What if someone removed your children because your bishop was arrested?

[Moksha]

It seems that some extraordinary means need to be taken if society is ever going to halt the inherent abuse to the underage brides being given to old men not of their choosing and to the boys who are routinely driven out of the community to reduce the competition for these underage brides.

These two sets of abuses do not fit well with society's obligation to protect its citizens.

[Shell72]

Burning the building down with the children inside is a little overboard I'd say. We need to be very careful to avoid mob activity.

-a-train

That didn't happen in this case though - the people resisted but then complied with the search. If they have done nothing wrong, then I am sure they will get their compound back the way it was..

[prisonchaplain]

On the flip side though - many times children that are not taken out of homes should be. We can not fault the CPS for ensuring that children are safe.

Had the tradgedy with the little one falling down the stairs not been an accident, and the other children were hurt by the parents - Everyone would be screaming "Why didnt' they do something after one died?".

I feel so bad for CPS as it seems they are horrible if they do and horrible if they don't. I do believe they have the best interests of children at heart, and will make mistakes as they are human, but thank goodness they do what they do.

This is a very fair point. We had a case in the paper here recently in which CPS was roundly criticized for failing to intervene, despite repeated visits and reports of problems. A thankless, and underpaid job to be sure.

[prisonchaplain]

Originally Posted by Shell72

I am thankful that the gov't stepped in and rescued these children.

And thank goodness the Chinese military has stepped into Lhasa, Tibet and restored order.

Your retort is the essence of non sequitar.

I think it was President Ronald Reagan who made a point about excessive government intervention in people's lives by joking that the time to panic is when the government says not to worry, the government is here to save you.

Since this was a law enforcement action, and not a new government program, what exactly is your point? You do not believe the government should respond when there are reports of child abuse???

[prisonchaplain]

Burning the building down with the children inside is a little overboard I'd say. We need to be very careful to avoid mob activity.

-a-train

A-train, your suggestion that the government intentionally burned down the building with children is wrong. The report I read does point to stockpiling of explosives within the compound.

Just why do you suppose any government would intentionally burn children? Especially a democratic one?

[prisonchaplain]

A-train, your suggestion that the government intentionally burned down the building with children is wrong. The report I read does point to stockpiling of explosives within the compound.

Just why do you suppose any government would intentionally burn children? Especially a democratic one? BTW...we are referring to Waco, right?

THE FOLLOWING IS FROM FRONTLINE (PBS):

Who started the fire that erupted a little more than six hours after the FBI began inserting the tear gas on April 19?

Although several of the surviving Branch Davidians insist that they did not start the fire, a panel of arson investigators concluded that the Davidians were responsible for igniting it, simultaneously, in at least three different areas of the compound. Unless they were deliberatley set, the probability of the three fires starting almost simultaneously was highly unlikely, according to fire experts. Furthermore, the videotapes show the use of accelerants that strongly increased the spread of the fire. Although one Branch Davidian stated that a FBI tank had tipped over a lantern, videotapes show that the tank had struck the building a minute and a half before the fire began. Also some of the surviving Davidians' clothing showed evidence of lighter fluid and other accelerants. In addition, FBI listening devices seemed to establish that the Davidians were overheard making statements such as, "Spread the fuel," some six hours before the fires began. (Joint Hearing of the Crime Subcommittee July 1995.)

[MorningStar]

I hope the government is dealing with this case legally and will be able to use all the evidence they gather. It sickens me what is happening to the women and children there.

[Fiannan]

An official with the Soviet government was visiting the United States in the 1970s and commented on propaganda. He said that in the USSR the effectiveness of propaganda was minor since people knew they were being brainwashed yet gave the underhanded compliment to American society that the propaganda machine was so extensive, and so unrecognized by the people, that society was kept within acceptable bounds without the turning to force. Yes, American society prides itself on individuality yet where do we truly teach our young people to apply critical thinking skills? Well, not in government schools.

