ryanh

I agree. HF want's us to study it out in our minds, and not simply ask Him without any additional effort on our part.HOWEVER . . . I've learned from painful experience that we need to make a marriage decision without getting our own desires too involved. Sometimes we can receive an affirmative answer that matches our desire, simply because HF is ok with us following our own desire, not because it is His will or what is best for us. Case in point - the lost manuscript pages.

I agree with missingsomething. DO NOT MARRY until you are sure. You can always put the marriage date off to take some pressure off the situation and take your time. It doesn't mean you can't resume moving forward and get married. However, once you get married, going back is a HUGE ordeal. I would strongly suggest waiting until you are sure. If you have doubts now, when difficulties come (as they surely will) in marriage, you will already be in a disadvantaged position. Marriage is not to be entered into for pity sake. I commend you for not wanting to hurt your fiancée, but your choice about whom to marry is about YOU, not HER. Don’t go through with it just to avoid pain. That is a path to greater pain. I think that those of us that are in or have been in difficult marriages could help out more if you were to let us know a little bit more about why you feel uneasy. We could help you sort out whether it's just the standard feelings of not being ready for marriage (nobody is truly ready anyway), or if there are some warning signs that we wish we had seen when in your position. Feel free to send me a PM if you don't want to air that stuff publically, and I'd be glad to see if I can help.

Your posts re what you wife did while in AZ are not lost on me. Very compelling story you have, and one I’m glad I have not had to live through. My point is not too different from what you are saying – it’s just on the flip side of the coin – looking at the same ‘problem’ from different points of view. As everyone else is ‘chopped liver’, there is little chance that we are hurt by their actions to the degree that we can be hurt by spouses or other family members. When we heard of the Gov of SC having an affair, were we personally pained? Not likely. But if our spouse does the same . . . Whether it’s easier to forgive the greater pain or a lesser one is a deeply personal and individualized experience. Clearly whether or not HF chooses to intervene will also greatly impact how difficult each situation may be for us to deal with. I have read the experiences of some others who describe differing facets of infidelity being the most painful part. For some, the lost faith in the spouse is the primary issue. For others, it might be the effect on the children. Yet others still, it may be the fact that the third person is/was a best friend. Such traumas are deeply personal and therefore the nature of the impact varies from wounded person to wounded person. Perhaps I have a fundamental misunderstanding of how close mdprideplayer is to this ‘friend’. Still, something nags that there is more to the story that originally posted.

