What does this mean...perdition..

[tiancum]

I found an interesting little something. What does it mean to you guys?

For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world.

He was called perdition before the world??

Does that mean he made the choice to follow satan in the Preex? I f so why was he given a body? Could satan have told him to follow God, just like he did when he told Cain to make an offering to God? ( I always thought it was weird that Satan told him to do what God wanted him to) Knowing he needed a spy...or general...or Chief Anti Christ here on earth?

[Vanhin]

Here's some ideas I had on the topic.

25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—

29 Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.

30 And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:

31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born; (D&C 76:25-31)

It seems to me that Perdition is a name/title give to those who know the power of God, "and have been made partakers thereof", and then denied the truth and His power. It specifically appears to have been given to Lucifer when he committed the unpardonable, and also to Cain, who before his sin knew the Lord and his power. It must be interchangeable with "sons of perdition", but maybe more emphasis given to Cain since he was the first on this earth and would rule over Satan (because at least Cain will have a resurrected body). Just some thoughts.

Perdition is also referred to as a place. (Perdition)

Also from the account of Moses where your original quote came from:

23 If thou doest well, thou shalt be accepted. And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door, and Satan desireth to have thee; and except thou shalt hearken unto my commandments, I will deliver thee up, and it shall be unto thee according to his desire. And thou shalt rule over him; (Moses 5:23)

I don't think it was a foregone conclusion that Cain had to become Perdition. Based on the scripture above, it seems he could have chosen right and the Lord was giving him a chance. But it would be safe to say the Lord knew what was in his heart already at that point.

Vanhin

[Hemidakota]

I found an interesting little something. What does it mean to you guys?

He was called perdition before the world??

Does that mean he made the choice to follow satan in the Preex? I f so why was he given a body? Could satan have told him to follow God, just like he did when he told Cain to make an offering to God? ( I always thought it was weird that Satan told him to do what God wanted him to) Knowing he needed a spy...or general...or Chief Anti Christ here on earth?

Adding to Vanhin statement, let us go back and revisit that verse that was written in Genesis that was corrected from the Prophet Joseph Smith:

JST Gen 5:10 Thou shalt be called Perdition, for thou wast also before the world, and it shall be said in time to come, that these abominations were had from Cain, for he rejected the greater counsel, which was had from God; and this is a cursing which I will put upon thee, except thou repent.

Cain was not perdition at this time. Why? First, he had a mortal body , where Lucifer who become Satan [Father of all lies] became Perdition after his rebellion. This title was not given to him until the Father knew he would not repent. Now, what was the cursing that Moses was referring too in above verse? Being called perdition. What is perdition? Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith stated:

Cain sinned with his eyes open, so he became Perdition, the father of lies. (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols)

Who eyes is open to not only the Godhead, but privy to other heavenly scenes, knowledge, while holding the priesthood, he thus rebelled.

Reading Moses Chapter five, you will realize what presented his downfall and Satan knew of his weaknesses and used them against

to ensure his fall.

Moses 5:17 thru 21 it reads,

17 And she again conceived and bare his brother Abel. And Abel hearkened unto the voice of the Lord. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

18 And Cain loved Satan more than God. And Satan commanded him, saying: Make an offering unto the Lord.

19 And in process of time it came to pass that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.

20 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock, and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel, and to his offering;

21 But unto Cain, and to his offering, he had not respect. Now Satan knew this, and it pleased him. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

But this offering, so advocated by Lucifer, was not in accordance with the commandments of God and, therefore, was a deception. What was the offering that Cain was supposed to bring to the alter? What was Adam commanded to do for a sacrifice in the similitude of the First Born sacrifice that will come in the median of time? Is to offer the choices firstling of the flock to the Lord upon the alter. Instead, he offered fruit of the land. [Moses 5:23–24] The Lord God, detecting this, told Cain that he could still be saved from Lucifer if he would hearken to his words, but if he would not, that notwithstanding he would rule over Satan, (because of a resurrected body) he nevertheless would become the father of all lies to the children of men. Cain now perdition, was done by his initiation of these principles unto the children of men upon the earth.

