Is American public education a form of child abuse?

[Fiannan]

Is American public education a form of child abuse? A week ago, The Washington Post's Brigid Schulte reported on a student named Randy Castro who attends school in Woodbridge, Virginia. Last November at recess he slapped a classmate on her bottom. The teacher took him to the principal. School officials wrote up an incident report and then called the police.

Randy Castro is in the First Grade. But, at the ripe old age of six, he's been declared a sex offender by Potomac View Elementary School. He's guilty of sexual harassment, and the incident report will remain on his record for the rest of his schooldays — and maybe beyond. Maybe it'll be one of those things that just keeps turning up on background checks forever and ever: Perhaps 34-year old Randy Castro will apply for a job and at his prospective employer's computer up will pop his sexual-harasser status yet again.

Already Guilty at 6 | The New York Sun

This whole zero tolerance thing is totally absurd. The only thing that schools do not seem to have a zero tolerance for is for bullies beating up on kids. I suppose if a bully were to beat your kid up you could complain to the school administrator -- use both a verbal and written complaint but do be careful not to use really big words -- and say you were filing suit for the bully subjecting your kid to sado masochistic abuse. That might get something done.

[a-train]

LOL

-a-train

[crytsprospect]

Out of control. The pendulum has swung so far the other way that it is ridiculous. a town near us suspended a second grader for drawing stick figures pointing stick guns at each other. We are lucky to live in a small school district in the mountains. Pretty centered teachers who have children going to the same school.

[Guest Lexish]

Another absurd aspect of school:

At my school if someone gets hit and hits back then the VICTIM gets in equal trouble for hitting. Self-defense is not allowed. Does that make sense? If someone literally attacks someone else in the school and the other person defends himself then he is in trouble. Same goes for sexual harassment; slapping someone for actually doing something sexual is not allowed.

I don't know who made these rules, but I think they definitely need to be reworked.

It's sad what people think is necessary. If they keep thinking it is necessary then it probably will become so.

[melissar]

The zero tolerance policy has gotten so out of control it is ridiculous. I am seriously considering home schooling because I don't feel my children are learning enough in school. My two oldest have learning delays and I worry that their teachers are just passing them off without them learning what they should.

[Guest Lexish]

The keys to learning in school are (1) wanting to, (2) seeking out the classes that mean anything, (3) keeping the real goal in mind. It is possible in almost every public school to have a great education, we just need to work harder and put forth a real effort. The teachers usually have too hard of a time to keep things going smoothly on their own.

[Canuck Mormon]

The stupidest thing I heard the other day is that at my nephew's school they do not have detention, they have "bonding club" . I nearly spat my food out when I heard that.

[NeuroTypical]

No, public education is not a form of child abuse. It's not abuse to create fools and follwers of socialism who can't think for themselves. It's not abuse to teach the exact opposite of what a parent might believe (self defense is ok, zero tolerance is stupid, chastity is possible, etc).

No, this stuff isn't child abuse. And calling it so, merely adds unnecessary sensationalism and lowers credibility of the person making the claim. It's bad, it's a travesty, it's something to be fought with a righteous attitude and a steamroller, but it's not child abuse.

Or, to put it another way, if it is child abuse, it's the parents who are responsible for the abuse, as long as there are other options going unused.

Summary of Homeschooling Laws by State

LM

[MorningStar]

The stupidest thing I heard the other day is that at my nephew's school they do not have detention, they have "bonding club" . I nearly spat my food out when I heard that.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!! That is ridiculous!!!!! Bonding club ....

I just called my son's teacher because this same kids who keeps bothering him was punching him in the face on the bus. She was very glad I called. Sometimes I think maybe I should have that kid over to play so I can figure out if this is a one sided thing and help him learn why he shouldn't be doing that to people. I caught him shoving another kid into the table when I was volunteering in their class and that one was unprovoked. They're only in Kindergarten, but his parents need to nip that in the bud.