Two thoughts: 1) I have observed that there are times that with prayer, HF can give us great help and lift the anger/hurt we feel towards another. What I have experienced though is that we are often left to our own to work through these matters and find in us the strength and resources, and to learn how to forgive. Yes, my fretting, Frowning child, I could cross The room to you More easily. But I’ve already Learned to walk, So I make you Come to me. Let go now— There! You see? Oh, remember This simple lesson, Child, And when In later years You cry out With tight fists And tears— “Oh, help me, God—please.”— Just listen And you’ll hear A silent voice: “I would, child, I would. But it’s you, Not I, Who needs to try Godhood.” (Carol Lynn Pearson, Beginnings, Provo: Trilogy Arts, 1967, p. 18.) As presented by Elder Packer in a 1975 Fireside 2) When I first read your post a few days back, what surprised me was that your post described difficulties in forgiving a 'friend', yet no mention of difficulties forgiving your husband. It seems to me that the greater hurt would have come from your husband. Typically (but not always), our greatest pains come from those that mean the most to us, or are the closest to us. I could be way off base, but I can't seem to shake the thought that I keep returning to: that anger towards your husband is being transferred to the friend. After all, it is much easier to deal with anger placed on a scapegoat rather than upon the person we have to continue living next to. I have found myself doing this at times when my wife has done something with her parents that caused strive between myself and my in-laws. It's a lot easier for me to go on living with my wife when (subconsciously) my anger about the situation is directed towards someone I don't have to interact with on a daily basis. The real problem resided with my wife, but for natural reasons, I was reluctant to acknowledge that fact. I also find it very interesting you wrote "who is being part of the problem" not 'who was part of the problem'. Is this just a typo, or do the words you chose actually reflect how you are viewing the situation? If you had truly forgiven your husband (or perhaps you know you have not, but are choosing to work on your feelings towards the friend first?), then isn't the whole issue dead and in the past, not a current ongoing situation? I know there are some that will suggest simply trying to tell yourself you forgive, or practice not thinking about the whole issue. But it seems to me, in the situations where HF chooses not to intervene, but rather allows us to grapple with the issue ourselves, this is attempting to put the cart before the horse. For me, forgiveness is a process that includes understanding and defining the situation as a first step. Fully recognizing and pondering upon our feelings is not a sin in my mind – it only becomes a sin when we chose to dwell on them and NOT let them go when we have gone through the process and are capable of letting them go. (As is also a sin when we purposefully choose to not attempt to engage the process of forgiving when we know we should. Is there a sin in having sexual desires? Of course not! Many a general conference talk has pointed out that our interest in members of the opposite sex is a God created facet of our lives. The sin lies in entertaining those desires [mentally or physically] in inappropriate ways. Likewise it is not a sin to feel hurt and anger when offended. That is also God given facet of our lives. It leads us to feel compassion, causes us to grow, and forces us to struggle with forgiveness. Having the feelings is not the sin. Choosing to hold onto them is. That's the way I think anyway.) As the author of Forgiving the Unforgivable, Beverly Flanigan wrote as an example of this idea: To forgive someone, you will need to know what you are forgiving. To forgive a person for cutting your finger off when she has actually severed your arm at the shoulder is useless. In other words, when you forgive someone for injuring you, you should know what the injury is and what it really means for you. In the naming phase, you construct the meaning of the wound. You admit you are harmed; you explore the dimensions of the injury, and you talk to other people to validate your feelings and impressions. You also identify the meaning of the injury in terms of its duration, controllability, consequences, and to some lesser extent, its cause. Once these objectives are met, you are ready to move on to the next phase of forgiving because you now understand what you are attempting to forgive. I hope I’m not too far off base or misguided in providing the above. I wish you the best in your journey to find peace for yourself.

Did you check your sent email history to confirm whether or not it was reality or a dream? I.e. did you really get up and email the bishop, or was that part of a nightmare.

Yep! What’s so sad about the interpretation given is that behaviors that may be perfectly acceptable to 99.99% of couples could be called abuse in the .01% just because the spouse is “too sensitive”. I think most men can understand “I’ve got a headache tonight”. We can live with it even if disappointing. But, there are some men for which such a rejection, even on a single basis, can be overwhelmingly painful. I think most people can understand that the pathology resides in that man in such cases. Yet, given the interpretation presented by Foreverafter, the wife in that otherwise benign situation is guilty of abuse!

Oh man do I feel for you. My mother is the only close person I have lost, and I can't imagine how hard it must be to loose a spouse. Always willing to listen if you want someone to talk to. May I offer a word of advice? As long as this current episode has been going on, and the fact that it is starting to impact your sleep, I would urge you to seek out help. Don't let this become a downward spiral that entraps you.

Wouldn't be the first time, probably not the last either. Sorry. No! Not you! The mother/wife is acting codependent with her denial and enabling IMO. I see that I wasn't laying down in a way that would be picked up correctly. Sorry again

All the books/sites advice given on how to love are great IMO. (Did I miss it, or was the 5 Love Languages and Marriagebuilders.com left out - two great ones). Given the dynamics you two are experiencing though, I would suggest something a little 'deeper'. Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch has been very helpful for me to understand these deeper dynamics that occur in an intimate relationship. The author is not LDS, and some of the language and frank discussions of intimacy may offend some (it's not done in any sort of titillating sort of manner - just very frank) but it is a worthwhile read to anyone in the midst of the struggle that is working to make heads or tails of what is really going on. BTW, David Schnarch would argue that you are actually on the path to breaking through to greater intimacy (emotional and physical) than you have ever had before if the situation handled right. That your currently experiencing this conflict is evidence you are on the right path to growth (ie, not just remaining stagnant).

Seems very likely. Here's a passage from a book about anger. Thought it might be appropriate.