Scriptures pointed out, two individuals, namely Cain and Satan, have received the name-title ‘Perdition.’ To simplify the definition, the name signifies that they have no hope whatever of any degree of salvation, that they have wholly given themselves up to iniquity, and that any feeling of righteousness whatever has been destroyed in their soul. Now, both had great administrative ability and persuasive power in pre-existence, but both were rebellious and iniquitous from eternity. (D. & C. 76:25-27; 2 Nephi 2:17-18.) Both, Cain and Lucifer, came out in open rebellion against God having a perfect knowledge that their course was contrary to all righteousness.

Tiacum, Lucifer was denied a tabernacle for his spirit body, but Cain has gained one, and as a consequence has a position of pre-eminence over the devil. To Cain the Lord said: "Satan desireth to have thee; and it shall be unto thee according to his desire. And thou shalt rule over him; For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world." (Moses 5:18). So essence, Satan needed Cain.

Hopefully between Vanhin statement and this brief statement, it makes sense.

[bert10]

Hi.

It means before the world was...we were the Children of Light [truth]. Obviously Cain the first born of Adam and Eve was a great Spirit before the world was...deserving the honor to be the first man born of woman on the earth.

When a person comes into the knowledge and becomes Enlightened which is the testimony of Christ and then reject it....He is putting himself beyond the power of repentance and so those who do this are called Sons of Perdition or Sons of Cain.

For it is Impossible for those who have become ENLIGHTENED and have tasted the following below if they fall away to be renewed unto repentance by the power of the Holy Ghost so that they could be forgiven by God if: [i have put the verses of Hebrews 6:4-6 in the form of a list for ease of understanding.]

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted:[The Following below] If they shall fall away,[after becoming Elightened] to renew them again unto repentance.

1. tasted of the heavenly gift; and were

2. made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

3. tasted the good word of God; and

4. Tasted the powers of the world to come,

Hebrews 6:4 - For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Hebrews 6:5 - And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Hebrews 6:6 - If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I hope this helps.

Peace be unto you

bert10

I found an interesting little something. What does it mean to you guys?

He was called perdition before the world??

Does that mean he made the choice to follow satan in the Preex? I f so why was he given a body? Could satan have told him to follow God, just like he did when he told Cain to make an offering to God? ( I always thought it was weird that Satan told him to do what God wanted him to) Knowing he needed a spy...or general...or Chief Anti Christ here on earth?

[tiancum]

I totally agree with what you guys are saying...

I am not communicating what I want.

The scripture says he was called perdition in the preexistence.

I know he still had his choice....But I wanna know why god was calling him names in the preex.

[skalenfehl]

We read in Moses 5:24 that he was "also before the world", but not called perdition before the world was, because he was not among the 1/3 of hosts of heaven that followed Lucifer.

per lds.org:

In the Book of Mormon, therefore, as in the Bible, two distinct states are referred to as “hell.” One is the temporary condition of the wicked between death and the resurrection. The other is the never-ending state of the wicked for whom there is no mercy because they, “like unto the son of perdition” (3 Ne. 29:7; John 17:12), have rejected the mercy of Christ and would sell him “for silver and for gold, and for that which moth doth corrupt.” (3 Ne. 27:32.) These are they, called perdition and the sons of perdition, who come out “in open rebellion against God” and “listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness. …

“Therefore [their] final doom is to endure a never-ending torment.” (Mosiah 2:37, 39; see also 2 Pet. 3:7; Rev. 20:13–15; D&C 76:31–46.)

He is therefore called perdition as also the 1/3 of the hosts of heaven were called perdition because he "openly rebelled against God and chose to obey the evil spirit" (Lucifer).

[Hemidakota]

Concur

[tiancum]

I see, so it's like God was saying...

