Gwen

elphaba, not sure if this is even remotely the same thing (probably not) or if it will be even remotely helpful. i don't know all the details of your situation but reading your post made me think about something that happened with my sis and i. my sis is 18months older than me. we did everything together. i was rather shy when i first met new ppl or situations so i followed her everywhere. she was a good big sis and let me. we were as much friends as we were family. it was great growing up, i always had someone to show me the way, teach me the ropes, i lived with my best friend. then came that awkward yr when she left highschool and joined the "real world" while i still had a yr to finish. she went off for a summer to work for a facility for troubled youngsters (helped with her degree in school) and i was left home. at first i was lost, without her i had no friends (all her friends were my friends and they too moved on), i was to shy to go out and do things alone, etc. so i decided it was time to grow up. i did finally find some things to do, ppl to go out with, that kind of thing. i found i'm not really all that shy. i had fun. i found my life. a life without her leading the way. i found some independance. was one of the best summers of my life. she came back at the end of the summer and all her friends had left town, and little did i know it had been one of the worst and lonelyest summers of her life, and the roles were reversed. she wanted to do everything i was doing, i had all this stuff going on, she wanted to spend time with her sis and friend. i was afraid she wanted things to be like they were, i didn't want to let go of my new found self. so i pushed her away, didn't invite her to the things i was doing. that went on for a bit till she mentioned how hurt she was to me. i knew i was doing it but not to that extent, i didn't realize how much it hurt her. she told me how horrible her summer had been, i told her my concerns of going back (though i cherish those memories with her) to the way it was. we had to find a new way to have our relationship. a way that embrassed the changes we were going through. once we knew the situation and eachothers situation we were able to go back to being the friends we'd always been. but as "adults" this time rather than "kids". my point lol (it's bad when you have to point out the point, i think i do that alot, anyway) sounded to me like you described a fairly large transition to a new place in life for her. she may not know how to keep what you had without going back compleatly to what you were. maybe she wants to be there (the hug she came back to give you), just not sure how to and have this new life of hers. kinda like i was with my sis. i agree with shan, i think you should talk to her. carefully. you don't want her to think or feel like you are guilting her into something or back to where you were. she may not know how lonely you are or what she can do about it. just an open discussion about the changes, what she wants, what you want, that kind of thing. another thought, rather lds-ish in manner (sorry, it's who i am lol). there was a talk recently about the tender mercies of the lord, how the lord speaks to us in so many simple ways to comfort us. the hug your daughter came back to give you sounded like that to me. not getting out much (for any reason) can lead to depression and thoughts that satan loves us to have. most leading to sorrow. your daughter was aware of you and sinsitive enough to realize she needed to come back and give you a hug. take that for the beauty that it is, sounds like you did a good job raising a good girl. yes she is going to leave, yes things will change. you can focus on that or you can focus on the fact that she came back for that hug. she came back!! i hope this works out well for you

lol not sure i was "suggesting" anything, just reminded me of how funny it was when my school used chickens to get rid of their black widow problems. but yeah, i think i was the first to say the word chicken. tell me something shan, are they more like having a cat/dog or a reptile/fish, etc? i can keep cats and dogs alive pretty good, but our fish and turtle i killed with ease. lol wonder if i could even keep a group of chickens alive long enough to have eggs. i guess not something for me to lose any sleep over, can't have any in the neighborhood i'm in anyway. maybe when we move. i loved the fresh eggs we got from my sis. the yolk was brighter than store eggs, and they did taste different. i thought they were better; the kids weren't so sure, but they were from the farm so they enjoyed it.

all this from a comment on spiders. lol that's great shan! you've inspired me, though i know i don't comment much on your chicken topics. lol i've decided i'll need some chickens when my boys are bigger, as small children we already use nearly a dozen eggs for breakfast. the first eggs are unbelievably small. we went to my sis' farm not long ago and she got her first egg from her chickens. it was so tiny, i thought she should have hollowed it out and just kept the shell, so cute. useless for eating though. would have needed a couple of dozen just for one meal. lol