Check out waht Shell72 states about the FLDS TEMPLE. The media also calls this a compound. Frank Luntz is an expert on language and politics. He's the one who urged conservatives to use the work "global climate change" rather than "global warming" because the subtle subconscious associations would cause peopel to react to policy suggestions quite differently. Here we even have people on an LDS forum calling a temple that is held in as high regard to these people as LDS hold their own temples a compound -- which gives people an image of hostile people holding off the world. I guess that might apply to "The Alamo" from Santa Anna's perspective -- notice if our history books called The Alamo a compound (that would certainly apply) but how it changes the context -- a group of men illegally holding off the enforcement of law from the legal government of Mexico (at the time)?

And PC again seems to defend the actions of the US government at Waco. Note, why was the US government at Waco in the first place? Koresh may have had some weapons? Yeah, how many illegal weapons are in any crack house in our large cities? Come on -- the growth of the militia movement had been on the news for the last year. The decision to go after Koresh was probably an attempt to find the most controversial person who could be associated with militias (although he was not officially connected the public mind is not all that analytical, now is it?) an attack on Koresh would show that the government was fully in charge. When the government sent in law enforcement and more armored vehecles than were protecting our forces in the capital city of Somolia (did you see "Blackhawk Down?) the stage was set for a showdown that any psychologist could have told Fieldmarshal Reno would end in disaster. Then when the government DID wipe out the people the powers that be made sure the story put all the blame on Koresh. I did note the irony that the Chinese government did accuse the US of hypocracy for attacking China on human rights but undertaking such policies in regards to Waco.

Make no mistake about it, unless the FLDS win out in court (they do have a really brilliant and dedicated legal expert taking their case) this sets a really bad precedent in the use and abuse of power. I do hope and pray that the children of the FLDS are returned to their families and that the legal team can sue the state of Texas and any other government agencies for tens of millions of dollars.

[skippy740]

The Associated Press: Sect Mothers Appeal to Texas Governor

Hard cases make for bad laws. Unless the social service agencies and the government is squashed by good lawyers in court this sort of thing could be used to attack many other religious groups. I have also read that the ultimate goal of this is to deprogram the kids. Now since these children have been raised to see Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, and this is after all Texas, then what do you suppose will be the first thing that these deprogramers will be wanting to erase from the minds of these kids?

As far as the thread's question: We don't live in a COMPOUND with our Bishop. We aren't cut off from the rest of the world. "In the world, but not OF the world."

And yes, I'm happy that the local law enforcement has stepped in, but I'm concerned for the kids. They will be told that their CULT was a cult, and that these things shouldn't be happening. But, if that's true, they may feel a huge sudden loss of personal self-esteem if they are the RESULT of some of these unions.

Most of these kids were BORN into this situation. While I'm glad they're out, I don't know how well they'll work with the rest of the world.

This whole situation will need to be handled with great care.

I wonder if some of these kids will end up in LDS foster care homes? Now they can REALLY get confused! Especially if they have pictures of the Temple up in their homes, Book of Mormon & D&C books. They'll begin to wonder, but be reasonably afraid.

[Fiannan]

As far as the thread's question: We don't live in a COMPOUND with our Bishop. We aren't cut off from the rest of the world. "In the world, but not OF the world."

And yes, I'm happy that the local law enforcement has stepped in, but I'm concerned for the kids. They will be told that their CULT was a cult, and that these things shouldn't be happening. But, if that's true, they may feel a huge sudden loss of personal self-esteem if they are the RESULT of some of these unions.

Most of these kids were BORN into this situation. While I'm glad they're out, I don't know how well they'll work with the rest of the world.

This whole situation will need to be handled with great care.

I wonder if some of these kids will end up in LDS foster care homes? Now they can REALLY get confused! Especially if they have pictures of the Temple up in their homes, Book of Mormon & D&C books. They'll begin to wonder, but be reasonably afraid.

Just remember, there are people out there who believe that the best thing the US government could do is confiscate mainstream LDS kids and raise them in goo, fundamentalist Christian backgrounds. Careful with what powers you want to give the state -- many German Jews (note German, not Jews from eastern Europe) supported Hitler (they thought his attacks on Jews was directed at immigrants, not them). Look what happened to them.

On a side note, no matter what the outcome of this fascist action is, it's a pretty good guess that a few of these children may grow up with such hatred towards what the state has done that they will see Timothy McVie as an ideal role model.

[Alaskagain]

I think the government is grossly overreacting. No, I am not in favor of underage girls being put in the position of being forced to be a polygamous bride.

