Finrock

Good Morning james12. I hope you are doing well! :) The way I see it is this: If a leader asks you to testify, testify. We sustain them as leaders. We profess with our mouths that we believe that they have been called of God to their position of leadership. Whether by God's mouth or the mouth of His servants, it is the same. It doesn't much matter what we say if we have the Spirit with us. If the Spirit carries our words to the heart of man, then our words will have power. If a leader asks you to testify and you do, God will bless you for your obedience. It really comes down to the individual. We should all be ready to testify at a moments notice with power. How do we do this? By searching the scriptures, praying ernestly, and practicing the principles of truth EVERY DAY! If we fill ourselves with truth, we will be filled with light and we will be in a position to be an example to others regardless of circumstance. Regards, Finrock

Good afternoon ElectofGod. I hope you are doing well! :) I don't know if I can describe it right, but to me the temple ordinances are training us for the real thing. It is teaching us who we really and truly are and what we should really and truly be doing here on this earth. The things in the temple are symbolic representations of real things that need to be done. The ordinances by themselves, like baptism, doesn't save us but rather us receiving those ordinances saves us. The way we receive the ordinances is by putting in to practice the things that are symbolically represented in those ordinances. The true ordinances of the gospel are what we do in life each day when alone or when we interact with other people. Do we manifest God's power in all that we do and say? If we do, then the ordinances in the temple become real and not just symbolic representations. Regards, Finrock

Good morning skalenfehl. I hope you are doing well! :) Your post was meant for me, at least, thank you. Part of learning compassion for me has been recognizing and NOT minimizing how my actions have or can affect others. It is gaining an awareness of how others perceive me, not so as to allow that perception to decide who I am and what I do, but rather so I can see myself from another's perspective and therefore understand how they might feel about what I have done or what I have said. When I accuse others of doing this, that, or the other, I am being a hypocrite. Always. I am unable to see them for who they truly are when I accuse others. I truly am God's son. I am not of this world. All other people on this earth truly are God's children and they are not of this world. For me, this recognition has been helpful in having compassion. I should not be contending and finding fault with others. I should not judge, only invite others to come to Christ. We truly are all equal. I know God loves all of His children like the other. He is no respector of persons. Charity is patient, long-suffering, and is not easily provoked but charity also thinks no evil and that includes not thinking evil of others. I have begged for mercy from God and received it. How sinful and wrong it is for me to then turn around and accuse and judge others or not show them mercy! How can I expect to receive mercy from Him if I am unwilling to extend mercy to others? Regards, Finrock

There is no predefined method. Go with what the Spirit prompts you. I would tell you to proceed prayerfully and ask questions. Ask these questions to yourself, then ask God. If you ask in faith, with real intent, you will receive an answer. I know by experience. I am happy to know that you are investigating the Church. It is a wonderful organization. I have truly felt the love of God as I have tried to align my life more completely with the principles found in the Church. I have found my way to Jesus. I have felt my sins, my pains, my sorrows, wiped away so I am free of those burdens. I rely on the atonement and know that without God I am truly nothing. I am a sinful, weak man with an undying hope in a glorious future where I can sit with Adam, Enoch, Noah, and all the others who sit with the Savior at the right hand of the Father. My hope and faith causes me to strive every day to purge away darkness by trying to emulate the works of the Son, even Jesus Christ. This is why I love this Church. It is my honor and privilege to testify of this in the name of Jesus Christ. Respectfully, Finrock

I will also say this. I believe that one cannot have a testimony of Jesus Christ without having the spirit of prophecy. I also believe that once a person has a testimony of Jesus Christ, they need not wait for the Apostles to direct them to go out and testify and invite people to come to Christ and to repent and to be baptized. We should be anxiously engaged in doing good. We can learn and know for ourselves all of the truths of the gospel. In fact, I believe we can receive personal and private revelation about matters that perhaps the apostles have not received. But, I am never in a position to find fault with the Church supposing that I am more righteous and can therefore proceed to counsel and correct the apostles. Apostles can correct themselves. Apostles can tell other apostles that they aren't living up to their potential. The pattern I have seen is that God is no fool. He knows what goes on. He uses men and women on this earth to direct His work and allows them to stumble through it with weaknesses and all, but yet, somehow, God's work moves forward. Joseph Smith received many revelations before he ever spoke about them or revealed them to the Church. We are counseled to not reveal certain truths until people are ready to receive it else it might strangle their faith and destroy their confidence. Regards, Finrock

I know I do not fully understand what is being said. To clarify, my comment wasn't meant to accuse anyone of apostasizing. Lets call the paragraph below X: When I read what I read, it feels like to me like there is a hint of suggesting that perhaps the Apostles aren't living up to what they ought to be doing and that perhaps there is another person or persons we can look to as the head of the Church on earth. I was more making clear that if the logical conclusion to this Smithite Mormonism line of reasoning equates to me ultimately finding fault with the Apostles or any notion that would have me look to someone other than the President of the Church as the head of the Church of Christ on earth, then I will not go there. Right now I just feel like what is being said is not being said, but rather it is being implied and I am uncomfortable with the implication. In sincerity, if what is being said does NOT equal X (see above), then until I know better I am open to understanding what is being said. I want to know all truth and if it is true then I will accept it. Sincerely, Finrock

