Finrock

Good afternoon tovarisch, Thanks for you last post. I appreciated those comments. I see all of these anachronisms as simply either lacking substance or just lacking evidence at the moment. Of course this presupposes a position of faith. I don't think I'm alone or even uncritical, but I am one who never really doubted the veracity and truthfulness of the Book of Mormon while growing up. I felt the same way about the Bible, really. I just accepted that they were from God to the degree that I did. When I was very young (say 8 or 9) I wasn't really reading much from the Book of Mormon or Bible. If I was it was sporadic. However, when I got a bit older my family moved in to an area where there were more members of the Church and we became, at least to a degree (again), more active as a family and I became more active in the Church. Looking back I was always eager to be in Sunday school and to learn about the gospel. Also looking back I know a good portion of my desire to learn is attributed to vainglory. Meaning, I think I could pick up what was being taught easier than others and I've just always had different interest than most around me, and so I really enjoyed learning the material, but, I also very much enjoyed the attention and praise I would get in class because of my supposed "superior" understanding. This being the case, my motivations weren't exactly sincere. I wasn't striving to learn so that I could follow the precepts, but rather I was striving to learn so that I could get praise. Nonetheless, I didn't disbelieve either. I just had other priorities and wasn't myself truly getting what was being taught. There was an intellectual and factual knowledge but no substance, no true wisdom. I was not spiritually converted. But, time goes on and thanks to great Sunday school teachers, bishops, home teachers, primary teachers, and others I was able to have religious or rather spiritual experiences where I felt the Holy Spirit while being taught, or when I heard others testify. Something pricked my heart enough that my basic acceptance and belief was turned in to a small seed of faith. By the time I was old enough to serve a mission I had basically determined that I wanted to be what the LDS faith was directing me to be. Also, thanks to the good example of my brother (Vanhin, btw for all you old timers), I wanted to follow his footsteps and serve a mission like he did. So, I determined to do that. Armed with my small fledgling faith and my many weaknesses, I set out on my mission. On my mission I began to read the Book of Mormon fervently. I loved the MTC. For me it was the spiritual boost I needed. If my faith was a fledgling plant, then the MTC was to my faith what premium fertilizer is to plants. Being in the MTC I felt the Spirit in powerful ways that made my faith concrete in respect to the truthfulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the scriptures. On my mission I read the Book of Mormon several times over. I understood it. I felt its power. I could not deny the feelings that I felt when I read from the book. I could not deny the thoughts that entered my mind as I read from the Book of Mormon that made me feel awe and joy. On my mission I was exposed to much anti-Mormon material. Even before then I had an uncle who would leave around his house Chick Tracts and so I knew some of the things we were accused of. But, on my mission I had to confront it head on and deal with it. As I learned new things and often negative things about the Church, I would wonder and question, but I would not allow myself to doubt because then I would have to deny experiences I knew that I had had. On my mission I would actually go to the libraries there with my companions and check out books on Masonics, early christianity, anti-Mormon literature, etc., so that I could understand all of these allegations against the Church and then be able to at least contend with them from a position of knowledge rather than blind ignorance. All of these experiences increased my testimony in the Book of Mormon. Despite anachronisms and other contentions against the Book of Mormon I simply cannot deny the spiritual experiences I have had on account of reading, studying, and applying the principles in the Book of Mormon. To this day I continue to read and study out of the Book of Mormon. Over the years I have learned that much that was thought anachronistic turned out not to be. And many of the issues of the past have faded away as new evidence has surfaced. I believe in the Book of Mormon completely. I believe that all things will be made clear one day. The Book of Mormon is a true book. You can rely on it. You can live your life by its precepts and you will find joy. You will find Jesus Christ by applying what you read in the book. Respectfully, Finrock

