Sali

What things stay on your records? I thought disfellowshipment and excommunication were removed from your records once taken care of? It seems as if it does stay on your records if it's a factor in what callings you can hold. Does leadership at Ward/Stake level have access to this, or is it just kept in the archives at SLC for the General Leadership of the Church?

How about reading it for yourself and then using personal revelation and discernment to form an opinion?

For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people,  and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good,   therefore they were ripening for destruction,  for the laws had become corrupted.  Yea, and this was not all; they were a stiffnecked people, insomuch that they could not be governed by the law nor justice,  save it were to their destruction. - Helaman 5:2-3

I'm going to be candid here (and I say this as a recently-released 11-year-old leader with five years of tenure in two different wards, and now just called to be a cubmaster):
 
This water-gun nonsense just confirms what I've suspected for a long time:  These overpaid bozos at National have no freakin' idea what it's actually like to work with boys.
 
I'm tired.
 
I'm tired of overpriced uniforms.  I'm tired of a program in a constant state of flux, requiring the purchase of a never-ending array of updated "training materials".  I'm tired of roundtable meetings where they spend fifteen minutes berating us because our Friends of Scouting contributions weren't higher--knowing very well that the guy delivering the sermon makes three times my annual salary.  I'm tired of my local Council Office, which has taken three weeks to figure out if the materials for the 2015 Cub Scout program are or aren't actually available for purchase yet.  I'm tired of whatever committee of boneheads decided that the creepy new computer-generated cub scout character that's all over the new books, is something the boys would think is "cool".  I'm tired of sub-par websites and support services, and byzantine advancement tracking/procurement protocols.  I'm tired of staff at National who can barely speak English but are assigned to "customer service".  I'm tired of needing multiple layers of permission and approvals and "tour permits" to drive my boys to a Cabela's five miles away because it's technically out of our district or council or whatever.
 
I do what I do because I respect the Church and want to help it move forward--and frankly, I like the kids I work with, which makes it all easier.  But, as for the BSA? 
 
As far as I'm concerned--the gays can have it.
 
Oh--and there will be water pistols at our next pack meeting; national nincompoops bedarned.

I admit, I'm probably about as much as a feminist as most modern women even though I don't readily consider myself one.
 
Also admitting, the range of feminism is a broad one. 
 
But, generally, me and self-proclaimed feminists don't get along.
 
I'm strongly pro-life--feminists despise me for it. I do believe in a difference of the genders--one again, feminists despise me for it.
 
Now, there is a movement of pro-life feminists out there, but they aren't as loud as the pro-choice ones.

I can't believe I was missed!
Yeah... I was... not well mentally. It was pretty evident at times I had a... I donno I'd just snap. I was in my own little world, I'd go on about things and it didn't do well for anyone. I needed to step back, (move across the province) and really get my life under control, as it was just...so unhappy.
But I'm all better now, finally gotten things under control, so felt I ought to come back and contribute a little again.
 
I went to one of the meetinghouses here and its too big, and still with this 9:30 am stuff! lol
I'd go every Sunday if it was, like at 11:30 lol

I'm going to differ slightly, for a couple of reasons.
 
First, as a general rule, I agree with the above.  However, there may be some exceptions applying in your case, for (IMHO) the following reasons:
 
1)  I draw a distinction between WOW-prohibited substances that are inherently chemically or socially harmful (alcohol and illegal drugs), versus WOW-prohibited substances that I see as socially/chemically innocuous, except insofar as my partaking of them would be a violation of an individual covenant that I have entered (but that a non-Mormon has not).  The former, I would not serve or allow in my home under any circumstances.  The latter, depending on circumstances--I might.
 
2)  In your case--did your parents regularly drink tea/coffee while you were growing up?  If so, and you're the one who made the lifestyle change by converting to Mormonism--well, you know what your parents' morning routine has been for decades; and you're also their host(ess?).  You're not drinking the coffee, and your parents won't be breaking any covenants of their own by partaking of the stuff--so would it kill you to keep a box of tea bags, a sack of beans, and a Mr. Coffee on-hand, just as a matter of good hospitality?
 