I looked up the word familiar and I think the second definition given in Merriam-Webster fits the context of the scripture: "one who is often seen and well known; especially: an intimate associate" How can I treat everyone as one who is often seen and well known? How can I treat everyone as an intimate associate? What does practicing these principles entail in my day to day interactions? Regards, Finrock

I am not sure I have yet to fully understand what the point of the Smithite Mormon line of reasoning is or what is its logical conclusion. I will say this, however. I will not jump on to a bandwagon that is advocating that the apostles are somehow not fulfilling their callings and that they need to be corrected somehow by the members of the Church. Also, I reject any notion that would claim that any person can exercise priesthood authority independent of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or independent of the presiding authority on the earth. But to keep it simple here, the president of the Church has the keys of the priesthood. If we exercise priesthood it is because the President of the Church has authorized it. Article of Faith: "We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.” We have no priesthood authority in and of ourselves and it is not our place to pretend to be able to counsel and correct the apostles. I will follow and stay with the President of the Church until death because the Spirit has testified to me that I should and that is where my faith rests. Regards, Finrock

One of my weaknesses is that I do not have enough compassion for others. I am too selfish and self-centered; frequently worried about what I want or supposedly need. I came across a passage in Jacob that I felt addresses my issue. Jacob 2:17 17 Think of your brethren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all and free with your substance, that they may be rich like unto you. I wondered to myself what does it really mean to "[t]hink of your bretheren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all..."? So, I pose this question here. What say you? Sincerely, Finrock

I don't agree with the behavior you describe of shutting the man out, particularly when he is showing forth the fruits of repentance. Even though I am paranoid about it at times, I allow my children to go and do things with others. What I do is to make sure I always counsel with my children before they go. I remind them that their body is their stewardship and noone should be touching them in their private parts. I tell them that they should never be afraid to speak out if they feel uncomfortable, etc. Then, I also always follow up after they have been away or at someone's home and ask them if anyone did or said anything weird or uncomfortable. I guess a big difference between what I do and what you are describing is that I don't discriminate. I don't care if my kids are going to the home of the people next door or to the bishop's home. I treat everybody in an equally paranoid fashion. Regards, Finrock

I've done some really abominable things. Do I think people need to protect their children from me? Absolutely not. Do I understand that people would want to keep their children away from me if they knew the abominable things I've done? Absolutely. That doesn't mean they are justified in how they may or may not treat me, but I would certainly understand. I happen to be, perhaps too much so, a bit paranoid about my own children. I know from personal experience that just because you know someone doesn't mean that you can always trust them. Being a victim to child abuse from family members I tend to never really trust others with my children and I always follow up with my kids to make sure nobody mistreated them. Regards, Finrock

Good Afternoon Seminarysnoozer! I hope you have been doing well. :) The scripture reads that God's work and glory is to bring to pass immortality AND eternal life. It is not immortality and/or eternal life. You can't divorce eternal life from this statement because then you are teaching your own doctrine and not the doctrine found in scripture. God does not desire for us anything less than perfection. He actually wants all of His children to accept the fullness of the gospel and He is saddened by the fact that some of His children will not receive the fullness of the gospel because He wants ALL of His children to have a fullness of joy. Regards, Finrock

The problem is not Islam, the problem is people. People commit sin. People are prideful. People twist truth to fit their personal desires. People fall victim to temptation. People want power. People want sex. People want stuff. People want to gratify their carnal desires. Every passage in the Qur'an starts out proclaiming that God is compassionate and merciful. That God is merciful and compassionate is a central belief in Islam. Islam teaches people to take care of the poor. Islam teaches that obedience to the one true God is our main objective in life. Islam teaches tolerance towards those who believe differently. This is just a sample of the good things that Islam teaches. Many Americans don't really know what Islam teaches because they haven't taken the time to learn about it. I have felt the Spirit while reading the Qur'an. There are passages in the Qur'an that are most certainly from God. All truth has been revealed to man by God, and in this case, even the truth that was revealed to Muhammed. There are passages in the Qur'an that I don't agree with theologically but they aren't malicious and evil. People have committed astrocities in the name of Jesus, all the while justifying their base, carnal, and evil acts because of their religious writtings that they have used only so as to bring about their own purposes and not the purposes of Christianity. People have also committed astrocities in the name of Islam, all the while justifying their base, carnal, and evil acts because of their religious writings that they have used only so as to bring about their own purposes and not the purposes of Islam. Regards, Finrock