I was reading from the Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus. To give some background, the author of this epistle is believed to have almost certainly been a disciple of one of the twelve apostles after Jesus's ascension. This epistle is believed to have been written around A.D. 130 and is considered one of the works of the Apostolic Fathers. It was written during a time when most all of the apostles had been martyred. I add this to this thread because the author's words indicate an understanding of the Eternal Economy of God. I think it beautifully describes what God's work is and therefore what our work ought to be. God's work is one of lifting up those who are below (NOTE: When I have used the term "below" in this context and thread I have never been implying a position of pride or arrogance). God is constantly taking those who do not have a fulness and working to lift them up so that they might have a fulness. In the same sense, once we decide to join God's order we too must seek to lift others up so that they too can enjoy all of the blessings of the Father. Source EDIT: I also wanted to add here that from my research the word "imitator" as used in this epistle is not be understood in the sense that we might understand imitator today (generally an imitator in our day connotes one who is false or not the real thing). Imitator comes from the Latin root of imitatus. This means that imitator, in the context used in this epistle, has the same meaning as "image" as it is used in Genesis and other parts of the scriptures which in context means "exact likeness". But, I'm not an expert and I am open to being corrected. Regards, Finrock

Good Afternoon guenzo! Welcome to the forums. I hope you are doing well today! :) I understand where you are coming from guenzo and I don't judge you for your desires. I understand the deep desire to be intellectually connected with your spouse so that you can share with them these wonderful thoughts, ideas, and impressions that you may have. Perhaps all of the other posters here have more wisdom than either you or I and perhaps it is true that this is a desire that should be abandoned. For me, I almost can't stop thinking, pondering, and trying to see and find patterns in things. I like to know why something is the case. I want to get to the core of an issue. I also am one who isn't satisfied with just doing something halfway and this is my approach to whatever subject matter that I become interested in and I want to know all that I can about it. During all of this research, pondering, and thinking I come across things that I think are awesome, or truth, or principles that will improve our life, etc. and it pains me when I feel that I can't share this part of me with my wife. It is also true that it hurts because this is a part of me that my wife cannot or does not appreciate. I know for me this isn't about me thinking that my wife is dumb or that I am better than her (although I have given in to this temptation in the past). It is really about having a sense of intimacy with my wife and this "intellectualism" part of my character is a major part of my identity and who I am and not feeling a connection with my spouse on this feels like to me like my wife doesn't really know or understand me. Right or wrong, these are my feelings. But, I also understand this truth: During His mortality, Jesus Christ was more wise than everyone. While on this earth His superior knowledge and wisdom never prevented Him from having intimate relationships with others. From what I can tell, Jesus was able to have intimate and close relationships with those who were clearly His inferiors because He became interested in what the other person knows. He constantly sought to uplift and edify others. He did all things for the good of others. I am chastising myself right now, but get to know your wife as intimately as you want to be known. Focus your energy and power in understanding her and her needs just as you want her to understand and know your needs then trust in God and in the Spirit to provide you satisfaction. Regards, Finrock

I have some other thoughts but for starters, one thing that this video helped me to see with greater clarity is the fact that our God is not a distant God. He is actively and intimately engaged in the affairs of this earth. He has not other work than to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life. We tend to think of the earth in terms of what we have learned from science and the history books. I am not saying that this is bad and wrong. It is useful. However, we also need to see the history of the earth with eyes and ears that recognize God's hand in bringing about his covenants. I can't remember right now if this was in the video or not or where I got this thought from, but God is constantly working to fulfill His words. It is a constant process of fulfilling. The idea of bringing to fulness all of His words to me has many applications. This earth truly is a testing place. It is not a random globe brought about through random chance. God is moving His work forward and He is fulfilling His promises. The truth is that there are truly just two sides. Satan and his followers or God and His followers. Regards, Finrock

Only saw now. I will watch and share thoughts. Regards, Finrock

Home teaching is just a tool to allow us to fulfill our baptismal covenants. It is easy to look at it as some program, but it is not. A home teacher is loving your neighbor as yourself. It is bearing one anothers burdens. It is a chance to show your love for God. My home teacher saved me from falling away because he came consistently and was sincere. We knew that he truly cared for us. His example helped me to be motivated and to be better. The secret ingredient truly is love and we can pray for it to have it and with consistent visits we can develope true relationships with our brothers and sisters. Just think of the good that you can do with a little effort. God has taken my small acts and made them great. Yet i still struggle with this principle so I also understand the frustrations. Regards, Finrock

