Unanswered Questions

[Guest User-Removed]

I never put everything in my friends office on his desks and buy 5$ of $ store bugs and bug his office.

I never filled a teachers car with balloons

I never hid a friend's car early morning at seminary

I also have never done multiple Chinese fire drills at stop lights in town

GEEZ...............Compared to some in here..............I'm soooooooooo going to Hell for what I did in muh Seminary Days................

Of course...there's also Church Ball...and let's not forget the evil that visited my Stake when I had to suffer through Dance Practice....

[rameumptom]

You know, this is one of those things I wish the church was a little more clear on. One thing I've learned about the Sealing Covenant in my search for a Testimony is that it's about much much more than the nuclear family unit. It's much more than me being Sealed to my parents, or to my husband, or to my children. It's about me and my family being SEALED INTO THE FAMILY OF CHRIST! It's not about being the Smith Family or the Doe Family for Eternity, it's about being the Children of Christ for Eternity, being heirs with Him, and doing it with those whom we love.

And you hit it on the nail. This is how Joseph and Brigham viewed it, which is why they had many people sealed to them in their time. Only later were families and members encouraged to be sealed to their direct lines.

At a seminar in Indianapolis at IUPUI in April, Kathleen Flake explained that Brigham viewed himself as much kin to Joseph as did Emma Smith. This is part of what caused the rancor between the two of them, as she felt Joseph was more hers than anyone else's, and that she should be recognized as a light to the Church, given her part in the Quorum of the Anointed and as the Prophet's wife.

Kathryn Daynes told us:

Edmund Richardson

and wife joined the Church. He couldn't have kids, but wanted to have some. They

spoke with Brigham Young, who was practical. He told her to choose a

polygamist man to father children for Edmund. These were called, marriages

of convenience. Still, 2/3 of LDS polygamists only had 2 wives.

[crytsprospect]

You know sometimes levity breaks an uncomfortable conversation. I got caught up in the fun of it but said my serious comments before the fun.. I am as confused as the next person on some of the issues raised but I have total faith in my father in heaven to get us all thru it. Sometimes we just have to believe and trust all will work together.

[Canuck Mormon]

When I first heard about how the Book of Mormon was translated, I was a little shocked. It got me thinking though. Does it matter how Joseph Smith did it? NO. Is it still true? YES. That's all that matters, it's still true. He could have done it jumping around the room on one leg in a chicken suit. It doesn't change the fact that it's true. As far as the other stuff, I see it as evolving revelation. As we learn more and progress, we learn more and progress. Nothing changes, just evolves.

My 2 cents.

[Misshalfway]

Sorry guys. I looked everywhere I can think. I was sure it was Lost that said something to me like, "I am throwing you a little salt

[YellowLight]

When I first heard about how the Book of Mormon was translated, I was a little shocked. It got me thinking though. Does it matter how Joseph Smith did it? NO. Is it still true? YES. That's all that matters, it's still true. He could have done it jumping around the room on one leg in a chicken suit. It doesn't change the fact that it's true. As far as the other stuff, I see it as evolving revelation. As we learn more and progress, we learn more and progress. Nothing changes, just evolves.

My 2 cents.

It does matter though. God is a God of order. This is the biggest question I have...If history does not line up or there are large contradictions with the restoration of the Christ's church, how can we know it is right. There is more evidence showing that something is wrong. However, some people say they still know it is true, no matter what evidence is shown to them. If Joseph Smith came and visited each member and told them it wasn't true, there are many that would still believe.

This is due to your testimony based on feelings from the holy spirit. The question is, every other religion in the world says they received a confirmation almost identical to the one you received. Thus, how do you know you are right, and the other 6,000,000,000 people on earth are wrong?

[Hemidakota]

True, but did they pray and receive an answer? Or witnessed or heard a voice declaring it?

To answer that one, only few.

[Jenamarie]

It does matter though. God is a God of order. This is the biggest question I have...If history does not line up or there are large contradictions with the restoration of the Christ's church, how can we know it is right. There is more evidence showing that something is wrong. However, some people say they still know it is true, no matter what evidence is shown to them. If Joseph Smith came and visited each member and told them it wasn't true, there are many that would still believe.

