Bruce R. McConkie & Apostasy

[Hemidakota]

I can't remember the movie...but it took place in the 70's...afterwards, my son looked at me and exclaimed...Oh please Dad...tell me you NEVER looked like that....

My silence soooooooooooooo condemned me:roflmbo:

Even today, we are careful in not wearing the THREE PIECE SUIT, oversize pattern ties, or flair suit pants.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I was new convert to the church and was not properly trained or theological educated enough about appropriate church attire. Being a single adult, I went with my friend who converted me, to a Stake Singles Fireside. The theme was about the Savior, Jesus the Christ and our guest speaker was the Stake President.

My manner of dress was of a selection of clothing that was previously purchase prior to my conversion of the best picked clothing [nice disco shirt, matching tie, and dress slack] in my closet since I had no suit at the time due to my large statue. Being born-again with this founded church, I was very exhilarated in going and learn about my Elder Brother.

I always ensure that I sat close to the front of the meeting to not only hear every word but to feel of that spirit that was being manifested. During the meeting the Stake President kept looking at me, which I have no clue why, until he changed the main topic to that of manner of dress code and what was is appropriate to wear in the chapel. I felt the spirit of wholesome and delight turned into one of vexation.

This went on for few more minutes when I began to feel I was being singled out as the only single adult who was picked on. Perhaps, it was my wearing of the entire unsettled him. Why, did this happen and especially from a Stake President? I really don’t know what caused this man to presume that I was doing out despite of church rules. All I can say, I was ignorance of the church’s dress code.

During the latter portion of the meeting, the Stake President became ill and had to leave the meeting and cut his talk short.

In my tenure within that Stake, in becoming a regional single adult rep, I felt the spirit of uneasiness with this Stake President until he was finally replaced [earlier than usual for a stake president].

My experiences by the hand of the Lord, this is His church and not mans. If there is a problem that we face with local leadership who strives to cause displeasure with certain members, I am a firm believer; you follow the leader and strive to correct that individual through vocal and prayer [softening the spirit]. If the individual refuse to be corrected and continues in error, then take it to the Lord Himself. This one always works. I can attest to it.

How sad that people sometimes seem to regard what a person is wearing as more important than what is in their heart.

Many years ago the missionaries brought a teenage girl to church. She was dressed entirely in black, with spiked hair, white face with black eyeshadow and lipstick, a safety pin through her nose, pierced lips, chains attached to her black combat pants and zips all over her. Her boots looked like steel toe capped workman's footwear.

It was a fast and testimony meeting and this young girl stood up and told how she had felt when the missionaries talked to her, how she felt that what she was told was the truth and wanted to be part of it.

The congregation looked horrified. Many did not seem to hear her words for looking at her appearance. Some in fact told the missionaries that they should not have brought her dressed like that. However, she kept coming and was baptised. She eventually brought her mother into the church.

Just over a year after her mother was baptised the same girl was preparing to serve a mission and looked like she'd been born in the church. She has since married in the temple and brought up her children in the gospel.

[utcowboy]

That is an awesome story Willow and its great that she was able to turn her life around. I for one don't usually care what an investigator wears to church, what bothers me are the people that have been members for a long time and know what is appropriate. I for one think that if a person dresses nicely that their attitude will reflect a more reverent and peaceful manner.

My wife and I tell our kids that if its something that you'll wear to school or out with friends (an ordinary occasion) then you don't wear it to church. I'm of the belief that you should save your best for the Lord, always offer your best in worship. Just my opinion, take it or leave it... :)

[Hemidakota]

I do agree...we change when we are ready to receive the appropriate answer by the Spirit of correction.

Willow, that saddens me seeing members displeasures over her looks. I had a friend who was like that and joined the church with aid from the missionaries and members of the ward. Through the process of his own Spiritual maturity, he began that change in his church attire, hiding the arm tattoos, and then removing the ear rings, the nose ring, lip ring, and eventually began wearing a white shirt and then a two piece suit. None of which was done by church members but the Spirit was slowly transforming that man his inner to his outer.

I am grateful that there are members out there that really do fellowship others into the gospel.

He now serves in a Bishropic...:)

[skalenfehl]

Thank you, Rameumpton and gwozz. You confirmed what I wrote in a previous post.

[Hemidakota]

This happened to Peter!

Luke 22:31-34

31 ¶ And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

Peter, being human, did deny Christ three times, but in the end he became valiant in his testimony and repented when Christ told him three times to feed his sheep. That is akin to missionary work, hometeaching, etc. In the end Peter was hung upside down, and I read somewhere, that perhaps he did not feel worthy to be crucified in the same manner as Christ and so he was crucified upside down. Other apostles also died horrible deaths, sealing their testimonies with their blood. They truly had been converted.

