul and Peter did not get along and contradicted each other. Like many of our apostles and prophets have said in the Latter Days nobody was more surprised than their families at their callings, because they are just ordinary men. Difference is we know more about Joseph Smith thru Thomas S Monson than about previous prophets of God - there would be much fewer holes if all we had were the Standard Works and the Ensigns..

How on Earth did people know to trust them - they had God's image and spirit about them

-Charley

I pretty much agree with what you have to say-----------BUT Jesus said that God was Sprit[refering to the Father], But JS says that he was once a man who became God and that he has a body of flesh and bone. That my friend is a great big contradiction between what Jesus says and what JS says about the Father Thats one of them holes I was talking about.

[darrel]

Roman

I believe that you and millions of others do not know or choose to reject the full truth. Prevailing christian belief is based on the bible, which we know has portions of the gospel in it, but was changed to match the doctrine voted in by the scholors during the Nician Counsel. The subsiquent branching and divisions of denominations results in a profusion of different doctrines, teachings and beliefs. That is why we need a prophet, revelation, and other doctrinal witnesses to help understand the true teachings of Jesus Christ.

While you and millions may reject Joseph Smith as a prophet, that does not make him any less of a prophet. God calls his prophets to teach people his will. We know what happens when people reject a prophet as in the the example of Noah.

I believe your effort to dissuade individuals from the focus of this forum, to Testify of the Restored Gospel, is counter to its purpose. The adversary is trying to do the same thing. I do agree that individuals should find out for themselves, weigh the differences and seek through sincere prayer to know the truth.:)

[Elgama]

I pretty much agree with what you have to say-----------BUT Jesus said that God was Sprit[refering to the Father], But JS says that he was once a man who became God and that he has a body of flesh and bone. That my friend is a great big contradiction between what Jesus says and what JS says about the Father Thats one of them holes I was talking about.

where is the hole? Heavenly Father has a spirit in LDS theology always has had - also in LDS theology there is a difference between God and Heavenly Father. God can also refer to Jesus who was spirit then became a man with a body, or the Holy Ghost which is just a spirit. There is more spirit and body in that God:)

-Charley