estradling75

You evade the simple point that Rob Osborn is not the prophet and he is not the Holy Spirit. Therefore Rob Osborn is not a source of truth and light. Where Rob Osborn contradicts what the Lord's appointed leaders say on a subject he is to be rejected. I see no point in going through this once again... Good bye

You can believe what you wish to believe...that is always your right. Your claims that you know the truth that the prophets and church is wrong is where you are wrong, in error, and rejected soundly... Which we have told you repeatedly. Which you have repeatedly ignored

When we read D&C 93:39 And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers. If we lose Light and Truth through disobedience then would it not logically follow that we gain light and truth through obedience? Study is on the path of obedience. Applying what we learned through study seems to be were it really counts though. Like a little child who does what they at told to do.

And here you go yet again. I will repeat what I said the last time you claimed the prophets are in error and your interpretation is correct. You are entitled to your interpretation. But those that have diligently studied the scriptures and have a testimony of the current prophets will know it is their solemn and sacred duty to reject your claims. Our duty is to follow the Spirit of Revelation and the Prophet of God.. Not Rob Osborn.. And since it is clear you do not get this nor have you ever gotten this in the years you have been making the claims I see no reason to continue in this thread

Yes I do... Let me expand on why. Most of Christiandom believes in a binary model of Heaven and Hell. You have the saved who are cleaned and redeemed from Sin in Heaven(Kindom Of) and those would are not saved, who are filthy still, and unredeemed in Hell. There is a very good reason for this. That is what the bible teaches... it is also what the Book of Mormon teaches. Sure there are some vague comments about Many Mansions and being Rewarded based on Works, but those do not have any details. Lucky for us Faithful Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe in continuing Revelations (Article of Faith 9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.) And we did receive Greater Light and Knowledge on this Subject. In D&C 76 God expanded upon what the Kingdom of Heaven looks like. We do not find this expanded any where else but in the Modern Prophets. Sadly those who reject this greater light then try to demand that we prove it by the lesser light... and that simply can not happen. The Lesser light does not contain the Greater. However the Greater Light still contains the sum total of the Lesser Light. We see this in D&C 76. Read the section and of the Four Groups described only one group is described as "Not Redeemed" The group that gets that description is those without Glory, the Sons of Perdition. This "Not Redeemed" Group represents the Binary Division talked about in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, thus the Lesser Light is still there. Since we are all filthy sinners in need of redemption, but only one group remains so. It seems self evident to me that all the rest become clean/redeemed. There is only one way to become clean/redeemed from Sin given in the scripture. The Atonement of Jesus Christ. Any other means is speculative and not supported by current revelations (and I do not expect there be any given). We are taught that there are two ways the Atonement can work. Either through Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Ghost etc. Or being Without Law (including Kids below the age of accountablity). Any other means is speculative and not supported by current revelations. This is why I feel that the Telestial Kingdom is part of the Kingdom of Heaven, because the dividing line is "Not Redeemed" And there is only one method of being "Redeemed" which means all the rest must be partakers. The dividing line of the Kingdom of Heaven's degrees of Glory appears to be the quality of our Faith (Such divisions and their requirements being the Greater Light) not our Clean/Redeemed Status.

Really that is what you think it means to "turn things over to Christ and be redeemed by him" then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how Christ's atonement works... No point in even trying to talk to you about anything if you have such a deeply flawed understanding of the basics

And I repeat Why is that so hard for your to understand?

What part of Was unclear?

My Vote/thoughts/understanding is that any Kingdom of Glory is part of the "Kingdom of Heaven". Although I fully recognize that some times it is used to mean Celestial Kingdom exclusively. This is because language is flexible and changes rather then being static and locked in. The scriptures are clear that there is a difference between Salvation and Exaltation (aka a Crown of Righteousness). Thus Christ will save all that the Father has put into his hands (aka all but the Sons of Perdition) but not all will be capable of bearing the weight of Glory that is the Celestial Kingdom. Now for the Telestial Kingdom (those that go to Hell first) we get a good example of how this works in the case of Alma the Younger. He rebelled, he rejected, and he went to hell where he suffered the pains of a damned soul. He stayed in that state until he called upon Christ and repented. That is the only way out. You suffer for your sins in Hell until you turn it over to Christ, then you are redeemed. Now Alma the Younger converted while still in mortally, and clearly showed a willingness to do more and therefore showed himself willing to bear the weight of a Greater Glory. Those in the Telestial Kingdom will be freed from the pains of Hell but will be unwilling to bear the weight of a greater glory

I did not say it was sinless nor did I say it was healthy, I agreed it was healthier... Being not suicidal is healthier then being suicidal, non drug abuse is healthier is healthier then drug abuse, safe sex is healthier then non safe sex, monogamy is healthier then promiscuity. And the obvious-ness of it the same regardless of the sexual ordination of the person engaging such actions. The problem is in the unequal reactions that are being demanded on the population based solely on the subjects sexual ordination. A heterosexual suicides, or ODs on drugs and we acknowledge it was tragic, and think maybe someone close to them might have been able to do something.... maybe. A homosexual suicides, or ODs on drugs and before their corpse cools they are being used as a poster child of how horribly oppressive religious /conservative thought is and how any one that holds such thoughts is a monster directly responsible for death and they need to be punished... While at the same time saying that homosexuals just want to be treated the same as everyone else.