Good afternoon mnn727. I hope you are doing well today! :) Here is Part 2 and covers the rest of the assertions I made. God has a specific plan for each individual. The scriptures say that there is a plan of redemption (Alma 22:13). This is also called the plan of salvation or the plan of happiness. This is the general plan that God has for us. When the scriptures mention the plan of redemption specifically they are talking about this general plan of redemption which outlines the pattern by which mankind can be saved. So, where is the individual plan? To see this it is helpful to take a look at the examples found in scripture. The prophets and apostles in the scriptures provided a testimony of the reality of the general plan of redemption because they had individually experienced and lived according to the plan of redemption. As we look at the lives of the prophets and study their experiences we will see that their lives included all of the elements of the plan of redemption but each experience was unique to the individual. For instance, the plan of redemption requires suffering. It requires being tested and tried. Moses suffered and was tested differently than Abraham. Joseph Smith suffered and was tested differently than Enoch. However, their experiences all fell in to a pattern found in the plan of redemption which is that our purification requires us to go through the refiners fire. God has a general plan of redemtion that applies to all but which He individualizes based on the needs, desires, and what is the best for each of His children. This individuality is seen in the patterns and examples found in the lives of the prophets and apostles as recorded in scritpure. Our challenge is to liken the patterns and examples found in the scripture to our own lives so that we too can testify about the plan of redemption because we have experienced it individually and personally. This individuality is also seen in how God has given us gifts and the circumstances He has placed us. Not everyone has the same gifts and not everyone has the same circumstances. Regarding gifts... Regarding circumstances... By the way, all of Jacob 5 testifies how intimately and carefully God attends to His children. One day we will know and see all that has been done for us while we were in mortality. God desires nothing but our happiness and success. Eternal life, by definition means a fullness of joy. God's work and glory is to bring to pass the fullness of joy in mankind. This principle is reaffirmed in the Book of Mormon. Further, as I mentioned already, another name for God's plan is the plan of happiness. The whole of all of the commandments is that they provide us the instructions on what we need to do to have a fullness of joy. Obedience to God is happiness. God desires that ALL of His children obey Him. He wants all of His children to be saved and to be happy. If we ask God in faith for the right things, He will give them to us. I think I covered this already in my first post. Clearly God answers the prayers of the faithful. He has promised that anything we ask that is right He will give us. Then of course there is James 1 Regards, Finrock

Hi Suzie! I hope you are having a good day. :) I haven't been able to figure out who the intended audience of this thread is. I guess I'm asking myself, "Who would NOT agree with you that its wrong to make fun of or harshly criticize fat people?" Your post takes the position that this is a common problem but I'm wondering who the "we" are? Regards, Finrock

Good Afternoon mnn727. I hope you've been well. :) As promised here is Part 1 of my response to your question. I will answer the other questions in another post. God is intricately involved in our daily lives. First, there is something to be learned from the pattern found in all scripture. Taken as a whole, the scriptures testify that God is intricately involved in our daily lives. For instance, much of the Doctrine and Covenants came about because God was involved with the everyday and sometimes mundane affairs of the Church and its members. Specific guidance was given to individuals from God. God is no respector of persons (D&C 1:34-35), therefore all of God's children receive the same attention and care from their loving Father in Heaven. Finally, what is the Gift of the Holy Ghost but having the Spirit with you always. When one lives by the Spirit, God is working through that individual in ALL that they do. God does hear and answer all prayers. As far as God hearing all prayers - He knows our thoughts. He knows what EVERYONE is praying about even before they pray for it. God also answers all prayers of faith uttered to Him. Regards, Finrock

Good Afternoon audreyII. Welcome to the forums! :) I'm going to be a voice that is counter to the counsel you are receiving in which you are being told that you are old school and you need to get with the times when it comes to who does the asking out and so forth. My advice: Be true to what you feel is the right way. There is nothing wrong with your traditional view, either, of expecting a man to be the "man". Regards, Finrock

