Finrock

Good afternoon skippy740. I hope you are having a good day! :) Don't get too hung up on the bearing children example of exercising power in the priesthood. Remember, there is priesthood authority and priesthood power. Women do not have priesthood authority or keys, but they certainly exercise priesthood power. Further, women are authorized to administer in the gospel through the priesthood authority and keys that men have. It is through and by priesthood authority that a woman is called as a Relief Society president, for instance. Therefore, when a women is authorized to be a Relief Society president (her authority coming from the authority and keys of the Bishop) and she magnifies her calling in righteousness, she will be exercising priesthood power. What is priesthood? Guide to the Scriptures states priesthood is "the authority and power that God gives to man to act in all things for the salvation of man". We could say that the priesthood is really God's power to bless others. In that sense, we don't need special permission to bless (When I say "bless" here I do not mean to say "hands on head" blessing, but helping, assisting, bringing about good in other people's lives) others, generally speaking. It is also true that God has designated that certain ordinances be done under the direction of priesthood authority and keys, such as baptism. However, anyone can exercise power in the priesthood by serving and loving others, for instance. Now, in regards to bearing children. Consider this: If every woman was to be obedient to God's commandments, then every woman would be authorized through the priesthood (being sealed) to bear children before they exercised this power. Whether a woman is a member of the Church or not and she is a good mother, she is exercising priesthood power (or God's power) when she is acting in righteousness to bless the lives of her children. The key is to recognize the difference between authority and power. We need priesthood authority to perform certain gospel ordinances but we do not need priesthood authority to exercise priesthood power. Further, just because we may have authority, it does not necessarily mean we are exercising priesthood power, because power in the priesthood is inseparably connected with the principles of righteousness and can only be exercised in righteousness. What I am saying is not an attempt to make men and women the same. Regards, Finrock

The sisters of the Church exercise power in the priesthood. They do not have the authority and keys of the priesthood. All things done in the Church are done through the authority of the priesthood. Hence, any sister who magnifies her calling, under the proper direction of priesthood authority, will be doing so with priesthood power. Consider this scripture for a moment from D&C 84:19-20: "19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God. "20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest." Sisters do not have priesthood keys or authority. Sisters, however, are authorized to administer in the gospel through the priesthood keys that men hold. And, more importantly, I believe, it is through the ordinances of the priesthood that the power of the priesthood (or godliness) is made bare. What are ordinances? Obviously we have the ordinances of baptism, giving the gift of the Holy Ghost, Sacrament, etc. Women do not have authority to perform these particular ordinances. But, these are not all of the ordinances of the gospel. According to the Guide to the Scriptures ordinances are, "acred rites and ceremonies. Ordinances consist of acts that have spiritual meanings. Ordinances can also mean God’s laws and statutes." I submit that through the priesthood authority of men, women are able to perform ordinances of the gospel and thus they are able to exercise priesthood power. Further, I submit that just as there are ordinances that only men can perform, there are also some ordinances that only a woman can perform. A prime example of a priesthood ordinance that can be performed by women but not by men is to bear children. Another example of priesthood ordinance: The righteous acts of a mother, acting within her calling as a mother, constitutes a priesthood ordinance and thus a manifestation of priesthood power. So, in my view, the real big difference is that women do not have priesthood authority but they do have priesthood power. When authorized and righteous, women can act within the priesthood, this action constituting an ordinance of the priesthood, hence women will be acting with priesthood power. Further, there are priesthood ordinances that women can perform (bearing children) that men cannot, and vice versa. Regards, Finrock

Good Morning selek. I've been busy so haven't had a chance to respond, but I hope you had a good weekend. selek, I don't mean to say that I am superior to you as a person. I have flaws, many that are great. I wanted to point out that a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water (Moroni 7). Meaning, we can't help people feel the Spirit if we are bickering, arguing, name calling, etc. To me, your posts here in this thread crossed the line from being direct/blunt yet truthful, to bullying and abusive (even if truthful). I feel obligated to speak out against bullying/abusive behavior. However, I've read many of your posts in the past and like Windseeker, I enjoy your ability to keep on topic (and keep others on topic). I can tell that you have a firm grasp of logic and you are very knowledgeable. I also love your testimony of the gospel. Thank you! Respectfully, Finrock