This is due to your testimony based on feelings from the holy spirit. The question is, every other religion in the world says they received a confirmation almost identical to the one you received. Thus, how do you know you are right, and the other 6,000,000,000 people on earth are wrong?

Could you share with us what some of this "evidence" is? Perhaps we could address it for you. :)

[HiJolly]

It does matter though. God is a God of order. This is the biggest question I have...If history does not line up or there are large contradictions with the restoration of the Christ's church, how can we know it is right. There is more evidence showing that something is wrong.

I think in most cases where people think things are 'wrong' with the Church, the core problem is that things are *different* than what they supposed, assumed, or were told by people (in or out of the Church) that were incorrect.

That does not mean the Church is at fault; Nor does it mean the witness of the spirit is somehow false.

This is due to your testimony based on feelings from the holy spirit. The question is, every other religion in the world says they received a confirmation almost identical to the one you received. Thus, how do you know you are right, and the other 6,000,000,000 people on earth are wrong?

Why on earth would anyone say, or believe, that the other 6,000,000,000 people are wrong? How are they wrong? Got any specifics?

HiJolly

[Misshalfway]

It does matter though. God is a God of order. This is the biggest question I have...If history does not line up or there are large contradictions with the restoration of the Christ's church, how can we know it is right. There is more evidence showing that something is wrong. However, some people say they still know it is true, no matter what evidence is shown to them. If Joseph Smith came and visited each member and told them it wasn't true, there are many that would still believe.

So. You have done your research and it appears that you find more contradiction that substantiation. And I guess I am wondering what does God says to you about your findings? When you say more contradiction are you also referring to doctrine, scripture, and modern revelation? Are you also seeing any contradiction in your own experience with God and the Spirit and especially in your own obedience? And are you sure that you are relying on God to tell you the truth here or are you relying on your own judgement and the voice of doubt to determine that truth?

This is due to your testimony based on feelings from the holy spirit. The question is, every other religion in the world says they received a confirmation almost identical to the one you received. Thus, how do you know you are right, and the other 6,000,000,000 people on earth are wrong?

Are you absolutely sure about this above statement? Are you absolutely sure that every person on the planet is asking the same question? Are you absolutely sure that everyone is even asking a question to begin with? Are you sure all of these people are even free to ask such a question or even have the proper exposure and education to proceed with such a journey? Are you sure that everyone on the planet is getting their answer from the same source? Are you absolutely sure that everyone would perceive the spirit the same way? Are you absolutely sure that God wouldn't lead people to truth in different ways and places and formats? Are you sure that every single soul is even in search of absolute truth?

Look. I understand your argument. You are certainly not alone in how you feel right now.

All, I know is my own experience. I can't know what your experience has or hasn't been with the Spirit of the Lord. And I can tell you, that the elements that make up my testimony are complex and layered. It is so much more than a singular and simple answer. It is comprised of a collection of answers to prayer-- even a pattern of answers, and then many fruits of obedience. My knowledge comes from hours in scripture study and continual pondering and additional prayer. It has come thru practical AND subjective experience -- good and not so good.

My doubts and the imperfections of this work are folded in their too. Not all are answered. But they certainly don't add up to a majority. And more than not, the imperfections, while confusion at first glance, serve to make this work more of a miracle. It is a lot like the missionary effort. If the church weren't true the missionaries would have killed the work a long time ago.

[YellowLight]

I think in most cases where people think things are 'wrong' with the Church, the core problem is that things are *different* than what they supposed, assumed, or were told by people (in or out of the Church) that were incorrect.

That does not mean the Church is at fault; Nor does it mean the witness of the spirit is somehow false.

Yes, I think that was a poor word choice on my part. Your "different" is a much better terminology. Thank you.

Why on earth would anyone say, or believe, that the other 6,000,000,000 people are wrong? How are they wrong? Got any specifics?

Well, I am saying that the church claims to be the one and only true church on the face of the whole earth, isn't that true? That means the others are not 100% true, they are lacking some truth.