Conversion as said in Luke, came later, "...and when thou art converted,"

[skalenfehl]

Conversion as said in Luke, came later, "...and when thou art converted,"

I know. Hence the reason I wrote at the end of my post that by the time they were martyred, they had been converted.

[Hemidakota]

It was not specifically meant for you since you pretty much understood why Peter denied the Christ.

It was meant for others who claimed otherwise.

'U da man'

[sixpacktr]

Pres Benson (yes, another Prophet that was just too blunt for those that have a hard time feeling the spirit) once said that the solution of the world is to take the man out of the ghetto, the solution of spirit is to take the ghetto out of the man.

We that have had that baptism by the spirit have had some of that ghetto taken out of us. We do things because we KNOW it is the right thing to do, not because of a book or the rules or that we might incur displeasure from others (and in our pride try to stick it up their noses to show them that you won't stand for their santimonious behavior!). We do it because it is written in our hearts and we want to obey. It is something that those that don't have a testimony borne of the spirit will never understand. Instead, we are 'mind numbed robots', those that 'can't think for themselves' etc. They deny the power of the spirit in people's lives because they don't understand it.

[Hemidakota]

Years ago when I first met President Benson, before this man entered the doorway, the room was illuminated and the Spirit entered first.

[sixpacktr]

Hemi,

My father spoke of a time that Elder Packer (my favorite speaker, I always just love his talks. And, strangely, another one that some members have a problem with. What we really need are more popular prophets, those that speak with a smooth tongue so that they don't offend anyone! But I digress...) came to our stake to make a new stake and interview for a new SP. My father, being a HP, was able to meet with him, and he stated that when he walked in he actually saw a white aura about Elder Packer. The Spirit is definitely with the Lord's anointed, particularly his apostles in the Latter Days...

[Guest User-Removed]

Hemi,

My father spoke of a time that Elder Packer (my favorite speaker, I always just love his talks. And, strangely, another one that some members have a problem with. What we really need are more popular prophets, those that speak with a smooth tongue so that they don't offend anyone! But I digress...) came to our stake to make a new stake and interview for a new SP. My father, being a HP, was able to meet with him, and he stated that when he walked in he actually saw a white aura about Elder Packer. The Spirit is definitely with the Lord's anointed, particularly his apostles in the Latter Days...

It seems to me, that daily we see "Traditional Christianity" attempting more and more to resemble and appeal to modern man...Yet, at the same time, I see and hear our Prophets exhorting us more and more to strive for exaltation...something you don't see in the lil church down around the corner.

I find comfort in the words of Elder Packer...and others.

I was saddened once to hear someone snidely remark that if they had to choose between the writings of D. Michael Quinn or Boyd K. Packer...they'd choose Quinn hands down...

[Snow]

I was saddened once to hear someone snidely remark that if they had to choose between the writings of D. Michael Quinn or Boyd K. Packer...they'd choose Quinn hands down...

I'd be interested to see what the poster really said. Could you please post the exact quote, in context?

[Guest User-Removed]

It seems to me, that daily we see "Traditional Christianity" attempting more and more to resemble and appeal to modern man...Yet, at the same time, I see and hear our Prophets exhorting us more and more to strive for exaltation...something you don't see in the lil church down around the corner.

I find comfort in the words of Elder Packer...and others.

I was saddened once to hear someone snidely remark that if they had to choose between the writings of D. Michael Quinn or Boyd K. Packer...they'd choose Quinn hands down...

Snow...Above is the entire contents of my post you're calling into question.

The snide comment didn't come from anyone on any thread here. It actually came about as I showed a couple of friends the various posts some months ago, where I was routinely "slagged and beaten up" for my views on D. Michael Quinn. (You might recall those posts, since you were one of the leading members...attacking my views on Quinn)

NOW...Before you climb your Rameumpton and sing the praises of D. Michael Quinn...he was not the object of this post. He was simply a side bar.

As my friends and I discussed various Church issues, she exclaimed boldly that people like Quinn and his fellow Semptember Six, were "wronged" by the likes of Elder Packer. At some point during the conversation, I asked her ... in much the same language as Elder Packer's famous talk..."Who's side are you on"...without skipping a beat...Her response was "between the writings of Quinn or Packer...she'll take Quinn"

As I said in my original post, I was/am saddend by that response.

I'm really not interested in turning this thread back into a "D. Michael Quinn is a sad victim" thread, nor do I want to see you or others go into Defcon 4 because I once again used the "Q" word.

As I've posted on other threads here, I am still amazed at the number of folks who seem to have no problem calling evil good and good evil.

NOW, lest anyone suddenly find their knickers in a twist...none of the foregoing comments should be contrued as a personal attack against anyone. I'm merely commenting on the 5 W's of what's going on around here and elsewhere.

