Are there any youth leaders here?

[WillowTheWhisp]

I'm curious to know if there is any directive in the instruction handbook for youth leaders regarding off premises activities.

I was rather surprised this week that my girls were taken on a journey, blindfolded and didn't know where they were. Whilst blindfolded my youngest daughter fell and injured her ankle because she could not see the edge of a kerb.

I do know that in Primary if we ever planned to do anything like that we needed a consent form from the parents.

They were also back late and when my husband went to pick them up they were not at the chapel and he had no idea where they were, which was a bit perturbing, especially as he works irregular hours and didn't know how long he would have to wait for them. They were half an hour late getting back but he could have ended up being late for work, plus another child he gave a lift to whose mother was worried that they had perhaps had an accident.

I expressed concern to the YW Pres but she didn't seem to think there was a problem and basically didn't want to hear my concerns. She said my daughter should have been more careful, but how can a child be careful about falling off an edge she doesn't even know is there because she can't see it? Another girl apparently fell off a wall into a bush, luckily the bush prevented her being hurt but I can't imagine that damage to the garden would have gone down all that well with the gardener.

I was just wondering if there are any official guidelines in the church handbook for such activities.

[Jenamarie]

I don't know what the "rules" are (even though I was in my ward's YW presidency for almost 3 years) but COMMON COURTESY would be to tell the parents their children weren't going to be at the chapel! We *always* told the parents where we were taking their children if we weren't going to be at the chapel, and if we were running late we had the girls pull out their cell phones and call their parents/rides. A few times we ran over and we drove the girls home ourselves, rather than have their families waiting in the parking lot for 30 minutes.

And who thought it would be a good idea to have the girls walk blindfolded on surfaces they could fall off of? I'd be annoyed at the president's lack of concern over this. I wonder if it wouldn't be appropriate to apprach your bishop, or the stake YW's president about this...

[NeuroTypical]

I expressed concern to the YW Pres but she didn't seem to think there was a problem and basically didn't want to hear my concerns.

I used to sit in Bishopric meeting and hear this stuff talked about all the time. I guess first and foremost - did your daughter know about all this months in advance, and just never told you, because she's your standard teenager that doesn't bother telling anyone? I don't know your teenager, but I know teenagers. You can tell them at church every week for two months, you can call them personally, you can send them home with a note, and they still never manage to actually bother to tell their parents.

Assuming there never was any advance notice: Express your concerns to your Bishop or either of his counselors. Also let them know the reaction you got from the YW pres.

Youth activities are supposed to begin and end at known times. Exceptions such as outside activities are to be planned and communicated ahead of time.

LM

[MsMagnolia]

I agree with Jenamarie. I know as a seminary teacher we have very specific guidelines as to what we can do with the youth. I am not even allowed to drive them to school without their parents permission. I would definately go talk with your bishop about what happened.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Thanks L-M. Yes, I'm quite used to my daughter forgetting to tell me things. I get last minute info from her quite often regarding school ("Oh we need to take an avocado tomorrow for cookery" - when there is nothing remotely resembling an avocado anywhere in the vicinity and all the shops are closed!) but the YW Pres confirmed that the girls hadn't been told where they were going. They were blindfolded and taken in cars and remained blindfolded all the time.

So do you know if they are supposed to get written consent from parents to do these outside activities like Primary do? Or maybe that is only a UK thing with all our health and safety regulations.

[Hemidakota]

Looking at any level of authority, the Youth leaders need clearance of such and notification to the parents has to be done prior to the event. It matters not where you are located on planet earth, the rules are the same.

Seek the youth leader to find out if this was followed.

[Lloyd]

Hemi is right, but it should be taken farther with a combination of the previous 3 comments. Blindfolded, In Cars away from meeting house grounds. No way. Any activity away from meeting house confines requires permission slip and activity information. (a) parental consent (b) notification © plenty of prior notice (d) proper chaperoning (e) description of activity. Better see the Bishop with youth leaders in tow. Lloyd (I was also required to issue the standard insurance form for such "off campus" activities and receive necessary signatures)

[Lloyd]

Oh, and there are official guidlines in the handbooks that all leadership have. I am required to give all teachers, and presidency, orientation material, and in that material are the procedures. Lloyd

[Hemidakota]

Lloyd are you a Bishop? :) [you don't need to answer that one on this forum - just great to see the Lord's trench workers]. humor

Read both chapter 3 [bishop responsibilities] and 19 [church policies] for the answer

[WillowTheWhisp]

So, Lloyd can I just verify this with you. For my daughter to have gone on this activity away from the meeting house I should have been notified and given my consent? Is that in the handbook? I want to be sure I'm on solid ground before I get shot down in flames by the Bishopric on this.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I wish we all had access to the handbook and could know what church policy is on things like this.

[Hemidakota]

Did you talk to your daughter about this to see if she was told? I would then approach the Youth leader to see what happen.

Yes! You should have received a liability consent form.

[Hemidakota]

I wish we all had access to the handbook and could know what church policy is on things like this.