It seems to me that more steps could have taken to identify the initial caller, and to have a calmer and slower paced investigation on the grounds.

The legal authorities could have at the very least left all the children under the age of 13 at home with their moms in their own familiar surroundings.

I highly doubt that even within this group that there were "marriages" of anyone under the age of 13.

With a little patience, even with an uncooperative mood of this community, the truth could have been had and arrests could have been made.

[Gwen]

one of the things i heard on the news that seems to be a concern for many is what about "good parents" that were there, that their kids were safe and due to living there had their children taken from them.

though i understand where the commenters were comming from i don't agree. at a very young age i learned the concept of "birds of a feather" sometimes you are guilty by association. if you live in a compound or gated community or whatever you choose to call it that you know is infested with this kind of activity you have to know you are associated as being one of them. if you are not, move.

i think if this had been a drug compound/house things would be different. if i owned a home with tons and tons of bedrooms and allowed drug dealers to rent all the rooms, even if i'm a good parent, a raid comes to my home what do you really think will happen? they will take my kids. i should have had since enough to not rent to drug dealers and let them work out of my home. even though i didn't "abuse" my children i have put them at risk of extream danger. i would be deemed unfit. i wonder if anyone would complain when that hit the news.

they should not get a free pass cause they have found a way to call their blatant disreguard for laws or human rights "religion". this is disgusting and needs to have an end put to it.

another thing i don't think is being considered is that a lot of the women in this place are as much victims as the children. they had been raised such that they could not leave or ask for help if they wanted to. i think it's called learned helplessness. they were incapable of helping their children or themselves. my opinion anyone born on the compound should be treated like a victim, anyone that had outside influance and chose to live there in that lifestyle is a criminal.

fyi, yes i've seen the system mess up and violate someones rights before. iv'e seen ppl who have had their children unjustly taken from them while the state went on a witch hunt. i've seen that same system get away with continuing to violate the parents rights after the parents had been proven innocent. so i do understand how nasty and horrible it can be for the parents who are unjustly hurt when the system doesn't work right. so i do understand how important it is to be careful and keep the system in check.

there are ways to do this right, the ends do not justify the means, but it does need to get done.

[Heather]

I just wanted to give you the heads up that the Church is allowing comments on their YouTube video that "Mormons Have Nothing to do With Texas Polygamy Sect." I responded to one comment about Mormons need to stop referring to themselves as Mormon.

[a-train]

A-train, your suggestion that the government intentionally burned down the building with children is wrong. The report I read does point to stockpiling of explosives within the compound.

Just why do you suppose any government would intentionally burn children? Especially a democratic one? BTW...we are referring to Waco, right?

THE FOLLOWING IS FROM FRONTLINE (PBS):

Who started the fire that erupted a little more than six hours after the FBI began inserting the tear gas on April 19?

Although several of the surviving Branch Davidians insist that they did not start the fire, a panel of arson investigators concluded that the Davidians were responsible for igniting it, simultaneously, in at least three different areas of the compound. Unless they were deliberatley set, the probability of the three fires starting almost simultaneously was highly unlikely, according to fire experts. Furthermore, the videotapes show the use of accelerants that strongly increased the spread of the fire. Although one Branch Davidian stated that a FBI tank had tipped over a lantern, videotapes show that the tank had struck the building a minute and a half before the fire began. Also some of the surviving Davidians' clothing showed evidence of lighter fluid and other accelerants. In addition, FBI listening devices seemed to establish that the Davidians were overheard making statements such as, "Spread the fuel," some six hours before the fires began. (Joint Hearing of the Crime Subcommittee July 1995.)

I saw with my own eyes the broadcast on television of ATF agents lighting the building on fire with a blowtorch mounted on the top of an armoured vehicle.

Your above quote is frankly full of bull.

The ATF burned those people. I don't know why they did, but I saw them do it. It was this very event that made me realize how potentially corrupt things are. There could be no doubt that the ATF did it. The footage showed them showering the building with flames.

They also broadcast footage of the exchange of gunfire that killed the ATF agents and it was clear that they were shooting at one another.

-a-train

[Shell72]

It was reported last night that after the childrens cell phones were confiscated because Social Services felt as though the mothers were phoning the children and coaching them as to what to say - that the women returned to the compound..

