Is grace enough?

[HizWife625]

Judas Iscariot this day is sipping on Pina Colada's in heaven with Peter, James and John.

Karla Harris...The triple murderess from Texas is dining at the celestial Chuck-A-Rama.

Jim Jones is living on the same street paved with gold as is Mother Teresa...

lostnfound...Grace isn't something as cheap as most traditional Christians make

If Jesus can cover your sins, why can't He cover theirs? Is His death not sufficient for some?

[Dr T]

Skippy,

Here are some thoughts about Judas Bible.org: Judas (John 13:18-30) from John 13:18-30 for you to read if you chose.

[bert10]

Hi - Shell72;

First let me say....that It is okay to disagree to what I say. All I have to do is give what I know. My responsibility ends there and God begins.

There are degrees to sin and so there are degrees to damnation. Just as there are degrees to righteousness. Grace of God is applied according to the individual, according to righteousness and justice. Where does it say in the bible that God is not just?

John 19:11 - Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Matthew 23:14 - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

And some more on Grace. What Moroni 10:32 and 33 is describing Walking in the Light as Christ is in the Light.

Moroni 10:32 - Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

Remember my former post? on Who are little children? they are they who have known the Father. for only they who have known the Father are given to Christ for purifying and perfecting.......and these shall become perfected in Christ thru Grace. [The ability of God to see us AGAIN as little children]

Moroni 10:33 - And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

Now John has also taught on the shedding of Christ blood and when it shall cleanse us.

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

And lastly....Little Children are of GOD.

1 John 4:4 - Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is He that is in you, than He that is in the world.

-------------------------------------------

Cain was not forgiven for He had not repented and neither could he restore the life of Abel. The killing was not an accident but premeditated.There is no forgiveness of God for pre-meditated murder in this world.

----------------------------------------------

The best example I can give you is David...who had Uriah his faithful general murdered so that he could get Bathsheba

David knew the law....and Knew that his soul would go to hell no matter how much repentance he did here on the earth. However, he did received a promise that he should not stay in hell forever.

Psalms 16:9 - Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.

Psalms 16:10 - For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

The Apostles did teach this also, even though it is not in the NT..for they said....in Acts 2:29 that David after the resurrection of Christ did not rise with the ancients prophets and righteous patriarchs. Many after the resurrection began to check the tombs of the prophets and patriarchs to see who had risen from those who had not.

Acts 2:29 - Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

The grace of God does not relieve men from having to restore the wrong they do to their neighbors. If by some action a man puts himself beyond this....He cannot be forgiven in this life here on the earth. And if the Sin is Spiritual then he cannot be forgiven in this world nor in the world to come.

again as for Moroni 10:32 and 33. And also the gospel of John....It shows how GOD respond with Grace to our 'attitude'.

I hope this helps.

Peace be unto you

bert10

I absolutely respectully disagree.

Where in the Bible does it say that there are seperate kinds of Grace? And where does it say we have an allotted time to repent before it impacts our lives?

If I were to go into a store and steal a chocolate bar for instance. I get caught. While I confess my sins to God, HE forgives me and that is what is important, I still must deal with the consequences of my actions here on earth. Throughout the Bible Men and women sinned - God Forgave them, but still there were reprocussions. Look at the very first book. Cain and Able. He was forgiven by God, and given a mark of protection - but he still was exiled. To me that tells me that I can have forgiveness of God, but I will still face consequences on earth, but God will stand by me throughout.

[lostnfound]

Under your view of Grace...Judas Iscariot this day is sipping on Pina Colada's in heaven with Peter, James and John.

Karla Harris...The triple murderess from Texas is dining at the celestial Chuck-A-Rama.

Jim Jones is living on the same street paved with gold as is Mother Teresa...

lostnfound...Grace isn't something as cheap as most traditional Christians make it out to be.

If it was, I'd have a whole dashboard full of plastic prayer jesus's from Oral Roberts.

Grace is an essential part of Salvation...as the Book of Mormon says...Grace is that you receieve after all you have done...

Let me assure you...that there is no one in need of Christ's atoning Grace than moi..NO ONE...but, I don't take the traditional Christian view of Eat, Drink and be Merry...for there's always Grace at the end of the road...

First off i don't know what christians you have been talking to..but lets be perfectly clear grace is not to be made into some cheap joy thrill ride! Okay lets get that on the table right here and now and for anybody else that comes across this view..they are really mistaken. The traditional christian or born again believer does not say you can just keep on sinning.. like it means nothing..when have I ever told you that you can keep on sinning?

Judas was not a believer...

you are comparing these aweful people to what the world calls saints..but God is not doing that..Sin does not have different levels of infraction to God. Sin is Sin and it is just that. It seperates us from God and without that payment for sin we are in trouble. Grace does not give you license to sin!

