Finrock

Well, yeah, that is why I mentioned it. I didn't mean to imply that they hadn't. I was simply saying I can't speak for others. I have zero problems/issues with Joseph Smith and him practicing polygamy. Maureen, God commanded Joseph to do it. That is truth. You do with that knowledge what you want. When you aren't in the business of casting doubt on one of God's elect it isn't surprising at all. Joseph Smith is an exalted man. He passed his test. You and I are still in the midst of ours. You and I can both look to brother Joseph as an example of humble obedience. Regards, Finrock

This is what I understand based on my research, none of it my original. In most states at the time the age of consent was 10 years old. It was not uncommon for there to be large gaps in age between the wife (wife almost always younger) and husband during the time that plural marriage was practiced. Although not common, teen girls marrying older men was not unusual or thought to be problamatic. Times, mentalities, expectations, and social norms were different back then. The notion of a lost childhood is subjective and relative. A 15 year old in modern day Western society has the luxury of still being called a child. This isn't so in many societies even today. A 15 year old is expected to contribute like an adult. From FAIR.org Joseph Smith/Polygamy/Marriages to young women - FAIRMormon Regards, Finrock

Good afternoon Maureen. I hope you have been well! It is not often that I get to address you directly. :) I never said it was the main reason. I said the question in the OP is partially answered by Jacob 2. Are you trying to goad me? But, even had I said it was the main reason, I have no idea why so many members say what they might say, if they say what you say they say. The answer to your question as to why have 33 wives? Because God commanded Joseph to do it. Simple as that. Rather than a mark, Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy is a testament to his prophetic call and to his greatness as one of God's elect. What made Joseph Smith special (and this is what makes anyone special, btw) is that he was willing to Hear and to Obey God's voice at all cost. Joseph paid a steep price to practice polygamy and I love the man for it. Joseph was humble. That is what made Joseph Smith great. And I want to add that if the world were full of Joseph's, then God's power would be poured out unrestrained. Regards, Finrock

This isn't exactly true. There is no doubt that early church members practiced a form of civil disobedience when they practiced polygamy while the Church still authorized it. "Polygamy was certainly declared illegal during the Utah-era anti-polygamy crusade, and was arguably illegal under the Illinois anti-bigamy statutes. This is hardly new information, and Church members and their critics knew it. Modern members of the Church generally miss the significance of this fact, however: the practice of polygamy was a clear case of civil disobedience. The decision to defy the [anti-polygamy laws] was a painful exception to an otherwise firm commitment to the rule of law and order. Significantly, however, in choosing to defy the law, the Latter-day Saints were actually following in an American tradition of civil disobedience. On various previous occasions, including the years before the Revolutionary War, Americans had found certain laws offensive to their fundamental values and had decided openly to violate them.…Even though declared constitutional, the law was still repugnant to all [the Saints’] values, and they were willing to face harassment, exile, or imprisonment rather than bow to its demands.[1] Elder James E. Talmage taught that members should obey the law, unless God commanded an exception: A question has many times been asked of the Church and of its individual members, to this effect: In the case of a conflict between the requirements made by the revealed word of God, and those imposed by the secular law, which of these authorities would the members of the Church be bound to obey?…Pending the overruling by Providence in favor of religious liberty, it is the duty of the saints to submit themselves to the laws of their country" (Source). Regards, Finrock

For some reason I was struck by the Spirit when I read this so I wanted to share: "Joseph displayed an astonishingly principled commitment to the doctrine [of plural marriage]. He had to overcome opposition from his brother Hyrum and the reluctance of some of his disciples. Reflecting years later on the conflicts and dangers brought by plural marriage, some church leaders were struck with the courage Joseph displayed in persisting with it. And when one recalls a poignant encounter like that between [counselor in the First Presidency] William Law and Joseph in early 1844, it is difficult not to agree. Law, putting his arms around the prophet’s neck, tearfully pleaded that he throw the entire business of plurality over. Joseph, also crying, replied that he could not, that God had commanded it, and he had no choice but to obey" (B. Carmon Hardy). Regards, Finrock

The idea comes from the Old Testament. Polygamy was practiced at various times anciently. The Book of Mormon provides the following regarding polygamy. Background: Some of the Nephites had begun to practice polygamy without authorization justifying it by referencing King Solomon. Jacob, a prophet, reprimanded those Nephites by reminding them that polygamy requires authorization from God. The question of why did God allow polygamy among early Mormons is partially answered by Jacob. God wanted to raise up seed unto Himself. "As non-Mormon church historian Ernst Benz wrote: 'Mormon polygamy...is tied to a strict patriarchal system of family order and demonstrates in the relationship of the husband to his individual wives all the ethical traits of a Christian, monogamous marriage. It is completely focused on bearing children and rearing them in the bosom of the family and the Mormon community. Actually, it exhibits a very great measure of selflessness, a willingness to sacrifice, and a sense of duty.'" I don't know of a simple way to answer your other questions so I would direct you to do some research and reading in order to get a more complete picture and understanding: Joseph Smith/Polygamy - FAIRMormon Regards Finrock