I strongly disagree. Such codependent behavior serves no ones best interest. It does not serve the interest of templegoers who are in the temple at the same time as him, the boyscouts he works with, or even his wife who may be at risk of violent acts, or heaven forbid a serious STD. The mother/wife in this situation is already aware of the accusation, has had a chance to address it, and it is time to protect others even if she and the man in question won't acknowledge his problem.While I can understand the empathy and concern for the wife, the situation is much bigger than her and any potentially maladaptive paradigms she might have to keep up appearances.

I'm not so sure I'd agree with your statement that he 'holds' the priesthood. Not frowned upon? Assuredly they are, but if they have not fully come to light, then there is nothing you can do. But, you only called the Bishop today, right? He has to work to earn a living, and has lots on his plate, so please be patient in letting him get back to you. You indicated you didn't save evidence the first time. What about this time? The behaviors you describe are very typical. The defensiveness, the changing stories (that one about the Bishop is quite laughable!!! silly), the attacking the messenger (best defense is an offense), etc all indicate you are spot on. I interact with a number of people whose spouses have ADD. You would be surprised how much of the time when the husband has ADD there are severe porn addictions, and until the wife obtains irrefutable evidence from the computer, the stream of lies and attacks are never-ending. Unfortunately, your father can't get help until he acknowledges the fact and quits trying to hide it. Wait and see what the Bishop says, and if not, take your concerns to the Stake President. Contacting each parent would be a mess to avoid IMO. You could get caught up in that in ways you don't want to be.

There's no need to try to convince me of your position. I don't disagree It simply is a right answer to a question different than the one I saw being asked.

That would explain why artists and/or record labels are motivated to put out such songs, but doesn't not explain why the songs become popular. I don't think that is it. There are plenty of grunge message/title songs that are put out by not-so-famous talent.

Because ambivalence is a natural part of many (most according to David Schnarch) relationships. I felt strong ambivalence towards quite a few missionary companions, and again towards my wife. A song like Three Days Grace's can be cathartic to those who experience these conflicting feelings and don't understand them, or are pained by them. The stronger the ambivalence, the more a person can identify with the song. The lyrics beyond just the title line are: "I hate everything about you. Why do I love you?"

Good point LM - your post cuts right to the core of the issue. It was unfair of your daughter to tell you something and ask you to keep it a secret. God does not work in secrecy and darkness. Anyone that tries to put me in that position doesn't gain my favor. If it were me, I would ignore her request. Why did she tell you something that has to be kept a secret? If she didn't want him to know, why would she tell anyone? I think the son in law deserves a heads-up to be able to brace himself emotionally. Also, I'm a little confused. There are 4 granddaughters. 2 are obviously by your son in law. Are all 4? Why on earth would the judge allow a motion by the bf to restrict the kids to the city they are in unless they were his kids, and your daughter was threatening to take them away from him? Very unfortunate circumstances.

While I was in the MTC, one of the Apostles addressed us (can’t recall for sure who at that moment, would have to dig through an old journal) and spoke about ensuring that sins are completely confessed. He told a story of when he was a boy riding a bicycle down a gravel road. I can’t recall the circumstances that lead to the crash, buy he ended up going over the handlebars and landing on the gravel road. When he landed, his thumb was pulled backwards, and the skin between the thumb and forefinger was ripped open. When at the emergency room, he found that the cleaning of the wound was VERY painful, and he resisted. The Dr. gave him a choice – we can scrub out all of the dirt and fine gravel particles now while the wound is open, or we can stop with what we have done so far, and stitch it up. However, the Dr. warned him that were they to stop cleaning now and stitch it up, the likelihood was very high that either an infection would set in, or one of the pieces of foreign matter would become an irritant. If that happened, they would have to perform surgery to cut the hand open, cut out the problems, thereby restarting the entire healing process. The Dr. asked him if he wanted to go through more pain right now, once, or risk going thorough greater pains, scarring, and tissue damage later on. He chose to have the full cleaning. And he likened that to our repentance processes, and how important it is to fully disclose everything upfront when the issue is still open and can be fully cleaned. It can be quite painful to reopen the issue later a second time. If you have doubt that you fully confessed your sin, it will haunt you again and again in life. I know, I've been there. It's no fun to reopen old sins in an attempt to scrub them clean the second time. But it was necessary to feel comfortable and whole. Know that your Bishop loves you. He is there to help you, not make you feel bad for what you have done, or to feel bad that there might be more to tell him about that you didn’t tell him the first time. He can help you feel better. Obviously, I would urge you to see him again. You are obviously a very strong and courageous young woman. It took a lot to see him that first time. I’m confident you are strong enough to do it again.