Good Afternoon German_LDS! I'm sorry you are having care problems but I hope you are well otherwise! :) Just a thought but depending on your vehicle, buying and installing a new transmission may not be as bad as you think. In some cases you can pick up a refurbished or used transmission for $300 - $1000. And installation often runs between $400 - $800. Of course these prices are rough and will vary widely. But, if you can get the transmission replaced for around $1800, that may be a better option than buying another car. You may even save more money if you are able to do the labor yourself or have a friend help. Regards, Finrock

I am socially immature. I have a hard time understanding boundaries at times. I want to be helpful to people but my immaturity and my inability to see boundaries at times prevents me from doing so effectively. I don't always know what is appropriate involvement. And for me it isn't just knowing what is appropriate involvement in helping others but it is also knowing and understanding what boundaries are appropriate for myself. I keep thinking of the counsel for us to be diligent but that we shouldn't run faster than we have strength. Of course, you are right. Listening to the Spirit is what is right. It is a hard thing to do, however, because I am sinful. Regards, Finrock

Good Morning pam. Thank you for the quotes! :) The quoted statement caught my attention and I wonder what does it mean to "appropriately involve ourselves in helping others?" What is appropriate involvement? Regards, Finrock

Good morning selek. I hope you are well! :) What is the purpose of your post? Who are you trying to help? In what way are you providing a workable solution? selek, in case you haven't noticed, the fruits of your posts here has been contention, name calling, fault finding, and bickering. Respectfully, Finrock

These are only ten bucks and it will turn any TV in to a large screen TV. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns your TV HD too. Lot cheaper than getting a new TV. https://www.buyzoomies.com/Order.aspx Regards, Finrock

This is to clarify where I am coming from since the topic of the OP has changed to a debate about Denver Snuffer. I don't know what the current debate or controversy with Denver Snuffer is really about. I entered the debate speaking to the subject of the thread. I have never heard of Denver before this thread. I have never read his material unless I have read it in this thread by reading someone's post here. I have a current temple recommend. I attend the temple regularly. If I were to have my calling and election made sure, I would not divulge it. Not unless I was commanded to do so by the voice of God or by the voice of His servants. If I were to have my calling and election made sure it would be because I confessed all my sins to God and when required, to His servants here on earth. It is a fact for me that if God grants me Eternal Life, it will be because I obeyed my bishop and all of my priesthood leaders here on earth. I love the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I love everything about it. I know it is literally the Church of Jesus Christ. It is His Church and He is at the helm. President Monson is His mouthpiece here on this earth. President Monson has all priesthood keys required for the salvation of mankind and these keys also rest with the Quorum of the Twelve. Mosiah 5:7-9 " 7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters. 8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives. 9 And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ." (Emphasis mine) In my opinion, King Benjamin is telling me that although I will have many names or titles, there is no other name given that will save me except for the name of Christ. I believe King Benjamin is saying that I will be given the name of Christ and when I am given the name of Christ, I should take upon me that name and be obedient to God unto the end of my life. I believe King Benjamin is telling me that if I take upon me the name of Christ, when it is given, and remain faithful to the end, that I will be found on the right hand of God. The reason that I will be found on the right hand of God will be because I will know the name by which God calls me and God will call me by the name of Christ. Respectfully, Finrock