Also, in response to others, I am only saying that there are millions of other people who claim to have had prayed and received the answer that what they are practicing is true.

[Misshalfway]

Yellow,

Do you have any concerns about doctrine or BofM? Or are your concerns confined to the historical details and chain//evolution of events?

[Misshalfway]

Well, I am saying that the church claims to be the one and only true church on the face of the whole earth, isn't that true? That means the others are not 100% true, they are lacking some truth.

Also, in response to others, I am only saying that there are millions of other people who claim to have had prayed and received the answer that what they are practicing is true.

What is your answer to this question?

[HiJolly]

Well, I am saying that the church claims to be the one and only true church on the face of the whole earth, isn't that true? That means the others are not 100% true, they are lacking some truth.

Scripture doesn't say "one and only true church", not even in D&C 1:30. I don't, either. I *do* say it's true, though, because I have a testimony that it is. I'll even grant you that I believe it is the only "true and living" Church, but I doubt that distinction is as impressive to most folks, as it is to me. It's WAY important to me. And this is not some sort of competition, either. Just because the LDS Church has truth, even is the 'true and living' church, that doesn't mean the other churches don't have truth!! That's been repeated in General Conference (and elsewhere, I'm sure) many times.

Also, in response to others, I am only saying that there are millions of other people who claim to have had prayed and received the answer that what they are practicing is true.

...and why not? I'm good with that, and so should anyone else that believes in and loves God. I'm wondering if the problem is in how you think of 'true'. Maybe that's it.

HiJolly

[rameumptom]

It does matter though. God is a God of order. This is the biggest question I have...If history does not line up or there are large contradictions with the restoration of the Christ's church, how can we know it is right. There is more evidence showing that something is wrong. However, some people say they still know it is true, no matter what evidence is shown to them. If Joseph Smith came and visited each member and told them it wasn't true, there are many that would still believe.

This is due to your testimony based on feelings from the holy spirit. The question is, every other religion in the world says they received a confirmation almost identical to the one you received. Thus, how do you know you are right, and the other 6,000,000,000 people on earth are wrong?

Yes, he is a God of order. But it is God that determines order, not us. And God has to establish that order amidst the chaos of mortality. He is, after all, working with imperfect beings.

Joseph started his work with the Urim and Thummim, two shiny stones set kind of like glasses. These U&T were very large, and difficult for Joseph to use. It seems that the Lord provided an easier way for him to do the same work.

Jeremiah was commanded to write a book calling Israel to repentance. The king, upon hearing the words, took the book and burned it. The Lord then had Jeremiah reconstruct the book. God is a God of order, but sometimes has to work around the acts and inefficiencies of men.

The issue, then, isn't about how many methods Joseph had to translate, but whether God called Joseph to translate and gave him the gift of translation. In this instance, once we have a sure witness of the call, then the process and history just adds more information for us to consider and understand, without being shocked.

[rameumptom]

Well, I am saying that the church claims to be the one and only true church on the face of the whole earth, isn't that true? That means the others are not 100% true, they are lacking some truth.

Also, in response to others, I am only saying that there are millions of other people who claim to have had prayed and received the answer that what they are practicing is true.

We teach that there is truth and light in virtually all churches. We, however, believe that we have been given greater light and truth that other churches have lost and/or rejected. Insofar as they are correct, they and their people are blessed by God, and will receive salvation and a kingdom of heaven.

Can you show me these "millions of other people" who have actually prayed about their own churches? Most that I've spoken with have never done so, nor even considered doing so. In fact, some Christian churches do not believe in the modern spiritual gifts of the Spirit (Church of Christ is one of them), and so would not believe that God manifests to them through the Spirit that a specific church is true.

Next, many people are satisfied with their religion, and do not seek to determine if it really is true or not. Why ask if Joseph Smith is a prophet, if my current pastor really rocks, and I like the luncheons on Sundays?

How many people are ready to accept a higher level of truth? How many people are ready to begin paying 10% tithes, fully keeping the Sabbath day holy, and perhaps go on a self-paid mission? Most people shrink from such things before getting to the point of sincerely asking.