Eternal life is God's life. It is living the type of life that God the Eternal Father enjoys...whatever that may entail in totality. We only have the tiniest of glimpse. For instance, we know that God's "work and His glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." My notion of Eternal life equals God's life comes from below... It would only stand to reason if God's name is Eternal and Eternal punishment is God's punishment, then Eternal life must be God's life. You guys may have hashed this out already, but, immortality and eternal life are not the same thing. All who have been born on this earth will enjoy the gift and blessing of immortality which is to have our spirit to be inseparably reunited with a perfect body. Regards, Finrock

Another way that I have gained my testimony that has sustained me through all of my trials has been by practicing the principle of "doing to know the word". I love how Heber C. Kimball speaks to it: Heber C. Kimball then relates the story of Naaman the Assyrian who was asked to wash in the river Jordan to be healed of leporasy. Then he finishes: Regards, Finrock

Good Afternoon Theophan. I hope you are doing well! :) Its these small little impressions that I latched on to early in my faith journey. In fact, most of my experiences in the gospel have been the types of experiences you describe. Are they unique to Mormonism? Of course not! It is unique to the Spirit! That is a way that the Spirit speaks to us, through flashes of intelligence and insight. My testimony is primarily the sum of small "aha moments" accumulated over a period of many years. Regards, Finrock

I have never been shy in delving in to church history. On my mission was the first time I was seriously confronted with anti-Mormon material (my uncle use to hand me Chick tracts before my mission). In my first area on my mission I learned more about church history than I had in the years I attended church as a youth (some of my youth was spent inactive due to parents inactivity). Since then any time I have come across a new accusation about the Church I will research it and find out about it. There was a time several years ago where I thought to myself, "What if Joseph Smith truly was a charlatan?" or I would think, "What if he was just motivated by lust and power?" I had an experience on my mission where my companion and I were teaching a woman about Joseph Smith. I will always remember this visit because I experienced something that I had never experienced before and I have not experienced it in such a powerful way since then. But, as I began to talk to this woman about Joseph Smith's first vision, there was a beautiful calm assurance that just entered my body. I relayed the story of how Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and I could just tell that this woman was feeling the Spirit. And at that moment I knew that this woman felt the Spirit and I knew that she knew that this event occured. But I asked her anyways if she believes what I just said knowing her answer and she said "Yes". The sense of having a perfect understanding and a witness of this event was powerful and what made it so much more powerful was the fact that this same feeling of assurance was being shared at the same time with this woman whom we had just met. This experience was a fulfillment of the scripture in Doctrine and Covenants that reads: I have felt the Spirit too many times to go down the road of doubt. I have read the Book of Mormon more times than I can remember and I have repeatedly received spiritual confirmation from the Holy Spirit that the Book of Mormon is true. My testimony of this Church is based on multiple spiritual witnesses that I simply would be foolish and irrational to deny. My point in saying all of that is that even when I come across material that may cause me to question, all I have to do is think back on those powerful witnesses I have received and I am reminded of the fact that I am in the right Church, the only true Church of Jesus Christ here on this earth. Regards, Finrock

I get this part and I appreciate that this is how it is with people and so it doesn't have to be rational in order for them to "feel" a certain way. However, sooner or later, we have to deal with things as they truly are. Once you have their trust and attention and they are talking about it, your duty doesn't end there. You must now teach correct principles and help the individual to learn that faith is a choice and help them to learn how they can maintain their testimonies despite circumstance. Regards, Finrock

OKay, so you believe it is possible, in principle, for a person's testimony to actually be made weaker because the church was not completely upfront about its history? I have a hard time accepting this principle. It is this principle that I am asking you to explain. Not an individual's circumstances. Those are all good skills, qualities, and traits and I applaud you for having them. Regards, Finrock

This is my way of telling the reader that I may or may not accept that premise which is critical to their position, however, lets just ignore it for now and deal with this one question. I agree with all of this. I just don't see how it's relevant to what I was asking. My question doesn't have to be directed at any particular person. To me, this is not personal. I'm just dealing with the actual words that were typed and the ideas expressed. I'm dealing with the principle being expressed. I have my own thoughts and beliefs, true, but I am willing to be shown how it can be true that a person's testimony is actually made weaker because the church has not been fully upfront about it's history. I am inviting anyone who knows to educate me. Regards, Finrock