[rameumptom]

Snow...Above is the entire contents of my post you're calling into question.

The snide comment didn't come from anyone on any thread here. It actually came about as I showed a couple of friends the various posts some months ago, where I was routinely "slagged and beaten up" for my views on D. Michael Quinn. (You might recall those posts, since you were one of the leading members...attacking my views on Quinn)

NOW...Before you climb your Rameumpton and sing the praises of D. Michael Quinn...he was not the object of this post. He was simply a side bar.

As my friends and I discussed various Church issues, she exclaimed boldly that people like Quinn and his fellow Semptember Six, were "wronged" by the likes of Elder Packer. At some point during the conversation, I asked her ... in much the same language as Elder Packer's famous talk..."Who's side are you on"...without skipping a beat...Her response was "between the writings of Quinn or Packer...she'll take Quinn"

As I said in my original post, I was/am saddend by that response.

I'm really not interested in turning this thread back into a "D. Michael Quinn is a sad victim" thread, nor do I want to see you or others go into Defcon 4 because I once again used the "Q" word.

As I've posted on other threads here, I am still amazed at the number of folks who seem to have no problem calling evil good and good evil.

NOW, lest anyone suddenly find their knickers in a twist...none of the foregoing comments should be contrued as a personal attack against anyone. I'm merely commenting on the 5 W's of what's going on around here and elsewhere.

I hope Snow does not choose to climb upon me. BTW, you misspelled "Rameumptom." It's a common thing. Sadly, Mormons are not known for their proper grammar, and the Internet has often lowered the level of discourse to correcting others' statements - both logically and etymologically.

As for the Mighty Quinn, my understanding is he lost his membership due to changes in his lifestyle. Those knuckleheads that insist that the September Six were all innocent and pure followers of the LDS Church and that offered up flowers to bring both sides together, really do not understand the Lord's Church. There are standards. This includes both commandments and doctrines. While Quinn was often controversial in his writings, I believe that he fell due to commandments. There were others that fell due to the pride they had in their own teachings, such as praying to Mother in Heaven; but I don't think he was one of them. As I understand it, he still believes in the Church, even though he does not follow all its commandments or precepts.

If I'm wrong in this, please, someone, correct me.

[KosherXMorg]

I hope Snow does not choose to climb upon me. BTW, you misspelled "Rameumptom." It's a common thing. Sadly, Mormons are not known for their proper grammar, and the Internet has often lowered the level of discourse to correcting others' statements - both logically and etymologically.

As for the Mighty Quinn, my understanding is he lost his membership due to changes in his lifestyle. Those knuckleheads that insist that the September Six were all innocent and pure followers of the LDS Church and that offered up flowers to bring both sides together, really do not understand the Lord's Church. There are standards. This includes both commandments and doctrines. While Quinn was often controversial in his writings, I believe that he fell due to commandments. There were others that fell due to the pride they had in their own teachings, such as praying to Mother in Heaven; but I don't think he was one of them. As I understand it, he still believes in the Church, even though he does not follow all its commandments or precepts.

If I'm wrong in this, please, someone, correct me.

I believe he was "cut off" due to his writings it only came out later that he was a ***** (their term not mine). But I could be wrong.

Removed slang term ~ Please see the following rule for clarification:

11. You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this site to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law.

Even though you didn't use the term, you didn't have to repeat it.

Canuck Mormon

[WillowTheWhisp]

So who are the 'September Six' and what did they do?

[Guest User-Removed]

So who are the 'September Six' and what did they do?

willow...for brevity...here's a link to a wikipeida on them...

September Six - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Guest User-Removed]

I hope Snow does not choose to climb upon me. BTW, you misspelled "Rameumptom." It's a common thing. Sadly, Mormons are not known for their proper grammar, and the Internet has often lowered the level of discourse to correcting others' statements - both logically and etymologically.

As for the Mighty Quinn, my understanding is he lost his membership due to changes in his lifestyle. Those knuckleheads that insist that the September Six were all innocent and pure followers of the LDS Church and that offered up flowers to bring both sides together, really do not understand the Lord's Church. There are standards. This includes both commandments and doctrines. While Quinn was often controversial in his writings, I believe that he fell due to commandments. There were others that fell due to the pride they had in their own teachings, such as praying to Mother in Heaven; but I don't think he was one of them. As I understand it, he still believes in the Church, even though he does not follow all its commandments or precepts.

If I'm wrong in this, please, someone, correct me.

Writing on the board one hundred times...I will never again mis-spell Rameumptom....

As to the rest of your comments, i'm going to await snow's response and see where we can take it from there.

BUT...you are correct in your view...most of the September Six are founding members of the "I'm just a little smarter than your average Apostle" club....