That does sound healthier.. But there is a problem. By that definition there are penalty of heterosexuals that are unhealthy as well.. Where is the outrage about that? We don't blame large generic chunks of the population (say like religious group) for the unhealthy heterosexuals, we don't demand large generic chunks of the population change their actions, attitudes or beliefs to 'protect' these unhealthy heterosexuals. Nope in these cases we say fix yourselves and maybe we can help. Yet you are unwilling to do the same with homosexuals. You can not complain of not being treated like everyone else while at the same time demanding special treatment.

And anyone can repent of violations of the Law of Chastity. (Not saying it is easy just doable)

Way to miss the point...Lets give another example. I am a heterosexual male. If my "True Self" was heterosexual male (as the world defines it) then I would be trying to have sex with just about every attractive female I meet. The church accepts my heterosexual maleness, but it does proscribe limits on my behavior/deeds. Since my "True Self" is "Child of God" with a subset of "heterosexual male" and other stuff, in as much as the subsets are in harmony with my "true self" they are allowed, the parts that are not, are not. And of course I am working on becoming converted to Christ, and putting off the natural man. To do that effectively I need to know were my weak points are, and the subset of heterosexual male has a big one (and really most people's sexual identity does). I do not do myself any favors pretending it does not exist. By acknowledging that it exists I can plan for it, take whatever steps needed to counter it. Whereas if it listened to people like you and figured it would just go away. I'd be constantly failing, constantly miserable, and be ready to curse God because he simply did not take it away. God will strengthen and support us be we still have to put in the work. And no work can be done if you fail to acknowledge where the work is needed.

There is some wisdom is recognizing your weaknesses. Take your standard Addiction Recovery Program the standard intro in these programs is "I am <Name> and I am a Alcoholic/Addict" An such programs really can't help as long as the person is in denial of their problems. Said acknowledgment is very much pulling it in to the light. The problem is the world is in hard denial of the spiritual damage of sin and is currently celebrating this one. Which makes it like an alcoholic hanging out in a bar. I would not put it pass the various news agencies to spin a confession in to a "Coming out." Are they doing that here with Brother Harkey? I do not know... Time will tell.

You are the kind of person that the Homosexual agenda drivers love. Because you are doing everything they want in the name of poor hurting people.. without understanding why they are really hurting. Homosexual have gotten there legal equality... But that is not enough... and it is never going to be enough until you destroy anyone that thinks differently. The church has existed for 200 or so years. And in that two hundred years, there as always been a small numbers of suicides and self harm. It is a simple fact of human nature that there will always be outliers. Then the Homosexual agenda takes off.. and the Suicides and Self Harm among the Homosexual population rise. Instead of thinking critically about the cause and effect of what is really causing the Dead and Broken. You weaponize compassion and take aim at the wrong target. Our position on Homosexuality did not cause the rise in Dead Bodies. We are the Scape Goat. Now your weaponized compassion is taking you to the point where you are justifying the punishment of anyone that think or feels differently. That is not leaving us alone. That is not tolerant, that is not supporting diversity... That weaponized compassion... that is you abusing the dead and hurting yet again... while lying to yourself that you are doing the RIGHT THING.

So lets talk advantages for Society at large. What is the advantages to/for Society for Homosexual relationships and/or Marriages? The answer Nothing... zip... zero... nada... It all about individual desires and interest. What is the advantages to/for Society for Heterosexual relationships and/or Marriages? The continuation of the species. That is a big, huge, major, deal. So much so that even though not all Heterosexual relationships and/or Marriages will produce offspring it is still worth supporting as a Society as a general thing. Winner in the best for Society is Heterosexual relationships. Hands down. (even with all their flaws) Now lets talk individual advantages... This is were the Homosexual supporter are limited to making their cases. They want to be happy, they want joy. This is totally understandable. So much that those who are speaking out want them to have it too, but we know that 'wickedness never was happiness', and the maximum joy comes from following God's command. It does not come from rebelling against God, or trying to convince yourself that God is really ok with your sin. So yeah both sides want the same goal they just have different understandings of how to get there. Now perhaps your response to that is tell me to mind my own business and let you live your life as you wish. That is fair. But to get that you have to leave me alone as well. Don't try to force me to validate your choices. I respect that it is your choice to make, but do not expect/demand that I approve or support your choices. Because that is in no way your right. Go live your life the way you deem fit and grant me the exact same ability to live my life the way I deem fit.