Good Afternoon Curious_George. It is a pleasure to meet you and welcome to the forums. :) What do the underlined terms mean or what do they entail? Respectfully, Finrock

Glad to hear. Thank you. Truth is that today has not been my best day, but neither has it been my worse. Overall, I am doing well though. I understand that you reject the doctrine of exaltation and eternal life (at least as far as Mormons understand it). However, hopefully you can see that becoming equal with God is not a matter of pride and there is no selfishness involved. If you reject the notion of exaltation, then of course you will not see it as a gift to be accepted. I believe God wants me to be equal with Him, therefore it is a commandment. I, in turn, want to obey God. There is no pride or selfishness in obedience to God's commandments. If God wants me to be like Him, exactly, then that is what I want and I will pursue the course He has laid before me because I love Him and want to obey Him in ALL things. I know that I will never deserve anything from Him and that my worthless efforts are only effectual through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Thank you for taking the time to respond and sharing your thoughts. As you can see, we agree more than we disagree. Regards, Finrock

Hi mnn727. I hope you are doing well today! :) I would be happy to provide doctrinal references for all of those points. I can think of a few doctrinal references off the top of my head, but I want to be able to provide you with a complete answer which I will get to when I have more time. Just wanted to let you know that I intend to answer your question. Sincerely, Finrock

God is intricately involved in our daily lives. God does hear and answer all prayers. God has a specific plan for each individual. God desires nothing but our happiness and success. If we ask God in faith for the right things, He will give them to us. Every one of those points are doctrine and truth. Regards, Finrock

Good Evening Maureen. I hope you've been doing well over the last few days! :) Yes, pride. First, I don't know if there is a real difference in the words "deserve" and "worthy" in this context, but I just want to point out that I used the term "deserve". Nothing more to that point. :) When I ask myself, "Is there any gift from God that I deserve or am worthy of?" the answer is always, "No. I neither deserve nor am I worthy of any gift that God has given me." I am an unprofitable servant and I merit nothing. God has given me my spirit and my body. This earth exist because God made it. He provides the air that I breath. Ever day I can exist and experience mortality because God has provided this for me and for all of us. EVERYTHING I have is because God gave it to me as a gift. But God has not given me any of these gifts because I have done something to deserve them. No, He has done it because He loves me. This of course applies to all of God's children. If you accept the gifts from God which includes everything that you currently have, but then decline the gift of becoming equal with God because you say you don't deserve it, aren't you then also saying that you deserve what you currently have? Isn't it pride to believe that you somehow have merited the things that you have? God should always receive honor and glory, regardless of what we have because we have nothing outside of Him. We should glady accept all gifts from God if He wishes to bestow them upon us. Thank you for your question! Regards, Finrock

Good Afternoon Traveler. I hope you've been well! :) I was speaking to a friend of mine one day about a subject matter similar to here and he told me that when he was a youth he sat in his bishops office for a temple recommend interview. In the office was a picture of the apostles. My friend told me that he pointed to the picture and told his bishop that one day he wanted to be like the apostles. The bishop then corrected my friend and told him that he should not seek after positions and that in the Church we are happy with whatever calling we are given. My friend told me that he didn't say anything at the time, but that the bishop had misunderstood what my friend was saying. He wasn't saying that he desired to have the position of apostle, but what he was speaking about was that he hoped to be as righteous and to exercise the priesthood power like the apostles did. Our position is irrelevant. We don't exercise power in the priesthood because of position. To equate joining the Eternal Economy to one of seeking for position and not being happy that someone else has more than we do, is a gross misrepresentation of this particular principle. Now, I'm not saying that noone believes what you describe, but what I am saying is that what I think Seminarysnoozer is speaking to and what I believe, has nothing to do with envy or seeking for power. Everything I have is because of God. This is true regardless of what I have. What difference does it make to my gratitude or to my utter dependence on God if God grants me access to all that He has? God is willing and able to make us equal with Him. It is what He wants. Who are we to tell Him: "No, Father. I am grateful and enjoy all of your gifts, but not the greatest of all. I do not deserve it!" That to me, sounds like pride. Regards, Finrock