[Moksha]

As for the Mighty Quinn, my understanding is he lost his membership due to changes in his lifestyle. Those knuckleheads that insist that the September Six were all innocent and pure followers of the LDS Church and that offered up flowers to bring both sides together, really do not understand the Lord's Church. There are standards. This includes both commandments and doctrines. While Quinn was often controversial in his writings, I believe that he fell due to commandments. There were others that fell due to the pride they had in their own teachings, such as praying to Mother in Heaven; but I don't think he was one of them. As I understand it, he still believes in the Church, even though he does not follow all its commandments or precepts.

I watched a Youtube video from Mormon-Stories not too long ago and you point about Dr. Quinn still believing in the Church is exactly what he said. As perhaps the foremost Mormon historian of his time, it was a shame that he was rejected because of writing about inconvenient history. Of course, there was that lifestyle thing you alluded to that caused him problems as well.

I think one of the September Six ladies has since rejoined the Church.

[Snow]

Snow...Above is the entire contents of my post you're calling into question.

The snide comment didn't come from anyone on any thread here. It actually came about as I showed a couple of friends the various posts some months ago, where I was routinely "slagged and beaten up" for my views on D. Michael Quinn. (You might recall those posts, since you were one of the leading members...attacking my views on Quinn)

NOW...Before you climb your Rameumpton and sing the praises of D. Michael Quinn...he was not the object of this post. He was simply a side bar.

As my friends and I discussed various Church issues, she exclaimed boldly that people like Quinn and his fellow Semptember Six, were "wronged" by the likes of Elder Packer. At some point during the conversation, I asked her ... in much the same language as Elder Packer's famous talk..."Who's side are you on"...without skipping a beat...Her response was "between the writings of Quinn or Packer...she'll take Quinn"

As I said in my original post, I was/am saddend by that response.

I'm really not interested in turning this thread back into a "D. Michael Quinn is a sad victim" thread, nor do I want to see you or others go into Defcon 4 because I once again used the "Q" word.

As I've posted on other threads here, I am still amazed at the number of folks who seem to have no problem calling evil good and good evil.

NOW, lest anyone suddenly find their knickers in a twist...none of the foregoing comments should be contrued as a personal attack against anyone. I'm merely commenting on the 5 W's of what's going on around here and elsewhere.

I repeat: I'd be interested to see what the poster in question really said. Could you please post the exact quote, in context?

[Snow]

As perhaps the foremost Mormon historian of his time, it was a shame that he was rejected because of writing about inconvenient history.

I'd be interested to see the source material of your claim that he was "rejected" because of writing about inconvenient history.

[Snow]

I hope Snow does not choose to climb upon me. BTW, you misspelled "Rameumptom." It's a common thing. Sadly, Mormons are not known for their proper grammar, and the Internet has often lowered the level of discourse to correcting others' statements - both logically and etymologically.

As for the Mighty Quinn, my understanding is he lost his membership due to changes in his lifestyle. Those knuckleheads that insist that the September Six were all innocent and pure followers of the LDS Church and that offered up flowers to bring both sides together, really do not understand the Lord's Church. There are standards. This includes both commandments and doctrines. While Quinn was often controversial in his writings, I believe that he fell due to commandments. There were others that fell due to the pride they had in their own teachings, such as praying to Mother in Heaven; but I don't think he was one of them. As I understand it, he still believes in the Church, even though he does not follow all its commandments or precepts.

If I'm wrong in this, please, someone, correct me.

Why wait to be corrected? You are the one making the claim - that he fell due to commandments. As the one making the claim, you bear the burden of proof.

[Over43]

I don't believe this is a generalization. I find the quote dead on accurate. I have known many people who have left the church (not because they don't believe doctrinal principles) but they want to enjoy the ways of the world.

I think I agree. Some may claim it's because of doctrinal issues, etc. But, for the majority it comes down to wanting to do one's own thing.

O43

[rameumptom]

Why wait to be corrected? You are the one making the claim - that he fell due to commandments. As the one making the claim, you bear the burden of proof.

I made no claim. I stated that it was my understanding, but I also stated I could be wrong on what happened almost 20 years ago. I bear no burden of proof, because I registered an opinion, not a statement. As it is, Quinn has written some very good stuff, and some not so good things (I'm skeptical about his Jupiter-talisman claims, for example). But then, I could say the same thing about JFS' "historical" writings that make Joseph Smith and his successors seem like they could do no wrong.

And as I stated, Quinn still professes belief in the gospel, though he is not obliged to live it right now. To me, it is immaterial what he was excommunicated for, as I was not in the counsel that did it. If he publishes quality stuff, I'll use it; and if he writes trash, I won't.