[MorningStar]

Another absurd aspect of school:

At my school if someone gets hit and hits back then the VICTIM gets in equal trouble for hitting. Self-defense is not allowed. Does that make sense? If someone literally attacks someone else in the school and the other person defends himself then he is in trouble. Same goes for sexual harassment; slapping someone for actually doing something sexual is not allowed.

I don't know who made these rules, but I think they definitely need to be reworked.

It's sad what people think is necessary. If they keep thinking it is necessary then it probably will become so.

There was a conversation about that at mormonapologetics recently. That absolutely floors me, but I know a girl who got attacked by a group and she was suspended.

[a-train]

There was a conversation about that at mormonapologetics recently. That absolutely floors me, but I know a girl who got attacked by a group and she was suspended.

So knowing this, the kids get in as many hits as they can because its on.

-a-train

[mightynancy]

Yes, American Public Education is CHILD ABUSE! Every bit of it! Every teacher is just there to collect a (huge, undeserved) paycheck and pass the kids on to the dolt teacher in the next grade. Every administrator is a power hungry communist indoctrinator!

Get real. Yes, there are examples of idiocy in every organization. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. For you non-library types (or the publicly-educated), that means you shouldn't throw out good stuff with the bad.

On one hand, critics of public education decry the incompetence of teachers. On the other hand, they claim that The System is making American children into mind-numbed liberal commies. Quite a feat for a bunch of idiots, no? Which is it?

[rosie321]

Get real. Yes, there are examples of idiocy in every organization. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. For you non-library types (or the publicly-educated), that means you shouldn't throw out good stuff with the bad.

On one hand, critics of public education decry the incompetence of teachers. On the other hand, they claim that The System is making American children into mind-numbed liberal commies. Quite a feat for a bunch of idiots, no? Which is it?

Can you honestly say that the system is not abusive? Please.

The American public education system is abusive, as well intentioned as it might be. Sure there are good teachers out there. Thank Goodness!

Have you looked at the standards that are being promoted? It's shameful! It goes way beyond learning how to get along with others and pushes propoganda. Look at why many Californians are choosing to pull their children out of school? Why is that? The state has some of the most liberal legislations on the books. Evil is made good and good evil.

Can you honestly say that the educational system is working? It's a travesty! Consider the statistics. Look at the graduation rates, particularly in the inner cities. Look at the volence and crime rates against students in schools. Look at the ways in which the victims of crime are handled. Look at the drop outs rates. What are children able to do once they drop out? To not stop this hemmorhaging of students from schools onto the streets is abuse. Consider the NCLB and the devastating consequences it has created in schools. Look at the unions. Its appalling with all the knowledge and money our educational system has within its grasp that it cannot do a better job of educating our children.

The American Educational System is abusive! The alternatives to it have demonstrated a far better record in the sucessful development of an educated citizenry.

Please explain why you feel the system is not abusive. The record is what it is. Look it up.

[a-train]

My personal experience in school was filled with a lot of extras that got in the way of real education. I spent more time moving from class to class, dealing with logistics, etc., than actually receiving good instruction. We spent a great deal of classes just shooting the breeze with the teacher.

I often wanted to say: 'You have me here at 7:00 in the morning, are you going to teach anything or what?' My favorite teachers were the no nonsense types that cut right to the subject and got into real lessons. In a 40 minute class, 30 minutes of teaching and 10 on a quiz over what was just discussed was great.

I don't buy into some big over-arching conspiracy theory regarding education in America. But, I do believe that we have over-regulated it and have been unwise with our funding. We also focus too much on behavior. An example is the length of time and effort used to battle mp3 players, hats, yo-yos, or whatever else is deemed a distraction and banned. Generally the ban itself causes more trouble than the toy.

I personally don't care if a student is listening to notorious b.i.g. and chewing gum while writing love letters in class, if they can pass the tests we need to move on.

-a-train

[VisionOfLehi]

I received all of my education in Iowa schools. Iowa is generally in the top 10 of the states, education-wise.

I found it extremely lacking, and getting progressively worse.

Now, I can't speak too much for junior high, except for the lack of attending to my educational needs in a behavior disorder classroom.

But in high school, this is what I find:

Classes are often geared towards the "learn it now, forget it after the test," and "if you do all your homework, you'll still pass, even if you get most of it wrong," styles. I HATE these.

