mikbone

For what it is worth. The Hinckley response that you quoted is of questionable value. Source: Richard Ostling in his TIME Magazine, PBS NewsHour with Jim Lehrer interview 1997, asked President Hinckley Question: God the Father was once a man as we were. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing. Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are? Answer: I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it. I haven’t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don’t know. I don’t know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don’t know a lot about it and I don’t know that others know a lot about it. Drawing Nearer to the Lord President Gordon B. Hinckley Nov 1997 Ensign conference issue “The media have been kind and generous to us. This past year of pioneer celebrations has resulted in very extensive, favorable press coverage. There have been a few things we wish might have been different. I personally have been much quoted, and in a few instances misquoted and misunderstood. I think that’s to be expected. None of you need worry because you read something that was incompletely reported. You need not worry that I do not understand some matters of doctrine. I think I understand them thoroughly, and it is unfortunate that the reporting may not make this clear. I hope you will never look to the public press as the authority on the doctrines of the Church.”

Yes

If you had written, in a temporary sense instead of an eternal sense I would have agreed with you. But in an eternal sense, those of us who do inherit the highest level of the celestial kingdom are whole and sin free. Not lame.

The KFD has not been voted on by common consent so no it is not in the cannon. But it was Joseph Smiths final general conference talk. It was recorded in six separate accounts: Sources: Joseph Smith diary (Willard Richards), Samuel W. Richards record, Thomas Bullock report, Wilford Woodruff journal, William Clayton report, and the George Laub record. Some of these reports were recollections while other records were notes taken at the event. Oh, how I wish we had a complete recording of the event! And the copies do agree from what I have studied. April 7, 1844 Quote from Jeffery R. Holland - todays afternoon session. "Joseph Smith has taught me more of God's love, of Christ's divinity and of priesthood power (in this world); than any other Prophet of whom I have read, known, or heard - in a lifetime of seeking." Why any LDS would dismiss a conference talk from Joseph Smith is beyond my understanding.

Nah, 1) I assume that you are excluding Jesus Christ in the above statement. Because you have already defined Him and His Father as sin free and perfect. 2) We are not lame. We are healthy and strong. I have yet to **** myself and my potential is unlimited. This mortal life is a fleeting moment (albeit a crucial test). And if we pass this test we have the ability via the atonement to become sin free and perfect. I think that at times we mis-understand the difference between repentance, forgiveness, the atonement and absolution. For example in the legal field there is the concept of a pardon vs. expungement. In a pardon, a person is forgiven for the crime and does not have to pay the penalty. When an expungement is granted, the person whose record is expunged can treat the event as if it never occurred. When we follow the steps of repentance we are forgiven. Via the atonement we can essentially obtain expungement of our sinful record. Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. A million years from now if you have been able to obtain your calling and election and inherit eternal life you can also claim that you are sin free. That you never sinned. That you are perfect.

I disagree. A crutch helps the lame to walk. A ladder allows the healthy to elevate themselves to a location that they could not achieve otherwise. I believe that you have the potential to be just like God is.

lol, true. But I don't think the plan of salvation is a crutch. I think it as a ladder.

I read it differently. Joseph is speaking as if he is Jehovah. Thank you. This explains much. I bought into the Plan of Salvation long ago. Hook, Line, & Sinker.

Actually the first part talks about Jehovah following in the path of his Father. Then it states that we must follow the same path. Palms 82:6 teaches that we are gods. D&C 132:29 teaches that Abraham has already entered into his exaltation and sits upon his throne. So there appears to be multiple levels of godhood. Do you believe the first portion of the Lorenzo Snow couplet? As man is God once was? And if so how do you interpret it?

Moses 4: 1-2 is a curious interchange. Lucifer wants to be the 'savior' without the personal struggle but still receive the honor. Jehovah volunteers to become the Savior and I believe that He had an idea what this calling entailed. Notice how Jehovah offers to give all the honor that is obtained via this position back to Father. But here is the thing, Jehovah is not a vector that simply transfers Glory to the Father. Jehovah has earned honor and glory. And He has it in spades. What would have happened if Jesus would have backed out? Would we still honor him the same?

I will honor your position. Yet I cannot recant mine. I salute you.