Good afternoon MarginofError. I hope you are having a good day! :) I see you quoting me, but I don't see you actually responding to my post. You seem to be talking about somebody else and about something else other than what I was asking. Regards, Finrock

Good afternoon Canuck Mormon. I hope you are doing good. :) How can this statement you have made even be true? You are saying that your wife's testimony is weaker because the church hasn't been fully up front with it's history. Suppose I accept as true, for the sake of argument, the idea that the church has not been fully up front with it's history. Will you please explain how it is true that what the church did or did not do was actually the cause, or is what made, your wife's testimony become weaker? Regards, Finrock

Good evening Eowyn. I hope you are doing well. Thank you for your post. What you say here is exactly what I am saying in the OP. I think you said it better though. Respectfully, Kim Mayfield

It has been claimed by the occasional member but mostly non-members, that in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints there is a lack of focus on Jesus on any given Sunday. I don't understand this statement. Some people say that we focus on things like the Word of Wisdom, or Baptism, or Gifts of the Spirit, etc., but we don't talk much about Jesus. I still don't understand the statement. Some people say that we talk about prophets and what they teach, particularly Joseph Smith, but we don't talk much about Jesus. I am still left confused by the statement. How can any person think that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a lack of focus on Jesus on any given Sunday? As I think about church and church services on Sundays, I can't think of a Sunday where the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was not the center and focus of EVERYTHING that we do. Everything that we teach leads back to Christ. When we teach about Baptism, we are teaching about Christ. When we teach about the Word of Wisdom, we are focusing on Jesus. Any time we encourage, uplift, and invite people to live and to keep the commandments of Jesus, we are helping them to focus on the Savior! Not to mention the direct and specific lessons on Jesus, on the atonement, on sacrifice, on keeping the commandments of God. If teaching the teachings of Jesus Christ and asking people to live the teachings of Jesus Christ is not focusing on Jesus, then I don't know what is. To say that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't focus on Jesus is a sign of someone who just doesn't know better or they are intentionally lying. Regards, Finrock

Hi Sourgirl. I hope you've been happy and well! :) Please don't be weirded out by the temple. I say that even though I too was a bit surprised when I first went through, but you don't have to be like me! One thing that is helpful is to remember that all of the things in the temple are symbolic. The symbols in the temple represent real things, but not necessarily in a literal way. The scriptures are full of the temple, as bluedreams pointed out. Read the scripture thoroughly, particularly the Book of Mormon, while you regularly and frequently attend the temple. Make it a goal in your life. Something that you and your new husband will strive to do for your whole marriage. I PROMISE YOU that you will be blessed (in very powerful ways) if you make temple attendance a regular part of your life. There is no other place quite like the temple where you can gain power and learn about your specific purpose in life and the grand purposes and designs that God has in store for you. Scipture and temple go hand in hand. I love the temple. I love that you are wanting to go back and I love that you have gone to the temple already and you plan on going back and getting sealed there. Sincerely, Finrock

Hi Dravin. I hope all is well with you. :) I can totally understand why you would think that this is what I am saying, but in fact I am not saying that at all (or at least that is not what I was intending to say). It is absurd to think that the truthfulness of the BoM is contingent upon me being a true disciple of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon professes to be a book that will bring you to Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon professes to contain the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I start with the axiom that the BoM is an instruction manual, so to speak, to becoming a true disciple of Jesus Christ. If this is true, then a person who desires to become a true disciple of Jesus Christ can expect to be able to attain this desire by following the instruction and applying and making real the principles of truth that are contained within the BoM. If someone becomes a true disciple of Jesus Christ because they applied the principles of truth the BoM contains, then this is powerful evidence that the BoM is true. The problem, as classylady pointed out, is how does one know that they are a true disciple? Or, what does it mean to be a true disciple? Well, this is where I believe we can look in the BoM to see what will be the fruits of those that are true discipes. One scripture off the top of my head is where Jesus says that the way you can know a true disciple is that they will have love for all of those around them. My point is that true discipleship will, by natural consequence of righteous living, result in the manifestation of God"s power and glory. Regards, Finrock