The baptismal prayer is not new. D&C 20:77 "...and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son..." Wouldn't that be easy if we could simply take upon us that title and we then become the Son? This is obviously false and that is not what I have stated as my opinion. The literal meaning of our covenant to take upon us the name of the Son, is that we take upon us the title of the Son. Do we magically become the Son when we take on this title? Of course not! At baptism we covenant that we are willing to take upon us the name of the Son. It doesn't mean that we will be worthy of that title, only that we are willing to do it. There is obviously still some work for us to do after baptism. When I was on my mission Elder Condy from the Quorum of the Seventy taught at one of my zone conferences. He drew a picture of a triangle and said that this triangle represents the principles of the gospel. He said our goal in life is to conform our lives as perfectly as possible to the principles of the gospel. He further stated that although the principles are perfect, we are not and neither are our earthly conditions perfect. Sometimes in life we may think we are Circles or Squares or Whatever. We may even have the form of a Circle or a Square or Whatever. Baptism is kinda like realizing that we aren't Squares or Circles, but that we are Triangles. Once we recognize that we are actually Triangles and not whatever shape we were before, then we need to start shaping ourselves that our form can match who we really are (Triangles). We will never be able to conform and shape ourselves to be perfect Triangles alone, but because the First Triangle provided a way for all Triangles, all Triangles can become perfect Triangles as well by following in the path of the First Triangle. From Elder Oaks: "Willingness to take upon us the name of Jesus Christ can therefore be understood as willingness to take upon us the authority of Jesus Christ. According to this meaning, by partaking of the sacrament we witness our willingness to participate in the sacred ordinances of the temple and to receive the highest blessings available through the name and by the authority of the Savior when he chooses to confer them upon us. Another future event we may anticipate when we witness our willingness to take that sacred name upon us concerns our relationship to our Savior and the incomprehensible blessings available to those who will be called by his name at the last day. King Benjamin told his people, “There shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.” (Mosiah 3:17; see also 2 Ne. 31:21.) Peter proclaimed “the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth” to the leaders of the Jews, declaring that “there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:10, 12; see also D&C 18:21.) The scriptures proclaim that the Savior’s atoning sacrifice was for those who “believe on his name.” Alma taught that Jesus Christ, the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, would come “to take away the sins of the world, yea, the sins of every man who steadfastly believeth on his name.” (Alma 5:48; Alma 9:27; Alma 11:40; Hel. 14:2.) In the words of King Benjamin, “Whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ.” (Mosiah 5:9.) Thus, those who exercise faith in the sacred name of Jesus Christ and repent of their sins and enter into his covenant and keep his commandments (see Mosiah 5:8) can lay claim on the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Those who do so will be called by his name at the l last day... Those who are found worthy to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ at the last day are described in the great revelations recorded in the ninety-third and seventy-sixth sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. Here the Savior revealed to Joseph Smith that in due time, if we keep the commandments of God, we can receive the “fulness” of the Father. (D&C 93:19–20.) Here the Savior bears record that “all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the [Father], and are the church of the Firstborn.” (D&C 93:22.) “They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things. … Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods” who “shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.” (D&C 76:55, 58, 62.) “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3; see also D&C 88:4–5.) This is the ultimate significance of taking upon us the name of Jesus Christ (Emphasis mine)." I haven't read the whole talk yet through and through, but there is some good stuff in there and I intend to. Here is the link: Taking Upon Us the Name of Jesus Christ Regards, Finrock

Good morning Anddenex! I hope you are happy and well. :) But what if what is being taught isn't new doctrine? What if the problem is not that the doctrine is new or false or that it isn't being openly taught by the President of the Church? What if the doctrine is being openly taught by the President of the Church, but people aren't recognizing it? If a person recognizes a truth being taught by the Prophet, are they not authorize to teach it? Should a person stop teaching revealed doctrine because others are blind to it? I do not mean to cause anyone offense with my questions. Regards, Finrock