[Shell72]

I agree that when we lose focus on the Father, we lose focus on the thing that is most important in this life, and that is our relationship with Him.

However, I believe that what we do here on earth is very important. For the past 6 months I've been going through a lot of soul searching as to wheather I am LDS by birth, or LDS by *choice*. I've looked into other Christian doctrines, and while the "once saved always saved" doctrine has it's appeal, to me it makes God seem rather two dimentional. From what I've learned of other churches, they believe God created us in our mother's wombs, and all we have to do in this life is come unto Christ and be saved. If we fail at that one thing then we're damned to Hell. Period. But God knows all things, so surely He must know that not all of His children will have a fair shot at making that choice. There are middle eastern countries where Christianity is *outlawed* under punnishment of death! How are these children supposed to learn of Christ? Is that fair? Are they expected to make a greater sacrifice than those of us who live in Christian countries, to follow the Lord? To watch their entire families be killed by their government?

And why would Christ give commandments if He didn't expect us to obey them? Were they merely advice? If it's non-Christians living clean lives that ends up making the world a better place, and "born-again Christians" who are making life miserable for everyone, does that glorify God? (not saying this is happening on a large scale, but I have met many wonderful athiests and many far-from-nice "Christians")

And why did God create mankind? That's one question I haven't found a satisfying answer for in any other church besides LDS. Was it so he could have millions of underlings worshiping Him? If He loved us, would He not want more for us than that? Would He not want to raise us up and help us experience the joy that He feels? And why would He create mankind knowing that the vast majority of them would end up in Hell simply for not choosing him? The LDS belief that only those who *knowingly* reject Christ will end up in Hell makes Heavenly Father seem much more just, and loving, and pure. Those who don't repent of their sins won't recieve as high a glory in Heaven, and still may not be in God's presense, but the "damnation" of being cut off from Eternal Progression seems much more just than being sent to burn in brimstone because of one mistake you made in an otherwise honorable life.

My seminary teacher used an awesome diagram to explain Grace to us. She drew a pit that represented our fallen state, with a rope hanging from the top that represented the Atonement. Some of us will grab onto the rope, decide that climbing out of the pit is too hard, and let go. Some of us will grab onto the rope, and stay right there at whatever point on the rope we grabbed on to. And some of us will grab onto the rope and start climbing. We'll fall sometimes, but through repentence His Divine Forgiveness will lift us back onto the rope, to the same point we were at when we fell, and we'll be allowed to continue our assent. And because the pit is far too deep for us to climb out of on our own, Our Savior is standing at the top, pulling the rope towards Him, so that we are able to accomplish more than we could have ever hoped to accomplish on our own, and so we'll progress much further than those who let go, and be stronger Spiritually, and have a closer relationship with Him, from working with Him to draw ourselves to Him, than those who merely hang on and wait for Christ to pull them to the top. Grace is offered to all, but not everyone gets the same results from it. God is watching what we do with His Gift.

I honestly believe that we are unable to understand some things and I am ok with that. I can not expect my human mind to wrap itself around God's will and God's reasons for things, and if He wanted us to understand why He created us, and why He does what He does then He would have explained it to us. He hasn't and that is ok. He does not answer to us - we answer to Him and He does not owe us a justification for anything. I am unable to understand God , and to try would be futile.

I find that some religions try to give people answers, to over explain the unexplainable. That takes away from Faith. God has put me on this earth - I have a purpose, and I have His word to guide me through it. That's all I have to go with. I try to keep my head clear of what man tells me, and try to keep my focus on what God has told us. If someone says that God told them something, I refer to the Bible and what God has told us about someone speaking for Him, if it doesn't add up I make my choice.

I really believe we don't have all of the answers, because we are incapable of understanding them. We just have to hold on to God's word and not over analyze everything and have faith. It's a daily commitment, and easier some times than others.

[Hemidakota]

Regards to the age old question in rejecting an 'open canon [bible].'

Speaking of people who reject an “open canon”, Elder Holland said: “Imputing no ill will to those who take such a position, nevertheless we respectfully but resolutely reject such an unscriptural characterization of true Christianity.”

His points included:

• “One of the arguments often used in any defense of a closed canon is the New Testament passage recorded in Revelation 22:18: ‘For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of … this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.’ However, there is now overwhelming consensus among virtually all biblical scholars that this verse applies only to the book of Revelation, not the whole Bible.”

• “Virtually every prophet of the Old and New Testament has added scripture to that received by his predecessors. If the Old Testament words of Moses were sufficient, as some could have mistakenly thought them to be, then why, the subsequent prophecies of Isaiah? Or Jeremiah who follows him? To say nothing of Ezekiel and Daniel, of Joel, Amos, and all the rest. If one revelation to one prophet in one moment of time is sufficient for all time, what justifies these many others? What justifies them was made clear by Jehovah Himself when He said to Moses, ‘My works are without end, and … my words … never cease’ (Moses 1:4).”