Also, on a semi-related tangent:
 
3)  If your parents are the kind of people who are going to get on your case about your religion for not serving coffee, I can almost guarantee they'll also get on your case about your religion if you do serve coffee.  So, whichever way you wind up going about whether to have coffee/tea on hand, don't think that your religion isn't going to come up at some point in this visit.  It will, and I'd suggest you think about how you'll handle that conversation when (not "if") it comes up.
 
Good luck!

As many are aware I had a near fatal heart attack on June 20 as I posted in an earlier thread. On August 12th I underwent triple bypass surgery and am now in recovery. I have quite a journey still left in this adventure, but the surgery was very successful and I am told I may never have any more heart related issues.
 
The Lord reached down from the heavens and changed me and I am SO grateful for this rich blessing that has redirected me or awakened me to life again and also for the opportunity to continue this mortal probation and the opportunity to become better, love deeper, be a better husband, father and friend and a life more consecrated to serving Heavenly Father.
 
Please take advantage of every day.......God Bless you all!
 
Brother Gainer

To me this boils down to the underlying feminist message of something akin to. I can wear whatever I what and do whatever I want and if you have issues with it it is your problem.
 
Men are generally more visually oriented, while women are more emotionally oriented.  It is why in general men have issues with pornography and women have issues with "romance novels".
 
We are responsible to some degree with how our actions influence and affect others.  Group psychology is very interesting, sometimes all it takes is one person in a group to influence for good or evil the rest of the individuals.  To teach a child otherwise is to ignore social mores and is an extremely self-centered un-Christlike attitude.
 
When I drive my car into sketchy neighborhoods, I make darn sure I have a clean car, i.e. no laptops, CDs, valuables, etc. are visible, it is a plain 'ol boring car.  I do not want my car to become interesting for some would-be thief.  Now if I had a laptop on the dash and someone stole it, it would be ludicrous to claim that I caused them to do it.  However, do I bare some responsibility . . . you better believe it; I'll think to myself (dang it) I should have put it away so it wouldn't have been a temptation for someone and so they would have moved on.  Sometimes, even if you have a clean car it still gets broken into . . .the idea is to lower the risk.
 
A female and in a sketchy part of town, wearing a low-cut dress, mini-skirt etc, is doing herself no favors in presenting a low target of opportunity.  I personally think these ultra-feminists are really doing women a disservice by not recognizing the actual reality of the situation, rather they want to make the world to conform to their perceived reality.  All I can say is . . . good luck!
 
So yes both men and women have responsibilities, it is shared.  Women certainly should not be dressed provocatively and men shouldn't be thinking certain thoughts.

What a rough situation . . . . I have no idea what you are going through.  It is horrible when families for one reason or another are broken up.  I wish that we could learn the lessons of life without having to go through such trials.
 
Unfortunately, many times we can only learn the lessons of life by going through such horrible circumstances.  Life is very hard and every individual must go through their own Gethsemane so to speak.  The power of the Atonement helps us endure those circumstances better.  
 
For some individuals it is a divorce with multiple kids, for others it is Stage 4 cancer with multiple kids, for others it is the death of a child, the loss of a job, for some it is disability.  Sometimes it is multiple situations at once or at different times in our life.  Sometimes we might feel like Job.
 
This much I do know, if we are humble and willing to listen to God, He will hear us, He will give us relief, He will answer our prayers.  Sometimes the answer may not be what we want, but the answer will be for our best interest.  We must learn to trust in Him completely with our whole soul saying that we will be willing to do whatever He asks of us, if He will only show us the way.  He will then send to us ministering angels to lead and guide us when He knows we need it the most.
 
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2002/04/for-thy-good?lang=eng&query=pains+and+sufferings
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2011/04/the-atonement-covers-all-pain?lang=eng&query=pains+and+sufferings#5-PD50028768_000_1050

It is never a happy thing when someone is excommunicated, but in this case I feel it is for the best.  
 
I am sympathetic for Kate's cause, and even agree with a few points, but her methods repulse me.  I hate to use stereotypes, but she is such a lawyer!!  Talking about twisting words, using the press and popularity as weapons.  It's extremely unChristlike.    I do wish her the best still though, and hope her heart will be softened.