Given the challenges you face, I would suggest looking at mindfullness techniques.

In reading between the lines, it seems that you not only ‘didn’t contact him for 13 years’ but worked hard to avoid the situation entirely. Such a reaction to something so painful is entirely understandable. But, having recently run into him on a couple occasions, coupled with the passage of time healing the sting of the situation 13 years ago, probably has allowed you to begin processing some of the feelings that you haven’t before processed. That’s natural, and even to be expected. It’s not wrong or bad, it just is. I’m of the persuasion that a better way to deal with such feelings is to recognize them and processes them, not attempt to pretend they are not there and stuff them. Stuffing them just means they will be there at a later day when they are reawakened from being forgotten - just like what has happened recently. As beefche suggested, writing them out is helpful. There is something helpful in getting out thoughts out in writing. Some people even go so far as to have a ceremony where the writings are buried. The mental imagery of putting them to rest can help you feel like you can let them go. They still exist on the buried paper, so they are not 'lost', but you don't have to keep them in active memory. What also helps is to be compassionate to yourself. You did the best you knew how to do at 21, right? I'm confident you chose what you thought at the time was in your best interest. You should be too. Understanding this makes considering 'might have beens' a moot point.

Self-confrontation and getting past our own inaccurate self perceptions is tough work! Glad you found an appropriate counselor to help you through it. Keep at it!!! Even if it can't save this marriage, it will be good for you over the rest of your life. I've got to imagine that coming to the realizations that you have has been a pretty hard hit. Sounds like you might be feeling pretty appreciative of your wife’s patience and tolerance over the years – it might help if you make her aware of those thoughts/feelings. As I offered in another thread in this forum, I have an electronic copy of a chapter from a marriage book that describes how to identify and confront what we are doing wrong in order to improve ourselves. If you are interested, send me a pm and I'll provide the link.

AMEN! I would add to that ADHD, anxiety, and any other significant mental illness. Unfortunately we typically won’t be able to spot ADHD as easily as bi-polar or uni-polar depression, anxiety, or schizophrenia. Quality thoughts and ideas Chet, thanks for taking the time to type them out.

So, were you looking for advice, or simply venting? If I were to give advice, it would be much along the lines of LM's post. Just go reread that. :) In fact, if you want to read a chapter (about 30 pages in a paperback) that explains how to go about doing this, send me a pm and I'll send you a link. Have you considered mental illness as a possibility? Both depression and/or ADHD could account for a lot of the struggles you describe.

Geesh, Vort is right. Crazy. Semper, thank you for having the honesty and integrity to give us an update. Even with the anonymity, that took some guts to expose yourself like that. Life is a process like that for some of us, especially us stereotypical 'dumb' men. Thanks for showing us the process you are going though. You will find that there is a very wide variety in quality of counselors out there. A person really does need to interview a few of them to find the right fit and knowledge. What helped me was the book The Five Love Languages. If you and your wife still have an interest in meeting each other’s needs, that book will help you learn how to do it. I’m still left wondering about the initial interaction though. Why would you be so blunt as to only label it as an “affair”, but not concurrently identify it as non-physical? She understands now what happened, right? And why would she threaten to leave “forever” in front of an older child who understood what was being talked about? Was she really intending to abandon them? Have patience! It will take time to rebuild the trust and emotional connections. Good luck!

Northern Davis County has been crazy wet. I was talking to a friend in Provo and they haven't had nearly as much cloud cover and rain as north of SLC. I'm loving it!!! Just like W. OR where I grew up! My tomatos are wanting the hot weather, but all the rest of the garden is really liking it. I recall one or two cool storms most Junes over the last 8 years I've been in UT, but this has been something I hardly recall ever happening in the winter, let along June!

A couple thoughts come to mind. The adversary would seek your material success in order to draw you away and entrap. There is no trial of faith if we were all to be punished immediately, or rewarded immediately for choosing what is right. As Ecclesiastes observed in a vision, "time and chance happens to them all". It's important to remember that correlation does not equal causation. Your success and comfort is not necessarily a result of the direction you are choosing.