Alma 29:8 tells us that God gives to all people the amount of light and truth they are ready to receive. So, if a person is only ready for the things taught by religion X, then why would God give them anything beyond that which would condemn them unnecessarily? Why tell a person through the Spirit that the LDS Church is true, if the person is not interested in the answer and would not change his/her life if they knew that answer? If God truly loves the world, then he wouldn't force upon people a spiritual witness and responsibility that they have neither sought for, nor desired. And he doesn't.

You'll recall in the New Testament, it tells us that in some places Jesus was not able to do miracles because of the lack of faith among the people. He did not force miracles down their collective throat to force them to believe. Instead, he preached, and those that did believe were blessed with greater truth and light and miracles.

On my mission, we prayed about Joseph Smith once with some Christian preachers we taught. One of them wanted to pray, and so his prayer went like this: "Lord, we know that what we have now is the truth, but if Joseph Smith is a prophet, go ahead and let us know." They got the answer they were looking for. Nothing.

Others that I've prayed with do not understand the importance of specificity in prayer. One man asked the Lord to "show him the right way." It wasn't until I explained to him that the right way was in front of him but he still did not know if the Book of Mormon was true that we were able to pray specifically about the BoM and he gained a witness of it.

I find that many that do not receive a witness of the LDS Church usually fall into one of these two groups. Either they are not interested in gaining a witness, or they are not asking God in the right way.

Finally, God answers those who are ready to change their lives. Why send a spiritual witness to a person who loves his drugs or his sleeping around more than he/she loves God? Only a humble and penitent person, someone without a hardened heart and stiff neck, will gain a witness.

[MaidservantX]

Rameumptom, could you clarify who Kathryn Danes is, and the source of that quote? Thanks. :)

It does matter though. God is a God of order. This is the biggest question I have...If history does not line up or there are large contradictions with the restoration of the Christ's church, how can we know it is right. There is more evidence showing that something is wrong. However, some people say they still know it is true, no matter what evidence is shown to them. If Joseph Smith came and visited each member and told them it wasn't true, there are many that would still believe.

This is due to your testimony based on feelings from the holy spirit. The question is, every other religion in the world says they received a confirmation almost identical to the one you received. Thus, how do you know you are right, and the other 6,000,000,000 people on earth are wrong?

:) When you say, 'it' what are you referring to? The methods of Joseph Smith's translation? The fact that details of the methods of translation have in the past not been plainly referred to in Sunday School? Or . . .? If 'it' is either of those two items, I can respect that it matters to you, YellowLight; and I hope that you can respect that neither of those two things matters to me in terms of my spiritual progression and my choice to be a member of Jesus Christ's church.

God is a God of a lot of things . . . :)

You are framing the information you are learning about now as "contradictions". That's a frame not a reality. My frame for the same information is that they are "interesting details" or "in-depth details" or "clarifying details". Both of our frames are valid in that we can choose our own frames for all types of information and knowledge (not just religious or spiritual).

You sound like you are a person to whom evidence is important. I respect that. Evidence is not how I enjoy gaining knowledge in the main. I trust personal experience, my own and others. I never check for evidence and I don't trust evidence. I always check for experience; evidence is nice, but not the crux. Again -- your way is valid in general; my way is valid in general (for any arena of knowledge). We're just different.

It is interesting that you mention a conversation with Joseph Smith. For me I always think of my belief in his report that the Father and the Son appeared to him as a conversation that Joseph Smith could have had with me. We (Joseph Smith and I) would be friends, and he would tell me about his experience, and I would believe him. I'm describing myself only with this. (My commitment to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and my belief in Jesus Christ as taught by latter day prophets is not based on a singular, spiritual witness, btw.)

How can we know if something is right? The scriptures teach us how. I hope you enjoy :) seeking for and applying that knowledge.