I want to be a testimony of the Book of Mormon. I want to be able to say to someone that if I am not a true disciple of Jesus Christ then the Book of Mormon is not true, and I want this statement to actually be true. Is such a thing possible? Is what I am saying nonsense? Is it boastful? Prideful? I see the Book of Mormon as a guide to becoming a true disciple of Jesus Christ. I believe that we can liken all aspects of the BoM scripture to our individual lives. When I read about Nephi receiving extraordinary power and knowledge like the ability to construct a ship without any knowledge before hand, I think to myself that this is amazing. But I don't just leave it there, I believe I also can experience such things. I believe God is no respector of persons. When I see the trials that Alma and the sons of Mosiah went through, I know that I'm no more or less special to the Lord. If they had to wade through such trials to gain exaltation and to exercise faith even when threatened with death, then why should I think to skate through life only casually living the gospel of Jesus Christ, while never really giving my all, like I promised? I see the brother of Jared and he saw the Lord Jesus Christ. If the brother of Jared, then why not Finrock? And if I can also see the Lord, then what must I do in order to return back in to the presence of the Lord? The Book of Mormon is this guide. It is the answer and it will lead us back in to the presence of the Father. I love the Book of Mormon. If we carefully read and study the BoM we can learn how to purge out all remnants of the traditions of our fathers and replace them with the traditions of our Heavenly Father. I believe that the BoM will literally draw us closer to the Savior than any other book on this earth. My final example is from 3 Nephi 7. This is speaking about Nephi: "18 And it came to pass that they were angry with him, even because he had greater power than they, for it were not possible that they could disbelieve his words, for so great was his faith on the Lord Jesus Christ that angels did minister unto him daily." When I read this, I ask myself, "How can I obtain this gift?" I want to be able to preach with such power that it is not possible that one could disbelieve my testimony of Jesus Christ and His gospel. I believe firmly that God does not want us to just intellectually know about such gifts, I believe He wants us all to obtain all good gifts from Him. He loves all of us and is willing to come as close to us as we are willing and able to stand. Heber C. Kimbal says something that has struck me and changed my way of thinking. He says, all truth is life, and life is light. As I feast upon the truths within the Book of Mormon I am filling myself with life. This is why the seed of faith begins to grow within us, because now the ground that was barren and had no life, is restored to life. And so we continue to feast upon the words of Christ. We treasure truths when we accept them and then apply them in our lives. So if we fill ourselves with truth, by treasuring truth, then we are filling ourselves with life and light. The Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the gospel, therefore by feasting upon truths within the BoM and treasuring them up within us, we will be lead to a fullness of truth, and life, and light. So, if I follow the guidance of the BoM and learn to actualize the truths that I learn in the BoM in my life, THEN could I say, and it would be true, that if I am not a disciple of Jesus Christ, then the Book of Mormon is not true. Regards, Finrock

Good evening Just_A_Guy. I hope you are well. :) The truth is that he actually answered in his very next post to you. This is clearly saying that you will receive your C&E at the end of your probation (if qualified) or receiving your C&E can, not must, can, also mean to have the day of probation advanced in this mortal life to receive the promise of eternal life. Regards, Finrock

Coincidentally, my family and I were just reading this chapter in 3 Nephi 16 two nights ago and I was specifically wondering if verse 10 is speaking about something that has already occurred from my perspective or does it speak to something that will occur? I can not fully explain this verse or this whole chapter, really. Regards, Finrock

Good afternoon Seminarysnoozer! I hope you are doing well. :) If a person receives personal revelation that they should strive to increase in knowledge, can that person be saved in the Celestial Kingdom of God if they do not strive to increase in knowledge and they do not repent? This question is a sincere question and I am not trying to set you up or anything of the sort. Regards, Finrock

Good morning ElectofGod. I hope you are doing well! :) I bet Ammon had an assurance and a knowledge by the Holy Ghost that the course of his life was acceptable to God. It is interesting to note that rather than become discouraged, as you mentioned, he had joy in this trial. I imagine that if Ammon did not have this assurance and knowledge, he would not have been filled with joy knowing that the king of Lamanites would likely kill him for losing the king's flocks. Regards, Finrock

Good Afternoon selek. I hope you're having a good day! :) You stated to ElectofGod, I can't think of any faithful Latter-day Saint that would disagree with this statement. But, you see, the way many of your posts come across to me, selek, is that you are misunderstanding people's posts or interpreting them with your own personal biases and because YOU BELIEVE the views are at odds with revealed truth (so often you come across as having set yourself up as the judge on these forums who gets to decide which posts adhere to revealed truth and which do not), then rather than decide to engage in a fruitful discussion and assume the best of people, you seemingly assume everyone who does not explain or believe the "revealed truths of the Gospel" like you do, well, then they are apostate, they are all of these horrible things and then you proceed to lay in to people with a vitriol that is simply incomprehensible to me. I just don't get it, selek. You could do everything you do without the bombastic vitriol. Respectfully, Finrock