Some ideas I had after reading this verse in Luke. "Unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required" (Luke 12:48). The Savior Jesus Christ was given much. He was given His Godhood prior to Him coming to the earth. I believe the Father gave so much to His Son because so much was required of the Son. If Luke 12:48 applies to the Savior, then it certainly applies to us. God has given each of us talents. Some a little, some a lot. To those who have a little, a little is required of them. But if those who have a little remain faithful to what they have, they will be given all that the Father has, because the Savior Jesus Christ was perfectly faithful to what was given Him and fulfilled His role as a sacrifice for us so that we could also go through our trial, our test, within the sphere God has placed us, to work out our salvation, trusting in God and in His Son, just as the Son trusted in His Father and relying on His strength to become exalted. I believe our trial to become exalted will be based on our talents, on what God has given us. He will require of us only that which is just to require of us, and no more. He will also perfectly apply His mercy as we work to build our talents. To me the parallels are clear. We are to emulate the Savior. Our trial cannot be what the Savior's trial was. Jesus was the only one worthy to receive all that the Father had prior to mortality and Jesus was the only one, therefore, capable of becoming a sacrifice for all. But, I believe we must also become Jesus. Quite literally, those who have been baptized have covenanted to take upon them the name of the Son. I believe we are to seek out our talents and discover our weaknesses and begin to work out our exaltation just as the Savior demonstrated with His perfect and sinless example. Our trial will not be like the Savior's, but because of the atonement, if we endure our trial faithfully to the end, we will receive the same reward as the Savior because we were faithful to that which God has given us. I believe because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, our individual sacrifice which God will require of us, will be sufficient to procure us the blessings of exaltation and eternal life. Regards, Finrock

Good afternoon Greetings. I hope you are having a good day! :) I know suffering through trials is difficult but I also know God uses trials to refine and bless us. Be faithful no matter what! Check out the Preach My Gospel manual. There is a section about learning to recognize the Spirit. I invite you to read the whole section, but I have quoted a part of it that has counsel from President Hinckley: "In answer to the question, “How do we recognize the promptings of the Spirit?” President Gordon B. Hinckley read Moroni 7:13, 16–17 and then said: “That’s the test, when all is said and done. Does it persuade one to do good, to rise, to stand tall, to do the right thing, to be kind, to be generous? Then it is of the Spirit of God. … “If it invites to do good, it is of God. If it inviteth to do evil, it is of the devil. … And if you are doing the right thing and if you are living the right way, you will know in your heart what the Spirit is saying to you. “You recognize the promptings of the Spirit by the fruits of the Spirit—that which enlighteneth, that which buildeth up, that which is positive and affirmative and uplifting and leads us to better thoughts and better words and better deeds is of the Spirit of God” (Teachings of Gordon B. Hinckley, 260–61)." I would also invite you to read the scriptures that President Hinckley references from Moroni (I have provided a link to the scripture above). Regards, Finrock

Hi ElectofGod. I hope you are doing well! :) I believe having your C&E and having charity are connected. I don't think you can have one without the other. I believe charity can be used to test ourselves and by which others can test us. I agree with your post. In the past I used to come to the forums and based on my own words I was here to primarily to take part in good intellectual discussions and to share and to learn. I realize now that I can't be that passive. The battle against evil is real and any forum, whether online or otherwise, the covenants I have made apply and I am charged with testifying and helping to bringing people to the Savior, wherever that might be. My point is that I agree that we are all where we are and I like the message from last conference where Elder Holland (I believe it was Holland) spoke about us being steadfast and faithful to the truth that we have and that we know. That is our responsibility and if we remain faithful to where we are at, God has promised that He will add to that and by and by all who remain faithful and diligent will enjoy the fruits of eternal life. From Elder Holland: "Observation number one regarding this account is that when facing the challenge of faith, the father asserts his strength first and only then acknowledges his limitation. His initial declaration is affirmative and without hesitation: “Lord, I believe.” I would say to all who wish for more faith, remember this man! In moments of fear or doubt or troubling times, hold the ground you have already won, even if that ground is limited. In the growth we all have to experience in mortality, the spiritual equivalent of this boy’s affliction or this parent’s desperation is going to come to all of us. When those moments come and issues surface, the resolution of which is not immediately forthcoming, hold fast to what you already know and stand strong until additional knowledge comes. It was of this very incident, this specific miracle, that Jesus said, “If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.”6 The size of your faith or the degree of your knowledge is not the issue—it is the integrity you demonstrate toward the faith you do have and the truth you already know" (Source; Emphasis mine) Regards, Finrock

