Is grace enough?

[skalenfehl]

Anyway, I gotta get to work. It's been enlightening discussing this with you. It has strengthened my knowledge of Paul's understanding of grace and works as he taught in his epistles. With that said, I'll leave you with something he told to Titus in his epistle.

Titus 3: 4-8

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Best wishes.

[HizWife625]

Gifts must be accepted or refused, though. Or does Christ refuse to give some gifts and others not?

You need to ask Hemi that question...............He's already answered it according to the LDS doctrine.

[skalenfehl]

While Nephi said we rely on it after all we can do, we don't rely on it last, but rather it is applied to us when we seek earnestly to live the commandments because of ourselves we cannot be saved. It is His grace that makes up the difference and it always has. Baptism is the perfect example. Except we are born of water and the spirit we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. All of God's grace will not suffice if we aren't baptized unto salvation. But as I said, his grace is already sufficient where we fall short.

Cheers. :)

[skalenfehl]

You need to ask Hemi that question...............He's already answered it according to the LDS doctrine.

I'd love to see what he wrote. I'm sure there's a perfectly good explanation. Gotta run!

[HizWife625]

Anyway, I gotta get to work. It's been enlightening discussing this with you. It has strengthened my knowledge of Paul's understanding of grace and works as he taught in his epistles. With that said, I'll leave you with something he told to Titus in his epistle.

Titus 3: 4-8

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Best wishes.

Grace first, works 2nd........ That is what Paul taught..... If your work is not fruitful after receiving grace first, then your walk with Christ will be questioned.......

[HizWife625]

I'd love to see what he wrote. I'm sure there's a perfectly good explanation. Gotta run!

Of course..

Have a great day...... Thanks for the talk.

[skalenfehl]

Grace first, works 2nd........ That is what Paul taught..... If your work is not fruitful after receiving grace first, then your walk with Christ will be questioned.......

Ah, now we're getting somewhere! Ok, by now...

[Brother Dorsey]

I think I understand where HizWife is coming from......

Correct me if I'm wrong Hiz.......

You believe that because you personally have accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior this has somehow made you change, made you change your thinking and caused you to try and follow in the footsteps of Christ, to follow His example as it were. This, from what I understand you to be saying is the gift of the Spirit? and when you receive this gift you become a true believer. There are no works involved for your salvation because by accepting Christ you have been changed and your sin is always forgiven because of Him. You don't have to do anything to be forgiven of any of your sins from then on....otherwise that would be works right?

Please I want to understand you......

I'm thinking, to you, obeying the commandments of God for salvation is works if one is really not a true believer, but obeying the commandments of God because of this change (Gift of the Spirit) you have gone through then it's not classified as works...it becomes something you just do because of the change of heart and it really has no bearing on your salvation....right?

We believe that when we accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ, accept Him as our Lord and Savior AND follow His commandments (which includes the good works He desires of us as well as baptism and the ordinances of the Gospel) we are saved and changed and we have the desire to follow Him. To be truly like Him in the end. We believe because of His saving grace we are saved as long as we strive to follow Him and the commands He has given us (which differ from yours because we have further revelation from the Lord).

We believe our salvation is a free gift, however it is conditional upon our obedience to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

To us the Atonement is part of our salvation but in a sence are two separate things.....

let me explain:

We believe that because Christ broke the bands of death all will be resurrected and have eternal life or be saved, some in the lower kingdoms, others in the highest and still a few to outer darkness or a complete separation from God, Hell if you will. This is the concept of salvation to us. This is a fee gift with no strings attatched......

The atonement on the other hand is Christs suffering for the sins of mankind so that what we cannot perfect in this life is made perfect though His atoning for our sins. This is also a gift, but a conditional gift....if we accept this gift we are to strive to obey His commands (this includes the ordinances of the Gospel), do the best we can do and endure to the end. Christ has made up the difference. If we take advantage of Christ's atonement and do as He asks we can achieve the higher kingdom of God and inherit what He has. Or in other words become exhaulted.

[Jenamarie]

And also, for us Salvation means more than being saved from Hell. EVERYONE on this Earth is Saved from Hell, through the Atonement, save those who deny the Holy Spirit. EVERYONE will be Resurrected, EVERYONE has the opportunity to have their sins forgiven. Where we differ is in the rewards in the hearafter. Our works are what determin our Eternal reward. Did we rely on His Grace to help us keep His commandments? Or did we just coast through this life, perhaps being good to those who were good to us, but not going out of our way to help others, as He commanded. Those who follow His Path most closely, and who repent when they find themselves off of the path, will recieve Exaltation. Those who are unpenitent will not recieve Exaltation, but will be assigned to a lesser Kingdom. But not Hell. Their faith in Christ has saved them from Hell. That we get for free.

[HizWife625]

Vry well, BD.... Thanks for extending the kindness and time from your life.

Now, BD understand what else I am saying....I do not take grace and His gift lightly; but there are those that do. Once I accept His grace he will not take it away. I have become one with Him. Make sense?

-

salvation is a free gift, however it is conditional is in part of tyour statement.

I am trying to understand you to so please help me our here.