Actual absorption of information isn't really encouraged, because students usually don't have to take comprehensive exams. (That is, semester exams that cover ALL of the material gone over so far that term.) And, when I DID have to take them, they were always geared to be easier for the students, because "boo hoo we haven't done that work in 3 months"

The majority of my semester exams were just normal chapter exams. There was no need to remember anything beyond the current chapter.

I had way too many teachers who would give you credit just for doing all of the homework. They'd give copious amounts of busywork, and if you did it you got points... even if EVERY answer was wrong... so long as you showed your work.

That's ridiculous. It coddles to those who don't study properly, or don't seek out further help.

I also had a fair number of classes that had CUT AND PASTE and POSTER projects. What grade am I in? It seems like 3rd, but I thought it was 12th...

Classes should be test-oriented, and the tests should be harder and more comprehensive. For those who have test anxiety, there needs to be a system in place for them to still be able to take the test to their ability.

As far as silly rules... I believe the no self-defense was one we had, too. If you got into a fight, you were both suspended. If you defended yourself, then they couldn't press charges, so long as you didn't become the aggressor. But the school system would still punish you for fighting back.

The parents generally don't care. For instance, if a guy grabs a girl anywhere inappropriate, all she's allowed to do is report it. The parents I know would say she should give him hard kick between the legs. She'd end up suspended, and the parents would take her out for ice cream for a job well done.

I'm an artist... I doodled on EVERYTHING during class. It helps me focus, or lets me complete ignore what the teacher is going on about. Anyway, for awhile I was on a sci-fi kick and was drawing some laser guns. Just... non-firing, laser guns, not aimed at anything, not even held in a hand. I got called into the office about my completely unrealistic designs, because a teacher was "worried." About... what? My depraved future-self time traveling back to high school with laser weapons?

The "zero tolerance" policy should not be a "zero sensibility" policy, as well.

Abuse? No. Intellectual neglect? Yes.

[ruthiechan]

They let me skate by. I would ditch all the time and hardly ever do any work. I remember one semester getting a D- in English. Everything else were either incompletes or Fs. My GPA that semester was 0.19.

That D- counted towards my total units. . .

EDIT: a-train what extras are you refering to? VoL: I believe standardized tests should not be used until the age of fourteen. Norway is like that and they have a great educational results.

[mightynancy]

I guess the public elementary where I spend my days is a shining light in the darkness. Huh, you'd think there'd be some news or something! To read opinions here you'd think we were some odd exception.

A few examples from my small school (two sections of K, 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6, one section of 5):

Regarding in-school crime and how it's handled: The kid who threw a chair at a teacher was immediately suspended. His track record was pretty bad. He was eventually classified ED and moved to a special program where he has flourished. He was in second grade at the time.

Regarding fights and self-defense: When kids fight, they're generally in-housed (still working at school, but away from the class). We DO teach them a better way to handle the disagreement. When you know better, you do better. Is the "Peace Wheel" silly? Yeah, sort of. Does it work for the kids? Yes. They learn to manage conflict in an effective way.

Regarding results: We have taken kids into kindergarten with NO pre-literacy skills and gotten them to grade level reading by the middle of first grade. We have several kids getting "informal" speech/language services because they need them, but just barely don't qualify for the IEP. That would be because we care about their learning, in case you're having trouble figuring out the motivation.

We are a Title 1 school. That means that well over half of our students live in poverty. Some have wonderful families. Others have parents who are on drugs or mentally ill. Still others are abused in any number of ways. Some arrive at school covered in flea bites. Many come hungry. I have seen parents come in the school high or drunk to pick up their kids.

Now yes, everything in the above paragraph is up to the parents. But the question is, when parents aren't parenting, who will put a coat on a child or give him breakfast? Who will teach him to respect others? Who will show him a better way to handle conflict? Who will teach him to manage his time? That would be the school. Before you go crying "Socialist!" or "Communist!" go read the 25th chapter of Matthew. We're not trying to usurp the parents' authority. Educators are a practical lot. If a kid is cold, put a coat on him and give him mittens. It's that simple.