Connected to my other thought I also wanted to add that as disciples of Jesus Christ the reason why we should testify or share experiences is so as to draw people to the Savior. If we draw people to ourselves then we are being prideful. If we are sharing experiences in order to gratify our own vain ambitions, then we are being prideful and we are doing what is wrong. Once we have saved ourselves by faith and by obedience to the Savior, then we ought to be going about testifying to all that the Savior Jesus Christ can save them too! This can entail us testifying of us seeing the Savior but it will be so as to invite others to come to Him. I have not had a personal visit from Christ. But I know this is a true principle. We ought not be afraid of seeking after this gift and speaking about it because ultimately it leads to us becoming all that the Father would have us be. Regards, Finrock

Good morning mikbone! I hope you had a great weekend. :) The danger that I can see is that when one has powerful spiritual experiences they may be tempted and Satan certainly will be working to temp a person to believe that they are special in the sense that God respects them above others. I believe that is why we are counselled in scripture that when it is all said and done, if we don't have charity we are nothing. The antedote to pride and the danger of being steered off course is the pure love of God. Regards, Finrock

Good afternoon Praetorian_Brow. I hope you are doing well! :) Is your statement true? Is it relative? Regards, Finrock

I wanted to also add and clarify for Anddenex in particular, that I am not even saying that I disagree with your interpretation of that scripture. I guess I'll just say it outright that I think you are missing a plain truth that doesn't take away from what you are saying, but rather it adds further understanding. I was thinking also that another plain truth is found in our baptismal covenant which has essential bearing on what I am speaking about. When I was baptized God commanded me, and I agreed to it, to take upon me the name of Jesus Christ. I ask myself, "What is the most plain and simple interpretation of that command?" To me it plainly means that I take upon me the name Jesus Christ. I am Jesus Christ. Now, before anyone gets offended, I am not proclaiming to be some reincarnated Jesus. That is obviously false. But, if I take upon me this new name, isn't my name now Jesus? King Benjamin taught this. Obviously when we consider the true meaning and the true intention of what it means to take upon us the name of Christ, we must recognize that to take upon us this name, should not be done lightly. Because if we are going to be Christ, then we better act like Him. Otherwise, we are hypocrites and are like salt that has lost its savour. We are in reality saying that we are Christ, in name and in deed, when we have forsaken our sins, have come unto Christ, have called on His name, obey His voice, and keep His commandments. I also want to emphasize the role of the atonement. In all of my speech it is obvious to me that none of what I am speaking of is even possible except it be through the merits and mercy of Jesus Christ. It is His atonement, His divine sacrifice, that is the enabling power behind all that we do. I believe that because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, and only because of it, the way that we interpret the oneness of the members of the Godhead, is exactly the same oneness that can be applied to all of those who become one with Christ and thus with the Father through obedience to God's commandments. Regards, Finrock

Good morning Anddenex. Thanks for the reponse. I hope you're having a good day! :) To me, the plain interpretation of being one with Christ, even as Christ is one with the Father, means we become Christ and we become a part of the Godhead. I believe that the same interpretation of becoming one with the Father that applies to the Son, because of the Son, also applies to us. To me it is plain, but I respect your understanding of that scripture and other than what I have already stated, I will not argue against your understanding. Regards, Finrock