This in itself is frightening.

[Shell72]

I saw with my own eyes the broadcast on television of ATF agents lighting the building on fire with a blowtorch mounted on the top of an armoured vehicle.

Your above quote is frankly full of bull.

The ATF burned those people. I don't know why they did, but I saw them do it. It was this very event that made me realize how potentially corrupt things are. There could be no doubt that the ATF did it. The footage showed them showering the building with flames.

They also broadcast footage of the exchange of gunfire that killed the ATF agents and it was clear that they were shooting at one another.

-a-train

I do not believe that for a second - one of the reasons is, there was a child that was stabbed to death in the compound while all of this was going on. The ATF reported hearing systematic gunfire, and they believed a mass suicided was going on. If it were only gun injuries that resulted - then the argument could be made that the AFT inflicted the injuries. The fact that a child was stabbed INSIDE while this was happening adds credence to the ATF claims that a mass suicide was taking place ,and they did the right thing in trying to stop it in my opinion.

[Fiannan]

I do not believe that for a second - one of the reasons is, there was a child that was stabbed to death in the compound while all of this was going on. The ATF reported hearing systematic gunfire, and they believed a mass suicided was going on. If it were only gun injuries that resulted - then the argument could be made that the AFT inflicted the injuries. The fact that a child was stabbed INSIDE while this was happening adds credence to the ATF claims that a mass suicide was taking place ,and they did the right thing in trying to stop it in my opinion.

They burned the village to save it then?

[WillowTheWhisp]

It was reported last night that after the childrens cell phones were confiscated because Social Services felt as though the mothers were phoning the children and coaching them as to what to say - that the women returned to the compound..

This in itself is frightening.

I fear that more harm is being done to these poor children being removed from their homes by force like this and being prevented from contacting either parent. I'm sure there must be something illegal or against their human rights or something. The removal of a child who has complained of abuse is one thing but the removal of all children who have made no such complaint just seems so totally wrong. Couldn't they have at least been removed along with their mothers? Do the powers that be really believe that women have so little love for their own children that they will coach them to lie about sexual abuse? Although we may not approve of polygamy it does not mean that all wives in plural marriages are abused.

[Fiannan]

I fear that more harm is being done to these poor children being removed from their homes by force like this and being prevented from contacting either parent. I'm sure there must be something illegal or against their human rights or something. The removal of a child who has complained of abuse is one thing but the removal of all children who have made no such complaint just seems so totally wrong. Couldn't they have at least been removed along with their mothers? Do the powers that be really believe that women have so little love for their own children that they will coach them to lie about sexual abuse? Although we may not approve of polygamy it does not mean that all wives in plural marriages are abused.

Again, I hope the legal team representing the polygamists sues Texas big time and wins.

[Fiannan]

I saw with my own eyes the broadcast on television of ATF agents lighting the building on fire with a blowtorch mounted on the top of an armoured vehicle.

Your above quote is frankly full of bull.

The ATF burned those people. I don't know why they did, but I saw them do it. It was this very event that made me realize how potentially corrupt things are. There could be no doubt that the ATF did it. The footage showed them showering the building with flames.

They also broadcast footage of the exchange of gunfire that killed the ATF agents and it was clear that they were shooting at one another.

-a-train

a-train, be careful, when you point facts out to people you may get branded a heritic. Also, it is quite uncomfortable to many people when they find out their government does the same type of stuff that we grew up thinking only evil nations did.

Now as for Mormons attacking the FLDS and polygamy as strange or perverse, in psychology there is term called "identification with the agressor" -- it's very much akin to the more pop phrase "Stockholm Syndrome". For years the LDS Church was persecuted for supporting and promoting polygamy. Men were arrested under the Edmund Tucker's Act and the Church darn near went to war with the US government. Stckholm Syndrome refers to becoming like the agressor and adopting his ideals in order to survive or to feel whole.

Perhaps all this history has served to cause Mormons (not all, not even a majority, but a substantial minority) to identify so much with the anti-polygamy (a catch phrase in the 19th. Century for anti Mormon) that they now feel that a practice which is still part of the Church, although temporarily suspended, is horrid and people who actually practice it are vile, corrupt people who may deserve to have their kids tken away (something the government did not do in the 19th. Century).