I have a relationship with my Father in heaven. I try to do what I believe he wants me to do. Joseph Smith, the prophet, my bishop -- no one is between me and my Father and his Son, my Savior. It's a direct relationship, a direct communication, and my lessons are directly from my Father. Upon occasion I forward the question to Him -- "Do you still want me to be in this church?" He usually grins and winks. In any case, I just know I wouldn't enjoy any other religious discipline or pathway other than the one presented in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I experience this Church as a feast, and when I look at other possibilties, the tables look a little bare. I believe Joseph Smith's claims; I believe the Savior's promises. But that's me.:)

I honor everyone else's journey of where they are at, including any church they want to be a part of. I have learned as a matter of human relations principle never (or rarely) to tell another human being that they are wrong. It's simply not my place. God is actively teaching them too.

I wish you God's blessing, YellowLight, in coming to terms as to how you want to conduct your life to reach your full potential and to obtain the greatest joy. Thanks for allowing us to be a part of that journey for a short period. :)

[rameumptom]

MaidServantX wrote:

Rameumptom, could you clarify who Kathryn Danes is, and the source of that quote? Thanks.

Kathryn Daynes is an Associate Professor of History at BYU. She was a lecturer at a seminar in Indianapolis (IUPUI) in April, entitled: Mormons and the American Life. She lectured on the changing Polygamy Laws of the 19th century, with Sarah (Sally) Barringer Gordon, Professor of Law and History, Univ of Pennsylvania (who I believe is Catholic).

Info on the seminar here: http://www.iupui.edu/~raac/downloads/CSRAC.pdf

[tubaloth]

So how far has everybody come sense I last read on like page 7. From just glancing at the last two pages everything is (still) just general ideas or discussion. Is anybody getting any closer to any REAL answers? (sense that is what I guess Yellow came here for)????

I do suggest that if Yellow wants at least MORE specific answers, you ask more spesific questions (with sources if possible). Lets get to the root of the problem instead of trying to shake the leaves.

If you want general answers, then ask general questions. Like do I believe all (other) churchs are wrong. Yes, does that mean they are bad or in some way of the devil. No. I believe they don't have all the truth, but thats okay! I also believe that people are blessed for what truth they follow be that 10% or 50%. But also I would expect them to have at least some type of same view about me. I would expect them to believe that I'm trying to follow the truth, that I'm doing the best I can! I would also believe that they feel they have all the truth (or as much truth as God has given us). I don't see how anybody can "join" a religlon with out believe its the "best", that it does all that is required to help them get to heaven! But in reality we all can't be right! (thats more a fact). We can run around in circles trying to figure it out, but the spirit has to play a part! I know I have felt the spirit thats all it can be for me! If others feel that way, so be it! Well let God sort it out in the next life. Bot for me, I know where the truth is!

If you want general answers, I guess we can keep posting for another 20 pages.

[rameumptom]

I think Tubaloth touches on a thought that I'd hope other religions would speak more about. While LDS believe almost all will be saved through Christ's atonement in a kingdom of glory, there are many religions that suggest, if not outright teach, that those who do not believe exactly as they do will burn in hell forever.

Even the TULIP idea of Calvin only allows for a limited atonement (the "L" in TULIP). You are either forcibly changed by God's irresistible grace, or you burn forever. St Augustine taught that babies who die without baptism would burn in hell, causing the Catholic Church to invent Limbo. Of course, Pope Benedict XVI has declared Limbo as non-scriptural, so now the RCC is trying to determine some saving grace for babies that die without baptism. This is very different than our teaching that Christ has paid for original sin, and so babies and small children who die are saved in Christ's grace.

With that as an example of background; and note I am not condemning any of these concepts, just contrasting them; how does one take such ideas and fit them into the concept of "God so loved the world..." (John 3:16-17)? Where is God's great mercy, if God makes it near impossible to be saved? What happens to the South American native who never heard of Christ - must he burn simply because God chose to create him somewhere the gospel was not available? How does that suggest a loving and kind God? Why would God create everyone, command a particular faith, then condemn the vast majority who have not had the opportunity to embrace Christ; or worse, predestine them to damnation?

In my mind, this is a huge dichotomy. How can a Baptist be saved for professing Christ, but Mormons burn in hell because we believe in some different ancient concepts that also were believed and taught anciently in the Bible (like an anthropomorphic God, divine council, etc.)?

Personally, I'll stick with a version that shows God as truly merciful and beneficent, which would require a near universal salvation from death and hell.