"You are perdition......oh and by the way, you existed before you came to earth."

It is an interesting time to teach him this truth... Maybe he was saying...You made the right choices BEFORE for billions of years, WHY are you such a poop NOW, in just a few years?

[skalenfehl]

He's basically warning Cain that his offering is not acceptable and if he continues in open rebellion as did Lucifer and his 1/3, he will become the father of all lies. I suppose this to mean he is the first truly wicked man to walk the earth. From him we have secret combinations, etc. He is Master Mahan.

LDS.org - Liahona Article - Cain and Abel

[Hemidakota]

Let me add something further that may shed some further light with gaining such level in order to become 'Perdition'. One of the key that validates this fall, the individual will have to receive Jesus Christ in this probation - means seeing him. He can only be received by the Holy Spirit.

[tiancum]

I know many believe that one needs to have thier calling and election made sure...and then fall, to achieve 'SOP' status.

I don't think I agree. Although the Son reveals himself to those (old and young) who have had their calling and election made sure, you may have this witness without it.

It is a reachable goal to actually see Christ...as the DnC 93 says, we need to do 5 things.

-forsaketh our sins (repent)

-cometh unto Him

-call on His name

-obeyeth His voice

-and keepeth his commandments.

He doesn't demand perfection, just sanctification.

It seems like once you have had this experience, you would want it again and again.

[Hemidakota]

I need to back up on what I just stated, as to Tiancum correction. Sometimes I am not collectively coherent in my detailing my thoughts to the keyboard. Yes! I do blame those other Neurotic intelligences in not collaborating with me. Trying to convey everything, like Moses, he required Aaron to be his spokesperson. You can clearly see, this is a flaw in my character. I do apologize. :)

Yes Tiancum. You are correct. The further reward of such person will have the privilege of the Second Comforter. However, I will add, Cain did knowingly, seen the Godhead, heard their voices, and perhaps, witnessed other greater things. You still remember, Moses wrote that Cain responded to God [savior I suspect] and conversed with HIM.

Now what maybe helping hand, I posted the prophets thoughts as he tried to convey the same message concerning the 'Doctrine of Election.'

The Doctrine of Election

St Paul exhorts us to make our Calling & Election shure. [Ref 6] This is that sealing power spoken of by Paul in other places (See Eph I. 13.14. In whom ye also trusted, that after ye heard the word of truth; the gospel of your salvation, in whom also after that ye believed ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise. Which is the earnest of our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possession unto the praise of his glory.) That we may be sealed up unto the day of redemption, this principle ought. (in its proper place [Ref 7]) to be taught, for God hath not revealed any thing to Joseph, but what he will make known unto the Twelve & even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to-bear them. for the day must come when no man need say to his neighbor know ye the Lord for all shall know him (who Remain) from the least to the greatest, How is this to be done? It is to be done by this sealing power & the other comforter spoken of which will be manifest by Revelation. There is two Comforters spoken of is the Holy Ghost the same as given on the day of pentecost and that all Saints receive after faith. Repentance & Baptism. This first comforter or Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure inteligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind enlightening the understanding & storeing the intellect with present knowledge of a man who is of the literal Seed of Abraham than one that is a gentile though it may not have half as much visible effect upon the body for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the Literal Seed of Abraham it is calm & serene & his whole soul & body are only exercised by the pure spirit of Inteligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile is to purge out the old blood & make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost, in such a case there may be more of a powerful effect upon the body & visible to the eye than upon an Israelite, while the Israelite at first might be far before the

Gentile in pure inteligence

The other Comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest & perhaps understood by few of this generation, After a person hath faith in Christ, repents of his sins & is Baptized for the remission of his sins & received the Holy Ghost (by the laying on of hands) which is the first Comforter then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering & thirsting after Righteousness. & living by every word of God & the Lord will soon say unto him Son thou shalt be exalted. &c When the Lord has thoroughly proved him & finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazard. then the man will find his calling & Election made sure then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter which the Lord hath promised the saints as is recorded in the testimony of St John in the XIV ch from the 12th to the 27 verses Note the 16. 17. 18. 21. 23. verses. (16.vs) & I will pray the father & he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; (17) Even the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him; but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you & shall be in you. (18) I will not leave you comfortless. I will come to you (21) He that hath my commandments & keepeth them, he it is that loveth me. & he that loveth me shall be loved of my father. & I will love him & will manifest myself to him (23) If a man Love me he will keep my words. & my Father will love him. & we will come unto him, & make our abode with him.

Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more or less than the Lord Jesus Christ himself & this is the sum & substance of the whole matter, that when any man obtains this last Comforter he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him or appear unto him from time to time. & even he will manifest the Father unto him & they will take up their abode with him, & the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him & the Lord will teach him face to face & he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God, & this is the state & place the Ancient Saints arrived at when they had such glorious vision Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, St Paul in the third heavens, & all the Saints who held communion with the general Assembly & Church of the First Born &c.

(Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of the Prophet Joseph, compiled and edited by Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, p.4-5)

Reference 6: It is possible that Joseph Smith said, "St Peter exhorts us to make our Calling and Election sure": the phraseology is Peter's not Paul's (2 Peter 1:10). On the other hand, Joseph does say in the next sentence that when Paul speaks of the sealing power (2 Corinthians 1:20-22; Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30), he is speaking of the doctrine of making our calling and election sure. More significant, however, is the fact that this is the first record we have of discourse by the Prophet Joseph on this doctrine using Peter's words "calling and election sure." To be sure the general concept was taught as early as 1834 because Oliver Cowdery says that the Saints "make their calling and election sure" when they "obtain the promise from the Lord of glory ('hear his voice[and receive] a promise from his mouth') that their salvation was sealed that their election was sure" (see The Evening and The Morning Star 2 [June 1834]: 167). Furthermore, in 1835 Joseph Smith wrote to his uncle Silas to convince him that revelation was still necessary, reasoning that the modern Saints had to hear an audible voice from the Lord by revelation to know that their salvation was secure, just as their ancient counterparts had received such assurances by revelation. However, in this letter Joseph Smith made no allusion to Peter's "calling and election" wording (Oliver R. Smith, ed., Six Decades in the Early West: The Journal of Jesse Nathaniel Smith; Diaries of a Mormon Pioneer, 1834-1906. 3d ed. [Provo, Utah: Jesse N. Smith Family Association, 1970], pp. 3-4). These instructions by the Prophet Joseph on making one's calling and election sure reminded Heber C. Kimball (who undoubtedly was present at this meeting) of an experience just two months previous. He recorded in his journal, "[On 6 April 1839] the following words came to my mind, and the Spirit said unto me, 'write,' which I did by taking a piece of paper and writing on my knee as follows:'Verily I say unto my servant Heber, thou art my son, in whom I am well pleased; for thou art careful to hearken to my words, and not transgress my law, nor rebel against my servant Joseph Smith, for thou hast a respect to the words of mine anointed, even from the least to the greatest of them; therefore thy name is written in heaven, no more to be blotted out for ever, because of these things" (Heber C. Kimball, Journal, Library-Archives, the Historical Department of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah [hereafter referred to as Church Archives]).

Reference 7. As Joseph Smith here defines it, making one's calling and election sure is the crowning achievement of a life of righteous devotion. However, the Prophet apparently senses that if this concept is too commonly taught it could easily generate within the Church a misguided devotion to a principle that could divert the Saints' energy from the equally important principle of selfless devotion to others. Seeking blessings for oneself only is contrary to the principle that "He that loseth his life for my sake shall find it" (Matthew 10:39).

Hopefully that was detailed enough and not 'information overload'.

[Traveler]

I totally agree with what you guys are saying...

I am not communicating what I want.

The scripture says he was called perdition in the preexistence.

I know he still had his choice....But I wanna know why god was calling him names in the preex.