Good morning Eowyn. I hope your morning has started out well!:) To me, the ideas are glorious and beautiful but I can understand why you and others might feel that they are blasphemous because it somehow appears that I am making myself equal with God. I know that without God I am nothing. Without God we are just objects in space. But, there is a God and we are His children and that is what makes all of the difference. What makes the difference to me is that it is not a carnal desire to be equal with God because it is God who desires that I be equal with Him. He has commanded that I be equal with Him (Be perfect, even as God is perfect). He wants me to have His power in order for me to do good (to bring about His work and His glory). He is willing to give me (and I believe all those who desire it) everything that He has as soon as I am ready to receive it. As soon as I am ready to receive it. I am not God the Father. I am not Jesus Christ. However, when we abide in Christ, we abide in the Godhead. We receive God's power. We become a part of the glorious work of bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Here is the key: When we are acting within our authority, under God's direction, by His power, and for His glory, it is as if God Himself were acting. D&C 1:38 "What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same." Further, Jesus has said: "I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was crucified for the sins of the world, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am one in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one" (D&C 35:2). We can be one with God, just as Christ was one with the Father. If we are one with Christ, are we not then Christ? Are we not then a part of the Godhead? It seems to be that the plain and precious truth of these scriptures testify that this is true. I believe it. Having said what I've said, if you believe my words are blasphemous then I will cease to discuss it so as to respect the forum rules. Regards, Finrock

So, both ideas are blasphemous to you? Respectfully, Finrock

Good Morning Eowyn! I hope you are having a good day. What is blasphemous? Or, what in this thread has inspired you to comment that it feels like it is Blasphemy Week at LDS.net? Is it the idea that we are a part of the Godhead or the idea that we can be Saviors? Regards, Finrock

Good Afternoon Anddenex. I hope you're having a good day! I was considering the fact that when we become true disciples of Jesus Christ, then our calling is to act as a Savior. Not only is our heritage divine but at that point, so is our goal and our power. Is it right to suppose that we can or ought to completely remove the element of divinity from the work of salvation performed by those who are answering the call of their God? I don't think so. I believe that we can, in a truly divine sense, become Saviors unto mankind. In fact, I believe it is necessary for us to do this in order to inherit celestial glory. Obviously and always, our work is enabled and possible because of the atonement of Jesus Christ but that is no different than Jesus Christ being enabled to perform His work by way of the Father. Regards, Finrock

I don't believe for a second that Jesus committed any sin. He did not. He was perfectly obedient. However, while a mortal, He was not yet completely perfected in every way. I have to believe that even Jesus had to pass through His trial to be made perfect. It seems I've drawn on this quote a few times lately, but it is relavant to this question as well. President Snow said: "You and I cannot be made perfect except through suffering: Jesus could not [see Hebrews 2:10]." President Snow says without equivocation that Jesus could not be made perfect except through suffering. This must mean that there was a time when Jesus was not perfect. How can you be "made" perfect through a process if you are already perfect? If I believe President Snow's words, then it is nonsense to believe that Jesus was perfect before He went through sufferring. President Young said: "All intelligent beings who are crowned with crowns of glory, immortality, and eternal lives must pass through every ordeal appointed for intelligent beings to pass through, to gain their glory and exaltation." "You all know that the Saints must be made pure, to enter into the celestial kingdom. It is recorded that Jesus was made perfect through suffering [see Hebrews 5:8–9]. Why should we imagine for one moment that we can be prepared to enter into the kingdom of rest with him and the Father, without passing through similar ordeals?" (Emphasis added). Respectfully, Finrock

Good afternoon rayhale! I hope you've been doing well. :) Suffering is for everyone. If you haven't suffered yet then you will. Suffering can be caused by personal sin, other's sin, or circumstance. The idea of sufferring, in my view, is only weakly associated with the prodigal son story. From President Snow: "You and I cannot be made perfect except through suffering: Jesus could not [see Hebrews 2:10]. In His prayer and agony in the Garden of Gethsemane, He foreshadowed the purifying process necessary in the lives of those whose ambition prompts them to secure the glory of a celestial kingdom. None should try to escape by resorting to any compromising measures. There is no other way in which the Saints can make spiritual improvement and be prepared for an inheritance in the celestial kingdom than through tribulation. It is the process by which knowledge is increased and peace will ultimately be established universally. It [has] been said that if all our surroundings were peaceful and prosperous now, we would become indifferent. It would be a condition that would be all that would be desired by a good many natures; they would not stretch out after the things of eternity." I believe President Snow. Regards, Finrock