I know that education today isn't perfect. I also know that every day the 20+ people at my workplace bust their butts because they care about the kids, both academically and as citizens and human beings. I pray daily for the kids who worry me. I work after hours to find activities to engage the reluctant kids as well as the gifted kids. To paint an entire profession with the brush colored by a few idiots is shortsighted at best and self-righteous arrogance at worst.

[Alaskagain]

You sound like a great teacher, mightynancy! Thank you!

[VisionOfLehi]

I don't blame the teachers. To me, it's the administration.

ruthiechan: I don't mean standardized tests... Though they're good to use on young children, too, but not for pass/fail kind of things. I just mean regular tests/exams/quizzes.

Standardized tests can help schools discern individual children's needs. Learning DISABLED kids can be picked out by their low scores. I myself was identified as needing Talented & Gifted classes after taking the ITBS in 1st grade. (Iowa Test of Basic Skills.)

[Annabelli]

Use 50% of the federal education budget to give every American a check and tell them to find their own school! Use 50% of the same budget to hire a private consultant to find a way to make Home Schoolers ACCOUNTABLE! Post date the check to the private consultant to be cashed 12 years from date issued!

[Fiannan]

Use 50% of the federal education budget to give every American a check and tell them to find their own school!

Wow, sounds a lot like how they do it in Sweden! The second half (when you mention home schooling) isn't part of their system though as countries like Germany, Sweden and Belgium are a little scared to allow individual parents too many rights over their kids.

[NeuroTypical]

Use 50% of the federal education budget to give every American a check and tell them to find their own school!

Sign me up - we homeschool, and we'd put that money to good use.

Use 50% of the same budget to hire a private consultant to find a way to make Home Schoolers ACCOUNTABLE! Post date the check to the private consultant to be cashed 12 years from date issued!

Not sure what you mean here. Homeschooling laws vary from state to state - what sort of federal mandated accountability standards to you want to impose on everyone? Here in CO, we need to submit standardized test scores every few years - you want more?

A few things to consider:

* Why the automatic jump to assume that the govt knows what's best, and parents need to be held accountable to the govt?

* What data are you looking at that says homeschooling has a problem? (hint - if it's the tragic stories about abuse and neglect you see on the news - those are anecdotes - not data)

LM

[DigitalShadow]

I received all of my education in Iowa schools. Iowa is generally in the top 10 of the states, education-wise.

I found it extremely lacking, and getting progressively worse.

Now, I can't speak too much for junior high, except for the lack of attending to my educational needs in a behavior disorder classroom.

But in high school, this is what I find:

Classes are often geared towards the "learn it now, forget it after the test," and "if you do all your homework, you'll still pass, even if you get most of it wrong," styles. I HATE these.

Actual absorption of information isn't really encouraged, because students usually don't have to take comprehensive exams. (That is, semester exams that cover ALL of the material gone over so far that term.) And, when I DID have to take them, they were always geared to be easier for the students, because "boo hoo we haven't done that work in 3 months"

The majority of my semester exams were just normal chapter exams. There was no need to remember anything beyond the current chapter.

I had way too many teachers who would give you credit just for doing all of the homework. They'd give copious amounts of busywork, and if you did it you got points... even if EVERY answer was wrong... so long as you showed your work.

That's ridiculous. It coddles to those who don't study properly, or don't seek out further help.

I also had a fair number of classes that had CUT AND PASTE and POSTER projects. What grade am I in? It seems like 3rd, but I thought it was 12th...

Classes should be test-oriented, and the tests should be harder and more comprehensive. For those who have test anxiety, there needs to be a system in place for them to still be able to take the test to their ability.

As far as silly rules... I believe the no self-defense was one we had, too. If you got into a fight, you were both suspended. If you defended yourself, then they couldn't press charges, so long as you didn't become the aggressor. But the school system would still punish you for fighting back.

The parents generally don't care. For instance, if a guy grabs a girl anywhere inappropriate, all she's allowed to do is report it. The parents I know would say she should give him hard kick between the legs. She'd end up suspended, and the parents would take her out for ice cream for a job well done.