I believe the answer you are looking for is in the D&C. I do not have my scriptures so I must speak from memory - I think we want section 132. Anyway it is the section on agency that tells us that we are free to act in the sphere in where we are placed --- So that that which was from the beginning is plainly made manifest.

The Traveler

[tiancum]

I need to back up on what I just stated, as to Tiancum correction. Sometimes I am not collectively coherent in my detailing my thoughts to the keyboard.

Hemi,

I hope it didn't seem like I was correcting what you said. I was totally agreeing, and sorta adding to it. I thought the discussion took a fun turn.

Sorry if I said something stupid.

[kona0197]

Interesting.

When I think of perdition I think of hell.

When I think of hell I think of the lake of fire.

When I think of the lake of fire I find it funny that Mormons do not believe in the lake of fire.

Hell will NOT be just in your head in the end. You will burn.

[skalenfehl]

Kona, Consider this:

We will all resurrect with immortal bodies to inherit a kingdom (Celestial, Terestrial and Telestial) no longer to ever suffer the pains of death being redeemed from the Fall of Adam. How do you picture burning up with a body that will never again be destroyed?

And those in Perdition who never received a body in the first place will live the rest of their spiritual lives in that awful place prepared, how will they burn forever with no bodies?

That horrible unquenchable fire spoken of in the scriptures is symbolic. Hell, as prophets describe, is that awful torment where the flames rise up forever never to be quenched. In other worse we'll suffer the pain and torment of our own sins because Christ said that if we don't repent (embrace the Atonement) we will suffer even as he suffered for us.

D&C 19: 15-18

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

Mosiah 3: 24-27

24 And thus saith the Lord: They shall stand as a bright testimony against this people, at the judgment day; whereof they shall be judged, every man according to his works, whether they be good, or whether they be evil.

25 And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls.

26 Therefore, they have drunk out of the cup of the wrath of God, which justice could no more deny unto them than it could deny that Adam should fall because of his partaking of the forbidden fruit; therefore, mercy could have claim on them no more forever.

27 And their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever. Thus hath the Lord commanded me. Amen.

[kona0197]

I agree that we will be resurrected. However your faith says there is three heavens. I don't believe in three heavens even if you guys claim Paul said something about three heavens.

[skalenfehl]

Understandable. How do you view, based on your understanding of the scriptures, what heaven and hell are like? What will we be doing for the rest of eternity?

[kona0197]

Well in heaven you will be with your loved ones regardless if you are "sealed" to them or not. Streets of gold. No one is mean to no one. Peace everlasting. God and Jesus will hang out with us.

In Hell you will be tormented forever.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I agree that we will be resurrected. However your faith says there is three heavens. I don't believe in three heavens even if you guys claim Paul said something about three heavens.

So are you saying that you pick and choose which bits of scripture you wish to believe? Why would Paul teach something if he didn't expect people to believe it? What would be the point of it being in the Bible?

[Hemidakota]

Hemi,

I hope it didn't seem like I was correcting what you said. I was totally agreeing, and sorta adding to it. I thought the discussion took a fun turn.

Sorry if I said something stupid.

You didn't and I do welcome correction.

[tiancum]

So are you saying that you pick and choose which bits of scripture you wish to believe? Why would Paul teach something if he didn't expect people to believe it? What would be the point of it being in the Bible?

I think Kona was just saying he didn't interpret it the same as us.

See, who is to say which interpretation we give to the scriptures is right? Too bad god didn't give us a way to find out for ourselves.

If there was a way, it would have to be reserved for a person who was honestly seeking truth, with no anger or preconceptions as to what they believe, but a humble heart willing to accept anything God said with a conviction to follow what he said.

I think many want to know, but not because of a sincere heart, willing to sacrifice their will to God's... but because of idle curiosity.

[Hemidakota]

Concur with Travelers statement; for some of us, it is call 'giving up our will to GOD." It took sometime for me to learn that simple principle.