I wrote this thought down back in 2009. To my soul it sounds delicious and right and it makes me want to worship and love God more and to follow Jesus Christ more completely. I share it now for what it is worth. Do what you want with this information. As an essentially free agent, am I going to choose to join the order of Godhood? As an eternally existing being I have no threat of utter destruction. The true motivation is not my death, but my desire to be a part of the Eternal Economy, the Eternal Order. I need to identify myself after the new name, after the Ancient Order. The Ancient Order is one of lifting those below you to be equal with you. It is to share, in all equality, glory and power, which is intelligence. Regards, Finrock

Good Morning Praetorian_Brow. I hope you are doing well today! :) When I say that this is God's Church on earth, I am not being zealous. I have in actuality and in reality received a witness from the Holy Ghost that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's true church. This witness to my spirit is real. I did not make it up or just hear about it or just read about it. I actually experienced it. When I say that I know this is God's Church I am speaking without hypocrisy. This isn't a statement to boast that I am special. I am not. I am nothing. I look at my life and my actions and nothing I have done of myself has been worth anything. It is only when I have obeyed God's words and kept His statutes that my actions, my thoughts, and my words have value...true value. I am telling people what I have experienced, just like I would tell them what I experienced when I went to Disney World or anything else I have experienced that is real and true. There will always be those who will hear and those who will not. It is not my place to decide who gets to hear my testimony and who doesn't. It is my job to not judge and to invite all to come to Jesus Christ by means of being baptized in His Church which He has restored on earth. Regards, Finrock

Good Afternoon Swiper. I hope you are doing well! :) Jesus taught this in the Book of Mormon: Regards, Finrock

Good afternoon justme39. I hope you are having a good day! Welcome to the forum. :) Start where you stand. Take the faith you have now and know what it is. After you know what you believe, be true to this faith completely. For instance, if you believe in God at all, pray to Him. If you believe in the scriptures at all, read them. If you just have a desire to believe, start working that desire up until you have sufficient faith to act. If you have complete integrity to the faith that you have now, then you will receive more and will be blameless; unless you reject the more that is given. Last General Conference Elder Holland spoke on faith and belief and said the following: "The size of your faith or the degree of your knowledge is not the issue—it is the integrity you demonstrate toward the faith you do have and the truth you already know." I invite you to read the whole talk: Lord, I Believe Sincerely, Finrock

Good afternoon Just_A_Guy. I hope you're having a good day! :) You're right. We all learn line-upon-line. Here a little, there a little. There is no shame in this. Regards, Finrock

My best advice to you is to ask God in prayer, in the name of Jesus Christ, to know if this manifestation was from Him and what it means. Then, have faith, search the scriptures, continue to pray, and keep God's commandments. Regards, Finrock

Hi Wingnut! I hope you are doing well. :) Since we are asking, what is the difference? Seems that what I hear on the radio today regardless is just "pop" music. The same tired chords with the same tired subject matters. In country you sing with a twang. If you are a rocker, you sing all rebel like. If you are a rapper, you sound all gansta and move your hands in a special way. But, at the end of the day, its the same chords, same music, same stuff. My opinion, of course. Regards, Finrock

I never attached them to my bike, but we would create all sorts of "launchers". Mostly out of PVC pipe. Plug in one side, light the bottle rocket, drop it in the tube, and point and wait. One day we got really carried away and instead of bottle rockets we started shooting each other with BB and pellet rifles. This was great fun until my friend got shot in the chest. He quickly runs from behind the tree, waiving his hands and yells, "Stop! Stop! What the hell are we thinking?" We were fifteen and sixteen at the time. I don't recall thinking anything other than how funny it was that my friend had a BB lodged in his chest. Regards, Finrock

Good morning JodyTJ. I hope you are having a good day! :) The Holy Ghost is actually a spirit person. It is not just a life force. The "life force" that permeates all of existence, it is what we call the light of Christ, which is different from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is an actual person with spirit hands, spirit legs, spirit eyes, etc. Regards, Finrock