I just had a talk with my daughter because of some sisters, not brothers, but sisters were shoving the "peter priesthood" view of women in the church.  This greatly disturbs me because all my girls tell me that it's usually not the men, it's the women that perpertrate this thinking.  Quite frankly, besides being sealed in the temple and enduring to the end, men need to be ordained to the priesthood to attain the highest level of celestial glory.  Women need only to be born.  I kind-of read something into this.
 
In any case, this whole "exponential" growth in excommunications is just plain silly unless someone can come up with numbers to support that position.  Otherwise, it's two people who have an agenda, who are polarized in their thinking, and have been invited to a disiplinary hearing.  I don't know much about Kate Kelly but I have listened to John Dehlin in interviews and podcasts and he is a wolf in sheeps clothing.
 
But I've been on the excommunicated side and I say from my own and other's experience, if they are excommunicated, they are in for some of the darkest, most challenging days of their lives because they will be buffeted by the advisary in ways they will never expect.  They will have left only two roads to go: setting aside their pride, getting some humility and walk towards the light of Christ, or continue down the path they are on and drown in the darkness.  There is no middle ground. 
 
So before they or anyone begins to blame the church for making their lives difficult, or creating difficulty for them or their families, they ought to take responsibility and accept what is to come because they got into this knowing that the outcome would end up looking like it looks now. 
 
Their crying foul is unimpressive.  Their letting the world know only makes transparent their contempt and proves their agenda and disingenuousness.

I read that same quote, too.
 
I really feel for that person.  I feel for Kate Kelly and for John Dehlin.  The events of the coming weeks (and months?) for these two will be difficult for me emotionally.  I sympathize with many of Kate's ideas, though not her methods.  Or at least, not the methods of Ordain Women.  I don't know enough about John Dehlin to say the same for him.
 
I experience a lot of cognitive dissonance as a Mormon Feminist.  I empathize with those women who have difficulties in the Church, perceived or otherwise.  I don't currently support female ordination, though if current policies (or doctrines) are changed, I definitely won't be sorry to see it happen.  I love the prophet(s) and do my best to follow their teachings.  But I also feel that there is a lot of room for change in policies, practices, and administrative areas within the Church.  I have a strong testimony of the Gospel, but I also have strong personal opinions and feelings.  Sometimes it's hard to reconcile those with each other.  And so I wage war in my head.
I trust the Church to be discreet with regard to disciplinary actions.  They have strict no-comment policies in place for high-profile (and other) cases like this.  John Dehlin and Kate Kelly each contact media outlets, it appears, and they're welcome to do so.  I feel that doing so, to an extent, is digging their own graves, however.

Skalen Gets it.
 
The gospel of Jesus Christ, or the Doctrine of Christ includes baptism by water, by fire and the holy ghost, gift of the holy ghost, and all the ordinances. Teh fulness of the gospel is to converse with the Lord through the veil. This is just what is required to receive the fulness, does not mean our progression is finished.
 
D&C 76 shows Joseph Smith receive a fulness.
 
It Jesus Christ Himself to re-ascend back to God.
 
 
I think Skalen used the word "heard the voice" above in JST Gen. That is how the fulness is received. As Joseph Smith said, this priesthood is not given by descent of man but by God Himself.
 

We are not missing the covenant for salvation. That comes with the baptism of water and fire. Being saved and receiving the fullness of the gospel are not necessarily the same thing. It's important to take into consideration the timeline of events. The BoM indeed does contain the fullness of the gospel, or in other words, it is a road map to attain the fullness. A road map or a blueprint contains information to achieve an end. By holding the road map or the blueprint or the Book of Mormon does not transfer this fullness. This was so important that the Lord tasked Joseph Smith to translate the BoM before even beginning the restoration. 
 
The new and everlasting gospel is new because it is "new" to us. But it isn't new. It was first introduced to Adam. It was also introduced to other patriarchs throughout the dispensations following apostacy from the fullness. As I mentioned earlier, only Enoch succeeded in establishing the fullness over the span of 365 years, during which time the Lord ministered to his people in person. This is the whole point of obtaining the fullness. Once this was achieved, the city was taken in order to preserve its people from the judgment of the flood. It is everlasting because there is not end to it. There is no end to God or His creations for His course is one eternal round. 
 