Realistically we all break the standards of the church... its called sinning. Its not a good thing, however as long as we recognize it as such and are trying to do better we will be ok. The bigger problem is when we buy into the lies the world selling that our favorite sin (whatever it might be) is really ok. Public figures are not immune to sinning... And we should not expect them to be. The real question is are they becoming converted to the Great and Spacious Building? We have no way of knowing that at this point in time. However stepping out from under the control of BYU will let them be more truely who they wish to be... For Good or Bad

Oh please... your question is a variation on the Question of why does God let Bad things happen to Good people. That has been answered and repeatedly. Because this life is a test to prove if we will follow him or if we will follow our own desires. Everyone faces this test even while the precise nature of the individuals test varies, it is the same test.

You are on a religious based forum... It being a SIN is all we need. You might want to tell God to sit down and shut up be we do not.

Since this thread is in the LDS Gospel Discussion lets make it a Gospel Discussion on the issue. For any attempt to do anything we need to understand what the Most Fundamental Goal is. Anything that conflicts or weakens this goal must be discarded. In the Gospel of Jesus Christ the most Fundamental Goal is God's Work and Glory which is "To bring to pass the Immortality and Eternal Life of Man" Anything that conflicts or impedes this Goal no matter how good needs to be discarded (and killed with fire). Now other teachings tell us that "Immortality and Eternal Life" is God's life, it is his nature. And his work to get us there involves him giving us Commands that help us partake of his nature (ie become more like him). The scriptures are quite clear that the creation and sending us to earth was part of God's work. Here we would be proven to see if we would follow God's Commands. That is the whole point of this mortal life. Not fairness, not equality, not even justice. While those are all good and important they are side effects as we follow God's Commands. We should never let our desires for a Good Side Effect blind us to the most fundamental Goal. Because if we do not only to we risk losing the main Goal we also lose the desirable side effects. We see this play out in Satan's rebellion. God's plan is driven by people choosing to follow God's Commands. This means that some people will choose not to. Satan's plan was one of compulsion. No one would be given a choice. Everyone would be forced. God rejected this plan soundly. We can debate the various reasons for this but to me the biggest reason is that Compulsion does not work "To bring to pass the Immortality and Eternal Life of Man." What the typical response you have when you feel someone is compelling you to do something? Most likely you will rebel and try to do(become) something else. This blocks the biggest goal (and there fore should be killed with fire) Now a hugely important aspect of God is Charity. He sees us weak, inferior, sinners, and he is creating Heaven and Earth and shedding his own sweat, blood and tears to heal us, fix us, and share everything he has with us. This is pure Charity. This is an aspect he Commands us to have as well. We are Commanded to be charitable. But we are not Compelled to be charitable. While people might debate the effectiveness of helping the poor and needy through compulsory means, when it comes to the Most Fundamental Goal it fails totally. It does not develop the aspect of Charity in the one compelled, it fact in most likey destroys or retards it. Or to put it simply paying taxes does not help you develop more Christ-like charity, and if you are compelled (say through taxes) you are less likely to be willing to do any more. Thus we see that our efforts to increase the help to the poor and needy must be done through the means of persuasion, conversion and other means that encourage a voluntary response. The moment it becomes compulsory, forced, or otherwise non-voluntary we have crossed a line we should not cross.

Its the Standard tactic of weaponized compassion... Find a near universal idea.. (in this case helping the poor and needy) Just about everyone agrees to that. Then propose an Idea (Rob the rich and enslave the Doctors and Lawyers) that might solve it. Then when ever anyone even thinks about challenging/protesting the second idea... accuse them of not being willing to help the poor and needy. Thus you can avoid trying to answer any of the hard question your idea brings about because you have villianized any one that thinks different then you.

And it the same subject over and over again...As if he expects to get different answers from the other threads he has repeatably addressed this subject on

Honestly...At their age they are probable set in their ways. Either you need to make your calls to repentance less subtle and use more blunt/sharpness (with all the expected fall out of that)... Or simply accept them the way they are... and realize your desires to serve the members of your ward includes them as well. Yes it is a sacrifice and yes it is hard but that is when it matters even more.

Indeed his total lack of compassion and charity toward one he has personally wronged and harmed is telling...

My son just finish a Youth Service Mission that they are describing. In fact the article's Elder Horne served doing what my son did. I have to check to see if he knows him