If it was up to me, I would burn the manual thus allowing the Spirit to be the driving force in the church and not the book [same GA who wrote it said the same].

[WillowTheWhisp]

The problem there would be that some people would not do sensible things and it could lead to even worse problems that this.

Wouldn't it be great if we didn't need to be taught how to do everything?

[WillowTheWhisp]

Did you talk to your daughter about this to see if she was told? I would then approach the Youth leader to see what happen.

Yes! You should have received a liability consent form.

Yes, I asked my daughter and she said she did not know they were going to be going somewhere blindfolded. All she knew was not to be dressed in good clothes. I did approach the YW Pres last night when it happened but she was just dismissive and blamed my daughter for carelessness, I can't see how she could have been careful of an edge she couldn't see because she was blindfolded.

[Hemidakota]

Bishops are taught usually at a monthly meeting with the Stake President. The Stake President are taught by regional or area president [or rep] at given times. The Seventies are taught by the hand of presiding President over that quroum of the Apostles or his representative.

No different when we are ministered by spirits or a member of the Godhood in person.

[Hemidakota]

Yes, I asked my daughter and she said she did not know they were going to be going somewhere blindfolded. All she knew was not to be dressed in good clothes. I did approach the YW Pres last night when it happened but she was just dismissive and blamed my daughter for carelessness, I can't see how she could have been careful of an edge she couldn't see because she was blindfolded.

Now, I would ask you to call the Bishop and inform him on what transpired and your concern feelings from both of you on your daughter’s whereabouts and the accident. As parents, you need to be concern that once she is dropped off at church, she is at the building and not another unknown location.

Why? I don't think the Bishop may have known that there was no permission slips given to the parents for children leaving the buildinig and seeing this accident, the church is liable for injury.

[NeuroTypical]

If it was up to me, I would burn the manual thus allowing the Spirit to be the driving force in the church and not the book [same GA who wrote it said the same].

Interesting. Every time I've sat down with the manual, I'm always impressed by the number of times it says "do as the spirit directs"...

LM

[Hemidakota]

Yes, you are correct. I do note that but too many SPs, MPs, and Bishops rely on the book as the divine source and leaving the spirit out of the picture.

I still remember when I was young 2nd councilor in a large ward; we had an excommunication court and went through the process of prior court procedures. Noting this member’s guilt [on all accounts, the book would tell you to excommunicate the member. As a bishopric, we did a sincere knee bent prayer, asking the FATHER’s will for this member for a conclusion on his admitted guilt and sincere repentance. The Bishop turned to each councilor and asked what we received. When it was my turn, I told them what I heard and felt. It was contradiction of what was written. We knelt again and seek if my answer was correct, the Bishop receive the confirmation.

My friend, who was a Stake President once asked a GA [Apostle name will remain nameless] when being interviewed at stake conference, he had problem that needed to be addressed from a higher source. The GA listened quietly while my friend pulled out the handbook and read out the source or supposed solution to the subject being addressed from the book - to him. The GA then told my friend to stand. He stood up from his chair and looked puzzled at the GA. He then told him to place the General Handbook on his chair. My friend complied. Next, he told him to sit down. What transpired was a learning moment for my friend as Stake President.

[Palerider]

If there is a youth activity off site...it first must be approved by the Bishop. This is usually done when they have a Ward Youth Council meeting. If they don't have that meeting then someone needs to approach the Bishop for approval. Always remember.....nothing happens in the Ward without his approval. There are parental forms and sometimes if the activity requires it there is a medical release form that needs to be signed by Parents.

[WillowTheWhisp]

From what I can gather it had been agreed by the Bishop that they could do this activity. I haven't been able to speak to him personally yet so I'm not aware of how much detail he knew about what they had planned (ie did he know about the blindfolding) but there were certainly no parental consent forms. Yes we would normally include medical release in the parental consent form when I was in Primary - any allergies and that kind of thing in case a child needed medical treatment and could have an adverse reaction to something.

On the subject of the handbook. Many years ago when I was a new member I was called onto the YW presidency shortly before a roadshow and I was to arrange what the girls would be performing. I queried one song they wanted to sing because I wasn't sure they were permitted to sing a reference to the word 'Hell' - but as it referred to a sinking ship being 'bound for Hell' I was told it was OK. What I had never even thought to query was a little play which involved animals and the girls wearing face masks of eyes and ears of the animals. When he saw the rehearsal one sister was horrified and told me that wearing masks was expressly forbidden by the church handbook. I wasn't even aware there was a handbook at the time and as the YW president was long term ill and the other counsellor had gone inactive I'd been pretty much thrown in at the deep end alone. I was really upset to learn that I'd encouraged the girls to do something which the church forbids. How would we know what the church forbids if we didn't have it listed in a handbook? I was told to paint their faces instead.

I've since been puzzled by other things taking place which I've often been told are not permitted - such as boys dressing up in women's clothing (borrowing Mum's tights in order to play Robin Hood). It seems some Wards are more hot on these things than others.