• “The scriptures are not the ultimate source of knowledge for Latter-day Saints. They are manifestations of the ultimate source. The ultimate source of knowledge and authority for a Latter-day Saint is the living God. The communication of those gifts comes from God as living, vibrant, divine revelation.”

• “This doctrine lies at the very heart of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and our message to the world. … We believe in a God who is engaged in our lives, who is not silent, not absent, nor as Elijah said of the God of the priests of Baal, is He ‘[on] a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be [awakened]’ (1 Kings 18:27).

• “In a sense Joseph Smith and his prophetic successors in this Church answer the challenge Ralph Waldo Emerson put to the students of the Harvard Divinity School 170 years ago this coming summer. To that group of the Protestant best and brightest, the great sage of Concord pled that they teach ‘that God is, not was; that He speaketh, not spake.’”

[Dr T]

First off i don't know what christians you have been talking to..but lets be perfectly clear grace is not to be made into some cheap joy thrill ride! Okay lets get that on the table right here and now and for anybody else that comes across this view..they are really mistaken. The traditional christian or born again believer does not say you can just keep on sinning.. like it means nothing..when have I ever told you that you can keep on sinning?

Judas was not a believer...

you are comparing these aweful people to what the world calls saints..but God is not doing that..Sin does not have different levels of infraction to God. Sin is Sin and it is just that. It seperates us from God and without that payment for sin we are in trouble. Grace does not give you license to sin!

Good call LnF :)

[skalenfehl]

We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.—Article of Faith 1:3 (Emphasis added)

Heavenly Father wants all of His children to return to Him. The help or strength He gives us through the love of Jesus Christ is called grace. The things we must do are called works.

To gain eternal life, we need both grace and works. A Christian author, C. S. Lewis, compared grace and works to the blades of a pair of scissors. Both are necessary. To ask “Are you saved by grace or works?” is like asking “Do you cut with this blade or that one?”

We receive God’s grace because of the Atonement. We can’t raise ourselves from the dead, so the Resurrection is an example of His grace. We can’t purify ourselves from sin, so the Lord’s forgiveness is another example of grace. But before He will forgive us, we must repent—that’s our part, our works.

Besides repentance, our works also include receiving ordinances, keeping covenants, and serving others. While these works are necessary for salvation, they aren’t sufficient. They are not enough because we can’t live perfect lives, but we can do our best to live righteously. By doing so, we invite the Lord’s grace into our lives and qualify for the gift of salvation.

We believe that we are saved by grace after all we can do (see 2 Ne. 25:23). We don’t earn salvation. Heavenly Father and the Savior will bless us with eternal life, through Their grace, if we do our part. They have asked us to have faith in Jesus Christ, repent throughout our lives, be baptized and receive other ordinances, and faithfully endure to the end. If we do that, we are promised eternal life through the grace of God.

This is our doctrine.

[Guest User-Removed]

First off i don't know what christians you have been talking to..but lets be perfectly clear grace is not to be made into some cheap joy thrill ride! Okay lets get that on the table right here and now and for anybody else that comes across this view..they are really mistaken. The traditional christian or born again believer does not say you can just keep on sinning.. like it means nothing..when have I ever told you that you can keep on sinning?

Judas was not a believer...

you are comparing these aweful people to what the world calls saints..but God is not doing that..Sin does not have different levels of infraction to God. Sin is Sin and it is just that. It seperates us from God and without that payment for sin we are in trouble. Grace does not give you license to sin!

Hmmmmm...Where do I start??????

Jan and Paul Crouch...

Jim and the late Tammy Faye??????

Benny Hinn??????

Please...listen to any Born Again AM or FM station...when they're not hating LDS, they're selling grace...

Walter Martin.....I mean seriously, how many times have I been driving or watching TV and heard a Preacher scream...just reach out and touch the radio...TV...whatever and say Jaysas save me...and you'll be saved.

NOW...LnF...you've gotten to know me well enough, that I'm not trying to be disrespectful here...but the truth is this...I've met lot's of Elmer Gantry's...but never met Bishop or Stake President Elmer Gantry...

[MorningStar]

First off i don't know what christians you have been talking to..but lets be perfectly clear grace is not to be made into some cheap joy thrill ride! Okay lets get that on the table right here and now and for anybody else that comes across this view..they are really mistaken. The traditional christian or born again believer does not say you can just keep on sinning.. like it means nothing..when have I ever told you that you can keep on sinning?

Judas was not a believer...

you are comparing these aweful people to what the world calls saints..but God is not doing that..Sin does not have different levels of infraction to God. Sin is Sin and it is just that. It seperates us from God and without that payment for sin we are in trouble. Grace does not give you license to sin!