The website is a legit site. It is very well documented. And is the simplest manner to view Joseph Smiths Sermons. It is of note that these recording were done by separate people on lectures separated by almost a year. Do you think the Holy Ghost will be an un-embodied spirit eternally? D&C 93:33-34

D&C 122 7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good. 8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he? You can hit the option from the LDS.org website to remove footnotes. Took me a while to figure this out. The above council that the Savior gave to Joseph Smith is significant for a few reasons. 1) The Savior explains that these painful experiences will give Joseph experience and be for his Good. 2) The Savior refers to his own atonement in explaining to Joseph that He understands the difficulties that Joseph was experiencing. 3) To me Christ is explaining that He personally gained experience from the Atonement. Prior to the atonement Christ could not have made this statement.

We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple and first principles of the gospel, to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another, and that God himself; the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I had the trump of a arch angel, I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever; what did Jesus say? (mark it elder Rigdon; ) Jesus said, as the Father hat power in himself, even so hath the Son power; to do what? why what the Father did, that answer is obvious; in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again.---- If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible; the scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together, to refute it. Here then is eternal life, to know the only wise and true God. April 7, 1844 - "The King Follett Discourse", Joseph Smith Jr. as recorded in the Times and Seasons Minutes The argument here made by the Prophet is very much strengthened by the following passage: "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he [the Father] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (St. John 5:19) - Note by Elder B. H. Roberts, Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, p.346 See Also John 10: 17-18 I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before; it is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said. When you climb a ladder, you must begin at the bottom and go on until you learn the last principle; it will be a great while before you have learned the last. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it is a great thing to learn salvation beyond the grave. I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of any thing that is not contained in the Bible, and I think there are so many wise men here, who would put me to death for treason; so I shall turn commentator to-day. April 7, 1844 - "King Follett Discourse", Joseph Smith Jr. as recorded in Times and Seasons Minutes

Would you at least concede that Christ now has a greater investment in your success?

Is the Holy Ghost as perfect as the Father? Sermon delivered at Nauvoo temple grounds on Sunday August 27, 1843 Franklin D. Richards "Scriptural Items" Holy Ghost in Probationary State Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. Joseph Smith, June 16 1844, as recorded in the George Laub Journal But the holy ghost is yet a Spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body. as the Savior did or as god did or the gods before them took bodies for the Saviour Says the work that my father did do i also & those are the works he took himself a body & then laid down his life that he might take it up again. Revelations 3:21

D&C 122:7-8 Lorenzo Snow's Couplet John 5:19 Joseph Smith's multiple sermons in 1844 The temple narrative

I do not wish to get into a contentious argument with you. I respect your beliefs. I agree with you that Jehovah (pre-mortal Christ) was full of mercy, truth, and knowledge. Yet his atonement changed him in a way that we may never understand. His love for us increased significantly. The act in the Garden of Gethsemane and upon the cross likely not only left physical scars upon his body but also significant spiritual changes. I know that these doctrines are not commonly discussed, nor easily found within scripture. But Joseph Smith in my mind believes as much. He loves you more than you can know.

I respectfully disagree. When talking about God, one has to differentiate between God the Father, Jehovah / Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Jehovah did learn and grow during his mortal ministry. The atonement changed him. If you are arguing that Elohim is Perfect and un-changeable I could agree with you.

Patriarchal blessings, Fordination, Children 1 Cor 10:13 1 Ne 3:7 All of the above convince me that God has singular intention in all of our lives.

I have hated peeps till this year. We made Peep S'mores and they were Amazing. I mean who doesn't like roasted marshmallows? And with a caramelized candied rind... With Chocolate!?!

Anyone else have difficulties watching conference at their Stake Center? We sang hymns for 30-40 minutes, then watched the rest of the steaming content with multiple interruptions. I'm wondering if this is a common occurrence or if we just need a new computer / AV guy.

God in the OT is Jehovah (pre-mortal, unembodied spirit) God in the NT is the Mortal Jesus Christ (mostly, in the Gospels) God in the BoM & D&C are written from the viewpoint of a Resurrected perfect Jesus Chist. (Nephi writes as if He realizes that the success of Jesus's life/atonement is foreordained.) It is a vast difference in the perspective in the mind of God. Mortal life and the Atonement had a significant effect upon the personality of our Savior.

How many times have you been in church and a teacher ask for a volunteer for an opening or closing prayer and experienced an uncomfortable silence. Happens all the time for me. Have any groups complained that the spouses of general authorities are not allowed to sit on the stand with them at general conference?

They won? They probably need to go re-read the rules of the game. If 'they' don't change their game plan they are probably gonna lose big.