I'm an artist... I doodled on EVERYTHING during class. It helps me focus, or lets me complete ignore what the teacher is going on about. Anyway, for awhile I was on a sci-fi kick and was drawing some laser guns. Just... non-firing, laser guns, not aimed at anything, not even held in a hand. I got called into the office about my completely unrealistic designs, because a teacher was "worried." About... what? My depraved future-self time traveling back to high school with laser weapons?

The "zero tolerance" policy should not be a "zero sensibility" policy, as well.

Abuse? No. Intellectual neglect? Yes.

I agree with you completely. I've had issues with school my whole life, not because I was a bad or disruptive kid (I've never had so much as a detention) but because it was boring. It was all about busywork and rote memorization rather than emphasizing actual learning, applying skills and critical thinking skills. Memorization was easy for me, homework was pointless and tests were easy.

I ended up dropping out and getting my GED (I could have passed the test when I was 6, it was pretty rediculous). I fiddled around with community college for a while before moving to Utah to go to a tech school focused on software development which I had already taught myself quite a bit of. I was bored there too, and paying way too much money for it, so I ended up dropping out since I was recruited for a full time job in software development using my self-taught skills.

It is true that if I had finished my degree I would get probably 10k - 15k more per year starting out, but I'm confident I can more than prove my worth at any company once they hire me and quickly climb up the ranks.

The moral of the story? Well, in my opinion school and learning are not necessarily connected. Many people go through school learning almost nothing and many people learn quite a bit without the help of school. No one can make you learn, if you have the desire to learn, you'll find a way, especially given the wealth of resources available to kids today through the internet. What I find both depressing and amazing is that schools today seem to be killing the natural instinct for kids to WANT to learn and turning it into a horrible chore that is to be avoided. To me, that is the real abuse and it is what caused the blatant anti-intellectualism you see in America today.

[JohnBirchSociety]

I agree with you completely. I've had issues with school my whole life, not because I was a bad or disruptive kid (I've never had so much as a detention) but because it was boring. It was all about busywork and rote memorization rather than emphasizing actual learning, applying skills and critical thinking skills. Memorization was easy for me, homework was pointless and tests were easy.

I ended up dropping out and getting my GED (I could have passed the test when I was 6, it was pretty rediculous). I fiddled around with community college for a while before moving to Utah to go to a tech school focused on software development which I had already taught myself quite a bit of. I was bored there too, and paying way too much money for it, so I ended up dropping out since I was recruited for a full time job in software development using my self-taught skills.

It is true that if I had finished my degree I would get probably 10k - 15k more per year starting out, but I'm confident I can more than prove my worth at any company once they hire me and quickly climb up the ranks.

The moral of the story? Well, in my opinion school and learning are not necessarily connected. Many people go through school learning almost nothing and many people learn quite a bit without the help of school. No one can make you learn, if you have the desire to learn, you'll find a way, especially given the wealth of resources available to kids today through the internet. What I find both depressing and amazing is that schools today seem to be killing the natural instinct for kids to WANT to learn and turning it into a horrible chore that is to be avoided. To me, that is the real abuse and it is what caused the blatant anti-intellectualism you see in America today.

Friends, no good fruit can come from a bad tree.

The concept of Public Education comes from the tree of Marxist communism and is bad. No amount of money will improve it.

We need to return to a free market educational system which made this nation great.

[sgallan]

Or, to put it another way, if it is child abuse, it's the parents who are responsible for the abuse, as long as there are other options going unused.

On the otherhand I am homeschooling. I teach, about legitimate science (see several other threads on this topic). I am mostly teaching away from religion and a belief in God, in a specific systematic manner. I am teaching about safe sex - but wait until you are at least over 18 and only then with a significant other.....the whole wait until marraige thing isn't really an issue. I have my child participate in a male dominated sport, against males, with physical contact. And I let her wear make-up at age 12. And on and on.... any number of issues many on this board would frown upon (to say the least).

Am I also a child abuser too?

Be honest, I can take it.