Sin had different levels of seriousness. I would rather someone steal my bubblegum than rape and murder my child. Big difference there.

[Guest User-Removed]

murder my child. Big difference there.

Dunno...you never met my kids...I once asked them if they wanted to find out if reincarnation was in fact true or if it was false....they went huh????

I said keep pushing it and you will...bwahahahahahahaha

[HizWife625]

Dunno...you never met my kids...I once asked them if they wanted to find out if reincarnation was in fact true or if it was false....they went huh????

I said keep pushing it and you will...bwahahahahahahaha

Cool.... I will have to use this line....... Very good indeed !!

[lostnfound]

Sin had different levels of seriousness. I would rather someone steal my bubblegum than rape and murder my child. Big difference there.

not in God's eyes

[HizWife625]

not in God's eyes

Ditto....... That would be kind of like playing favorites don't ya think ?

[lostnfound]

Hmmmmm...Where do I start??????

Jan and Paul Crouch...

Jim and the late Tammy Faye??????

Benny Hinn??????

Please...listen to any Born Again AM or FM station...when they're not hating LDS, they're selling grace...

Walter Martin.....I mean seriously, how many times have I been driving or watching TV and heard a Preacher scream...just reach out and touch the radio...TV...whatever and say Jaysas save me...and you'll be saved.

NOW...LnF...you've gotten to know me well enough, that I'm not trying to be disrespectful here...but the truth is this...I've met lot's of Elmer Gantry's...but never met Bishop or Stake President Elmer Gantry...

I never listen to these guys you mention becouse i don't believe they undertand the gospel ethier..poor represention of truth

[lostnfound]

Ditto....... That would be kind of like playing favorites don't ya think ?

it is also a clear view that does not understand how God views Sin.. another great thread..how does God view sin..have we not all murdered?

[HizWife625]

Tag you're it.... You lead and I will follow.........Let's plat follow the leader...........

Oh wait...I am already doing that.........My leader is my daddy........

Come on lostnfound.....? Who's your DADDY ? ...........Do we have the same DADDY ??

LOL............... in one goofy mood today........

[Guest User-Removed]

I never listen to these guys you mention becouse i don't believe they undertand the gospel ethier..poor represention of truth

YOU...Never heard Elmer Gantry preach?????

Check this out...More from the Pantheon of Christian Leaders...

Christian evangelist scandals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[HizWife625]

YOU...Never heard Elmer Gantry preach?????

Check this out...More from the Pantheon of Christian Leaders...

Christian evangelist scandals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You ever heard Billy Graham preach? OR Charles Stanley ?? or James MacArthur? Topny Evans? Chuck Swindoll?

I would just leave your socks at home.....They will knock'em off anyways :lol:

[Hemidakota]

Being a great orator doesn’t give credence in truly knowing the Godhead personally?

[lostnfound]

You ever heard Billy Graham preach? OR Charles Stanley ?? or James MacArthur? Topny Evans? Chuck Swindoll?

I would just leave your socks at home.....They will knock'em off anyways :lol:

charles stanley, john macarthur, Piper, graham, kay arthur, beth moore..

much better at the truth..now those I would listen to!

[HizWife625]

Billy sure does have alot of gray hair an been around for 80 something years.....He's nothing but a good old coutnry boy with the gospel of Christ embeaded in his heart.....

But Hemi, you are more than welcome to sit and have coffee with Billy Graham anytime...................Just as my pastor would, he would welcome you with open arms and a KJV bible as his shield.....

[lostnfound]

YOU...Never heard Elmer Gantry preach?????

Check this out...More from the Pantheon of Christian Leaders...

Christian evangelist scandals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

just rememmber skip that just becouse a guy on tevelsion claims to be a christian does not make him one. This is why I do not let pastors lead me I spend time in God's word and know the truth first so that I can spot a counterfeit.

[Hemidakota]

If I did, I would bear testimony Hiz...[Tidbit] I know the Holy Ghost and how He operates. The witness therein is more powerful than a great orator. Here is something that majority Christians and a few Saints, still have no understanding about.

Now, what I do find as insult, regards to the precious truths, those who claimed the privilege of knowing the Godhead, upon quizzing them what I term - sacred information - [about the Godhead], are deceivers and liars. What do you think will happen to them across the veil? Hmm….

I do find something that is quite fascinating; it is profitable to be in the lords business. Noting my friend, who is one of those claimed clergy, now has two homes and a growing bank account.

[HizWife625]

just rememmber skip that just becouse a guy on tevelsion claims to be a christian does not make him one. This is why I do not let pastors lead me I spend time in God's word and know the truth first so that I can spot a counterfeit.

Amen Sista'