If you may fall into the "Let's stick it to the FLDS" flock then please, the next time in Gospel Doctrine class that Governor Bogg's name comes up could you raise your hand and please defend him? If you judge against the FLDS for practicing what Mormons did in the past then maybe you may be in philosophical partnership with the anti-Mormons who drove the Mormons out of the east and midwest in the first place.

[madjen38]

We have to be careful here. As there are just as many children that are safe and have been removed from their mother's, there are many that are not. I KNOW that there are many injustices and immoral acts, being done in Heavenly Father's name that are emotionally and spiritually destructive in the environment of the RLDS compound. Its wrong and if protecting those that are in danger means being overzealous and separation for a few "in the meantime", than so be it! I have personal experience in this area and can attest that many among the followers of Warren Jeffs have issues far beyond just wanting to live polygamy and motives less than altruistic. ANYONE who forces a women/young girl/child into marriage is not acting from a pure place. End of sentence.

My husband and I have pained over this tragedy for days now. How horrible for these kids to possibly end up in a home that has not comprehension of where they have been through. I pray many an LDS family in the area would step up and offer their homes. At least there is a base from which to work. We feel helpless for the children AND the mothers, since most of the mothers have never been outside the compound as well. This is ALL they know, as well.

I wish there was something we could DO....

[RachelleDrew]

I think Fiannan mentioned in a previous post that his fear was that the children would be "de-programmed" in such a way that would pit them against the LDS faith as a whole. I must admit, as much as I want those people to be safe from abuse I was scared of that too.

However, I saw something in the paper that made me feel better. One of the local churches donated an organ for the mothers and children who are still being housed by the government so they could have music for their church services while away from their home. This leads me to the belief that they are being allowed to worship as they please. I didn't expect that at all.

Thus far i've been pleased at the way the media has handled this. I really figured they would make no difference between the FLDS and the more modern Mormon churches, and lead the public to believe that all LDS are cultish. So far I haven't witnessed that, but of course i'm sure there are some who go out of their way to smear the church's name.

[Gwen]

If you judge against the FLDS for practicing what Mormons did in the past then maybe you may be in philosophical partnership with the anti-Mormons who drove the Mormons out of the east and midwest in the first place.

"mormons" have never practiced what the flds practice. to make such a comparison only blurs the line between them and us making it more confusing to ppl that don't know who we are. please be very careful.

[Fiannan]

"mormons" have never practiced what the flds practice. to make such a comparison only blurs the line between them and us making it more confusing to ppl that don't know who we are. please be very careful.

The definging variable in this whole debate is polygamy. Can you be specific in what the differences are/were? Yes, throughout Brigham Young's life, for instance, he only took brides who volunteered to be his brides at the age of 18 or above. but there were other marriages between men who were 30 or 40 something and young teenagers.

On a related topic let me ask, do you think there are some Muslims out there in the US who are teaching their children these lessons:

YouTube - Muslim Sesame Street V: Pepsi Cola, the Apes, Pigs and Jews

Wonder if the US government will go after them for child abuse?

[madjen38]

First, in Brighams day, it was not uncommon for younger girls to marry. My grandma was married at age 12. HOWEVER, its not like it was a healthy thing and time has taught us that there are harms in OLDER men (MOST WELL OVER 30) becoming sexually involved (lets not forget using that word) with girls under the legal age. Second, its illegal now and we are instructed to obey the laws of the land. Period. Thirdly, the government IS right now, having issues with any religious organization that engages in inappropriate sexual practices. If you lived in an area where there is a predominant muslim community and had friends within those communities you would know that HERE in the U.S., LEGAL age is never ignored. POLYGAMY is not practiced by MUSLIMS in the US and only rarely outside the US. Just as we cannot regulate the teachings of any one's religion on what ultimately they think is truth and their moral code, WE CAN and SHOULD regulate behavior that is in danger or harming or causing harm to those that are helpless. We are talking about MINOR CHILDREN engaging in sexual practices with OLDER MEN. In order for them to protect those that are at risk and engaged in that behavior, they had to separate. I do not believe that their motives are anything other than just that.