Salvation........deliverance from the power and effects of sin

is .....

a

Free.............. having no trade restrictions b: not subject to government regulation

having no obligations (as to work) or commitments

not taken up with commitments or obligations

having a scope not restricted by qualification

not costing or charging anything

Gift................something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation

However........1: in whatever manner or way that <will help however I can>

2archaic : although........... in spite of the fact that .........doubt

-

It seems as your statement cannot be true if you really feel it is a free gift. If it is free, there cannot be a "however"

[HizWife625]

JenaMaiie

The difference between you and me is that you believe in the plurality of gods, and I believe in One God.

[Jenamarie]

JenaMaiie

The difference between you and me is that you believe in the plurality of gods, and I believe in One God.

There is one Almighty God, the rest of us are merely gods (notice the small "g") We grow up to be like Him, because we are His children, but we will never *become* Him, we will never usurp Him, and we will always ALWAYS be indebted to Him. He is Our Eternal Father, forever and ever, world without end, Amen.

[Guest Seraphim]

Incorrect.

Even the head of the LDS faith spoke to the public clearly saying we serve two different.......

This is another example of a post that requires references. You should have no problem locating this on lds.org to discuss the talk in its entirety. I have seen partial quotes from President Hinckley posted with assumptions made regarding what he meant.

Seraphim

[HizWife625]

Seraphim......

This was heard on a local Christian radio station with an interview of the LDS's current leader...Sorry, I do not know how to address him with his proper authoritative name....He was being interviewed and this was approx 9 months ago or so.....I will try to find it and who he was interviewed by....... It was a well known theologian, but I will find it.

Even in a few of the threads I have read, there was one posts that agress we served two different.

But Josepth Smith did preach polytheism,. where "Traditional Christianity" does not support that.

[HizWife625]

Hey can I ask a question?

Which translation of the bible does the LDS use? Or you use?

( not knowing if you all use one translation )

[Jenamarie]

King James, for those of us who speak English.

[Guest tomk]

There is one Almighty God, the rest of us are merely gods (notice the small "g") We grow up to be like Him, because we are His children, but we will never *become* Him, we will never usurp Him, and we will always ALWAYS be indebted to Him. He is Our Eternal Father, forever and ever, world without end, Amen.

Right...and it's not like it's a "bad thing" and it's certainly not about "who has more power" or what not!!! For heaven's sake! He is our Father! We are His children! He is happy to share with us all that He has!

(just agreeing with you)

[Jenamarie]

Right...and it's not like it's a "bad thing" and it's certainly not about "who has more power" or what not!!! For heaven's sake! He is our Father! We are His children! He is happy to share with us all that He has!

(just agreeing with you)

We are joint heirs with Christ, after all. :) Joint doesn't mean "less than". I have equal access to the money in my husband and I's *joint* bank account. I'll also have *joint* access to the inheritance Christ will be recieving from the Father, that being all that he hath. :)

[Guest tomk]

We are joint heirs with Christ, after all. :) Joint doesn't mean "less than". I have equal access to the money in my husband and I's *joint* bank account. I'll also have *joint* access to the inheritance Christ will be recieving from the Father, that being all that he hath. :)

Well said!

Infinity "plus" any amount, is still Infinity.

Is why cleaving unto Christ is so important. It's the only protection we have from Justice.

[Finrock]

If it is free, there cannot be a "however"

Good afternoon HizWife!

Just wanted to point out that the logic of your statement is problematic. I think we can look at many real world applications and see this. For instance, a car dealership may be giving away a free car for those who come to their show room. Well, the car is free, yet a condition exist. You must come to the show room.

I do not recall you postulating the belief that salvation is free to all, even those who do not accept Christ as their Savior. Consider that if we accept the conclusion that can be derived from your statement, then you must also reject your own belief; because your position is also conditional. Namely, salvation is free as long as one accepts Christ.

In short, I have seen no Christian religion that does not require a condition be met before salvation is given. Given that your belief also requires a condition be met before salvation is recieved, it appears your argument is special pleading. In other words, both positions here require that some condition(s) be met before salvation is given freely, yet without justified reason, you are claiming that your position is salvation given freely, while the LDS position is not. This position isn't logically sustainable.

Regards,

Finrock

[MorningStar]

not in God's eyes

That's not true. :)

[MorningStar]

Ditto....... That would be kind of like playing favorites don't ya think ?

Is it playing favorites to send some of His children to Hell and others to Heaven?

[Guest tomk]

Is it playing favorites to send some of His children to Hell and others to Heaven?

People seem to be a bit confused about this.

WHO sends people to heaven or hell?

Isn't it themselves, by their own choices?

[MorningStar]

My view on grace - It is enough to save eveyone from death and Hell but it is not enough to grant someone exaltation. But the Atonement makes up for where we fail when we are doing our best. The Bible says we will be judged by our works. For what purpose? Works isn't confessing that you believe Jesus is the Christ and the Bible says that not everyone who professes to believe in Christ will be saved because their hearts are far from Him.

[MorningStar]

People seem to be a bit confused about this.

WHO sends people to heaven or hell?

Isn't it themselves, by their own choices?

I believe that is a consequence a person brings upon themselves. What I am arguing is that all sins are not equal. You can't unmurder someone, but you can return the bubblegum and apologize for stealing it. One causes a lot more heartache than the other.