[Palerider]

One reason to have Bishops approval for any and all activities is because he is liable as the Bishop. If its a ward activity then the Church Insurance kicks in....if its unapproved then there is no insurance....one of the worst things to happen for a Bishop is to be involved in a lawsuit due to a Church activity. Believe me...its no fun

[aruth5000]

I'm curious to know if there is any directive in the instruction handbook for youth leaders regarding off premises activities.

I was rather surprised this week that my girls were taken on a journey, blindfolded and didn't know where they were. Whilst blindfolded my youngest daughter fell and injured her ankle because she could not see the edge of a kerb.

I do know that in Primary if we ever planned to do anything like that we needed a consent form from the parents.

They were also back late and when my husband went to pick them up they were not at the chapel and he had no idea where they were, which was a bit perturbing, especially as he works irregular hours and didn't know how long he would have to wait for them. They were half an hour late getting back but he could have ended up being late for work, plus another child he gave a lift to whose mother was worried that they had perhaps had an accident.

I expressed concern to the YW Pres but she didn't seem to think there was a problem and basically didn't want to hear my concerns. She said my daughter should have been more careful, but how can a child be careful about falling off an edge she doesn't even know is there because she can't see it? Another girl apparently fell off a wall into a bush, luckily the bush prevented her being hurt but I can't imagine that damage to the garden would have gone down all that well with the gardener.

I was just wondering if there are any official guidelines in the church handbook for such activities.

My ward did a very simular activity ... I wasn't able to be there but afterwards they had this lesson on how you cant get through life on your own and you need the spirit to guide you .. and my younger sister melody went to the activity.. at first they didnt have anyone leading them and they started out in the church and the leaders told them to find the young womens room ... well no one could find it cause they were blinded folded.. well then the leaders took them all by the hand and led them there... and poeple fell and tripped over stuff ... no one was seriously injured which is good :) ... It's an activity i regret missing

[WillowTheWhisp]

If the activity had taken place in the chapel and finding their way from room to room I wouldn't have queried it. It was the fact that they took them, blindfolded, in cars to another town 20-30 minutes drive away and parents were not even informed of where they were which first concerned me. I have checked the handbook and it does say that for any activity away from the chapel parental consent forms must be obtained. Also you tend not to hurt yourself as much falling inside the chapel as you do slipping off the edge of a pavement outside.

I'm really struggling with this now since the Youth meeting tonight. The YWP phoned here before they left and spoke to my older daughter who relayed the question 'is it OK for them to play football tonight?' I answered (and apparently she could hear me speak to my daughter and so said afterwards she didn't need to speak to me personally) and said that the older one could play if she wanted to but the younger one had better not do so because of her ankle injury. I didn't want her to aggravate it as she is still limping slightly. Then they both went off to Youth in a taxi. (I don't drive and my husband wasn't home from work and the chapel is about 5 miles away.)

The next thing I knew was that a member of the Bishopric brought my younger daughter home in tears and told me that because she was not playing football she should not be there. For a child already wavering on the edge of a very small testimony this has pushed her over the edge and she doesn't want to go back to church again because she feels unwanted. I can't say I blame her. It gets worse because my older daughter didn't actually play football either but she was allowed to sit on the sidelines and watch. Why couldn't my younger daughter have done the same? Apparently because I had 'given permission' for my older daughter to be there but not for my younger daughter. This 'given permission' was apparently the YWP overhearing me speaking to my daughter when she was on the phone.

Why couldn't she have said at that point that my younger daughter should remain at home? Apparently when they arrived at the chapel her reaction to the poor girl was "What are you doing here?" Well she won't have to wonder that in future because my daughter has decided she doesn't want to go again as she is unwanted and uncared about. I can understand why she feels that way.

Quite apart from the fact that the handbook doesn't say permission is required for activities held at the chapel just overhearing a conversation can hardly be classed as obtaining permission anyway! Now the YWP has sent home 2 consent forms to cover ALL the activities for the coming month (one form per child rather than the stipulated one form per child per activity off premises.) There is only one off premises activity and the only information I've been given about that is "Treasure hunt in the woods" - which woods? where?

It just feels like this is being done to be spiteful to me and my daughter because I queried something which hadn't been done according to instructions.

In total contrast to this a counsellor on the YWP came up to me on Sunday and asked how my daughter's ankle was and expressed her regret that the accident had happened.

Incidentally it is also expressly forbidden for a teenage girl to travel alone in a car with a man she is not related to isn't it? But that didn't stop a member of the Bishopric bringing her home last night because she wasn't welcome at Youth.

As I said, I'm really struggling to cope with this myself and I understand my daughter not wanting to go again because right now I don't particularly want to be there either.

[Hemidakota]

Willow, you are correct on how the Saints should avoid any situation when driving other opposite gender Saints. Yet, I am very surprised, in seeing the Bishopric Councilor, in allowing himself to be in that position.

However, I do feel for you.