Those ordinances are stepping stones to obtaining the fullness. One cannot be saved without being born of water and of the Spirit (baptism of fire). Christ is the keeper of the gate and He employs no servant there. Regarding the endowment, it's also important to understand the ceremony. The very first words of the endowment are that we have been washed clean, etc from the sins of the world and that we have been anointed to "hereafter" become kings/priests and queens/priestesses etc. We are very specifically told that "IF" we are true and faithful, we will some day be called up and anointed to become such. So you see, the endowment is merely a preparatory ordinance, which serves as an allegory and is only symbolic of a very real ordinance. You are not really Adam or Eve going through the real process of receiving the fullness. 
 
I love L. Tom Perry and all our current apostles and prophets. I reconcile what I posted with the Parable of the Nobleman, which I explained in my blog. Jesus Christ told the Nephites and Lamanites that the Gentiles would reject the fullness. Joseph Smith labored intensively to prepare their minds, but they fell to pieces like glass every time he tried to teach them. I place what Jesus Christ said in the Book of Mormon and in D&C above what you quoted.
 
We can be sealed, etc in ordinance, but one must carefully pay attention to the ceremony to understand that being anointed to become something "some day" is not the same as being anointed to something now. One must, as Adam did, prove oneself true and faithful in all things when one "knocks" if one wants Jesus Christ to open. This is what Nephi taught and why he quoted Isaiah so much. It is what Jesus Christ taught at Bountiful, which I quoted and what Joseph Smith tirelessly tried to teach the early saints, when he exhorted them to continually all upon the Lord until they make their calling and election sure and so on. 
 
So by virtue of having the Book of Mormon as scripture, we do have the fullness of the gospel. Or in other words, we have the blueprint or the road map. But because the early saints treated it lightly, the Lord placed them under condemnation and since then has not lifted this condemnation from the saints. President Bension declared that it had not been lifted and Elder Oaks later reaffirmed this truth. 
 
D&C 84:54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
 55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
 56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
 57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
 58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
 
Once we understand the condemnation under which we are operating, we can begin to search the scriptures and come unto Christ to lift it. Thus the Parable of the Nobleman in D&C 101 where the Lord tells us that Zion is yet to be redeemed. But this will not happen until He has sent a scourge to cleanse the gentile nation. 
 
No apostle or prophet since President Benson's declaration has received or declared revelation otherwise. When this redemption does occur, the City of Enoch will return and THEN we will have OBTAINED the fullness of the gospel, which I have taken the time to explain by using the scriptures including and especially the Book of Mormon.

Interesting thoughts everyone. Great question by the way.
 
My first thought is to say that the fullness of the gospel as contained in scripture is very much in line with what anatess has said. Essentially the gospel is the good news that Christ succeeded in His divine mission. This information is still contained in the Bible as well, but has been corrupted by creeds that the Lord has declared an abomination in His sight. In essence the text is still intact, but the understanding had largely been lost by the time Joseph Smith was searching for the gospel. The BOM clearly teaches the gospel's good news that Christ did indeed atone for the sins of mankind and conquer the grave. 
 
In both cases I perceive this as containing the message of the gospel, or the framework of the gospel, but not the fullness. So the question remains what is the fullness and where-in is it contained? As you have noted it is said to be contained in the Book of Mormon. Long story short... it is...
 
 
Moroni 10:
 
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is. 
...
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.
 
In my opinion the fullness is only accessed through active participation. The fullness of the gospel (good news) of Christ is in the partaking of His atoning sacrifice. I believe the idea of the fullness of the gospel is often confused with the fullness of the doctrine, but they are separate entities tightly associated with each other.
 
The Book of Mormon contains the fullness because it leads people to Christ. Not just to the idea of Christ, nor just to his teachings, but actually to the Saviour Himself. It does this by strengthening faith in Him and by building a testimony of His church wherein lies the only source of authority to perform saving ordinances. 

I would suggest enlisting the parents: "Parents, due to the messes usually made during our activities, we ask that you not leave with your youth until we have finished cleaning up. Thank you."
 