Speakzeasy, Thanks for taking the time to lay out your position. As I mentioned earlier, I read the document you provided. I'll share some of my thoughts. I could see the issue of men who received authority but then felt that they were an authority to themselves. Pride and ego caused the succession crisis. Each person who sought to claim they were the chosen prophet outside of the way set up by God through His actual prophet did so ultimately out of a desire for power and/or position or to gratify their lustful desires. The Rigdonites and Strangites were definately offshoots of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The succession crisis showed me why God desires so much a peole who are firm and steadfast in the gospel. It made me think of my own instability and how I wish I could be some one the Lord could depend on no matter what. I am grateful to Brigham Young. I am grateful to the faith of most of the apostles during that time even though some fell away. I am also grateful to the faith of most of the members of the Church at that time. Surely the members had to exercise great faith when you consider that most members did not have access to all of the doctrine and information that the apostles had access to. The Church as a whole had learned to trust the apostles because the apostles had proven themselves trustworthy since soon after the Church was restored. I loved the account of when James Strang attempted to gain support to his claims of being a prophet by not presenting his claims and proofs to the general church assembly but rather by presenting it at a conference in Florence Michigan. At this conference the presiding elder, Crandall Dunn, would have none of Strang's claims and pointed out how a letter Strang was using as proof for his claims was fraudulent. Imagine the consequences had Crandall Dunn not remained close to the Spirit and loyal to God's Church? God bless Crandall Dunn! I also thought it was wonderful how God established a clear method during this time of crisis for us to know who the next prophet is in the future while at the same time pruning from the Church the imposters and those who were seeking for power and position rather than God's glory. Since the first crisis, there has not been a repeat. Because the senior apostle automatically becomes the new president of the Church, the Church and its members have been kept safe from the weaknesses and foibles of men. Regards, Finrock

Thank you for the clarification. I have been reading the PDF you produced. Thank you. I had not read that before and I learned a lot. When im at my computer Ill share some more thoughts on that. But, for now, can you give me an example of what you mean. When I apply what you define what you say on myself I dont see myself placing more value. Perhaps this is because I am ignorant and cant see. Regards, Finrock

Just to clarify, I dont have an opinion on your view because I dont understand your view yet. Meaning, Im trying to get at the core of what you are claiming. If you think I am trying to trap you with my questions I promise you that I am not. Regards, Finrock

Good Afternoon Speakzeasy. Welcome to the forums! :) Curious. Why do you make answering my question contingent upon me answering your question? But, okay. From what I understand about Strangite and Rigdonite Mormonism is that they are/were off-shoots of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Is that correct? How does prisonchaplain's comment relate? Regards, Finrock

I just wanted to add this quote. Emphasis is original unless otherwise noted: Regards, Finrock

Good afternoon ElectofGod. I hope you're having a good day! :) Thanks for providing me the information on that article. I was not aware of it and I had not read it before I posted my comments. My thoughts were revealed to me by the Spirit. It is interesting to see how the Spirit reveals the same truth today as He did in 1980. I couldn't find the talk in a conference setting but I did find it in a New Era article: How to Get Personal Revelation. Regards, Finrock

Question: What is a "Smithite Mormon"? Regards, Finrock

Good Afternoon LittleWyvern. I hope you are doing well! :) We, the people of the United States, established a government to secure and to protect our privacy and freedoms. How ironic that you are proposing methods that we can use to protect ourselves from the violation of our rights by the government that was established to protect those rights. Regards, Finrock

Good Afternoon bytor2112. I hope you have been doing well! :) For what its worth, I agree. Regards, Finrock

I'm an IT professional. I've done lots of business with ward members over the years fixing computers and what not. I appreciate ward members who approach me and make it clear that they are not looking for handouts (they say such things as "I don't want the Mormon discount"). There are those who expect work to be done for free. I always let people know up front that I charge a fee for my services but I don't bother with contracts and such. I decide on a case by case basis whether I do a job for charity or not. Over the years I really haven't had any issues. Sucks to have someone promise to do a job but then not do it. Hopefully in your case, Eowyn, it'll get done soon enough. Regards, Finrock

Good afternoon ElectofGod. I hope you are well today! :) How to communicate this to others? All people are able to experience the blessings that Nephi experienced. All people are able to experience the blessings that Alma, Ammon, and Aaron experienced. All people are able to have the heavens open to them and to have this witness by the Holy Ghost. There is a notion in the Church that seems so prevalent everywhere I go. This notion is that these special blessings and experiences that we read about in the scriptures are just reserved for the prophets or these "special" people or that the miracles we read about are meant for another time and another people. What people don't seem to understand is that we are ALL "special". If we but dedicate ourselves and follow the examples given in the scriptures with exactness. If we patiently and diligently begin to serve the Lord and to seek after His wisdom with all of our heart, might, mind, and strength then we will have access to the same blessings as the prophets. If we pray without ceasing and endure all things that God requires of us, then we can have the same blessings as the brother of Jared. Regards, Finrock

I have never really had any deal breakers. For instance, if there is infidelity, I will judge it at the time it occurs. I don't have any pre-judgements. In the past I had expectations. But, I have tried very hard to accept my wife as she is. My only real desire (it is not really an expectation) for my wife is for her to be committed to living the gospel of Jesus Christ and that we can progress in the gospel together. I know that we all slip up. If my wife makes a mistake, I am not bothered as long as she has the hope of the gospel in her heart. We all need to repent and so I understand that both her and I will have weaknesses and issues that we will need to work through. I firmly believe that as long as we are both committed to living the gospel, we can work through any difficulty and I need not be bothered by weaknesses and sins committed by my spouse. Our goal is to support each other to overcome the weaknesses we each have. Regards, Finrock