This way you have additional authority figures making sure the kids are doing what they're supposed to do in a timely manner. The parents want to go home, too!

Thank you so much LP for your insight and thoughts.  I am so sorry that you had that experience, it definitely was not a safe place for you to go with the pain and the shame you were already feeling.  That must have been so hard, especially if it just reinforced those things for which you were trying to find healing for.
 
I understand everything you are saying and have taken note.  We so especially do not want to come across as Peter Priesthood and Molly Mormon and that is why we will be dressed in blue jeans and sneakers to fit in with everybody, so it's not a 'us' and 'them' type situation but of course keeping the necessary boundaries.  I want it to be such a safe place for everybody to share what they feel they want to.  I totally agree with the validation as well.  People will only share in a place that they feel safe enough to do so, so that's very important.  I just look in the manual at all the quotes and stuff and it scares me, as I so don't want to teach as I would a lesson, but teach in a way that's very experiential and interactive.  Therefore, I am going to have to find a way to use the material but not in a teachy way if that makes sense. :)  Thanks once again for sharing. :) *Hugs*

Are you kidding me? Porn is only a big deal because we're not used to it?
 
It is a sin. It is a major deal. It is a major problem. Just because the rest of the world doesn't consider it a problem is irrelevant. A sin is a sin and it is NOT relative. Morality is NOT relative. God sets the standards for what we should and should not "freak" at, not the world.

As a facilitator in the ARP program, let me give you a few suggestions:
1) Read the introduction of the ARP manual.
2) In group meetings, leave a little bit of yourself behind.
3) Know that this will be a calling that you will never want to leave (at least every group leader we had has said that)
4) Don't be afraid to ask questions and give answers.  Don't come at them as a superior but sideways.
5) You're not going to know everything but someone in the group will.  Have a discussion but keep it on the level.  Don't let anyone run amok.
 
Can't really think of anything else right now, but it's been a long day.  BTW, feel free to read my blog to see how the ARP program has affected me.  It changes lives.

Sali - Just to clarify - I know you asked about the actual meetings but I see this calling beyond just that.  My earlier post was referring to reaching out to all the youth and adults in the stake (not just those that come to the meetings) and communicating to them about the privacy, phone-in number, etc.  Anyway, I'm sure you'll do a great job.  All the best!

Just to know... While AA et al are the most famous, as well as extremely successful, and I am in NO way putting them down whatsoever... They're also not the only game in town. There are 2 main branches in addiction med (disease model, and disease model + learned behavior). 12-step programs actually address both theories... Which is part of what makes them so successful, but there are other programs which do so as well. And are as effective if not more effective for many people. ESPECIALLY for
- addictions & addictive behavior which CANNOT be abstained from, or which require moderation in order to live normal / healthy lives to their best potential. (Think food, sex, shopping, etc.)...
- Dual-diagnosis (addiction + other neurological disorder, ESP those which require meds & med management), and
- Situational related heavy use, abuse &/or addiction (ESPx2 when it's an addiction, but the person themselves is not an addict.
AA/NA/et al are amaaaaaaazing for a very select group of people, but they also completely miss a wide swath of people who are struggling with addictions & need help just as badly.
The LDS church based recovery programs are designed to help address that shortfall (as are many many other secular & religious organizations & agencies), in addition to people who are able to be completely served by standard 12-step programs.
Q

By the way, Sali--you've seen this website, right?

One thing you may consider doing is going to some open AA NA CA meetings, as well as some open al-anon, nar-anon, etc. meetings.
If you get a schedule (online or elsewhere), there are codes which show which meetings are open to the public, and which meetings are addicts only / closed to the public. Most meetings are open.
Q

I've never been to one of these meetings but I suggest making very sure there's a strict privacy/no gossiping rule in place that everyone knows about so they're more likely to come/stay.  Also, during Conference Sister Reeves mentioned phone-in meetings.  I'd make sure everyone knew about those because I'm sure there are people who need support but would never go to a meeting because of privacy concerns, not knowing what to expect, too far to drive, need to be home with the kids, etc.  I'd also try to offer *all* the tools possible so people feel more empowered to tackle things from all angles.