22 For in those days there shall also arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch, that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect, who are the elect according to the covenant. (Pearl of Great Price | JS-Matthew 1:22) i too read this scripture and it sent my mind into similar thoughts. how? "the elect according to the covenant" who are those? in my mind it's those that when you try to think of a strong upstanding faithful memeber of the chruch, someone you should try to be more like (obviously we should be trying to be like christ not ppl, but you know what i mean) these are the ppl that come to mind. i can see how many would be deceived, but the elect of the covenant? that is rather powerful. then something came to my mind. i thought it was a valid thought though my husband disagreed. lol what if some of these false prophets are the elect of the covenant? is it possible that there will be bishops or stake presidents somewhere who get big headed and start making the ward their own chruch, doing what they will? that there will be those that are so faithful that they will take the word of these ppl that "the prophet said so" even though they did not; that they will not reasearch and find out for themselves? is it possible to have a division once again in the chruch just as in the early days when joseph died? will even the very elect of the covenant be deceived and make the wrong choice? as i thought about this i thought about the new way of doing stake conferences. we are getting more and more teaching straight from the first presidency. there is a lot of effort to make sure ppl go to general conference, or at least have access to an ensign. you can get all the teachings you want straight from the prophets, there is no need to "take a bishops word" for anything. personal revelation is so vital to our lives, we must be able to know for ourselves, we have never been asked to follow just because. now i'm not suggesting that ppl start "rebelling" against their leadership. but to know what the prophets have said, if there is a huge concern, if you truely think your leadership is that out of line there are ways to address it; there are ways to go up the line of authority and resolve the issues. i said this somewhere else but i truely believe it; the right thing, for the right reason, in the right way. i think this quote from another topic helps to make my point and maybe does it a bit clearer. lol

we can sometimes get revelation contrary to our leaders. i find the biggest factor in that is weither or not we are humbling ourselves to revelation or not. the lord may tell us that something is wrong but to do it anyway. it's easy to take what we know is wrong and turn it into a run away train into other things. we must remember to be humble, not adversarial when seeking such answers. if we are to sure we are right then we won't hear the answer anyway. i recently went through something like this. not sharing out of pride that i think i "got it right" but how much of a test it was on my testamony, how hard it was. there was a member of our stake leadership (in a position directly over my husband) that is assisting a family member in their promise to destroy my family. he used the chruch and some legal loopholes to do this. i knew that was wrong, i knew he shouldn't be in that calling. i felt like the stake leadership wasn't doing what they should to stop this man. i was very angery and hurt. that got caught up in all my emotions, all this happening 3 or so weeks prior to branch conference i was faced with the sustaining part, and thought a lot about it. at first i had decided that i could not sustain this brother. as i learned of events that had transpired i decided at the last min that i could not sustain anyone in the stake presidency either. i had good logic, rational, and feelings that supported me. saturday night i thought maybe not sustaining the stake pres wasn't right and maybe just keep it to the one that was out of line. then i questioned my motives of not sustaining anyone. come sunday morning i really didn't know what i would do. our sacrament meeting is last so i got 2 hours to worry about it. i honestly didn't make a decision till we were in the sustaining process. i listened more carefully to the sustaining than i ever have. as the previous meetings went on my anger (not the hurt) toward the stake presidency did subside. i ended up not sustaing the one brother, but i did sustain the stake pres. i of course got called in to talk after the meetings. i was so worried about that meeting. i learned that though i still think the stake pres was wrong in what he did, there was no ill will toward our family intended; i'm glad i sustained him and his counselors. these were facts i didn't know going in. i explained very passionatly who and why i opposed. then something i never expected happened. he looked at me and said sis....for the first time in discussing an opposition to a calling i can say i think your reasons are righteous, i agree with you; and you have my word as soon as something can be done this will be taken care of appropriately. sustaining him was the right thing to do; even if he hadn't agreed with me, and i still think he made a poor choice. but his heart was in the right place and there is nothing the father can't fix. my point, trust inspiration only when you are opening yourself up to it. listening, humbling, trying to hear and follow the savior. and trust the father to be able to fix the dumb mistakes you and others make. there are appropriate ways to oppose your leadership and then there are the wrong ways. do the right things, for the right reasons, in the right way; miss one of the three and you will find yourself off course.

i think when a family becomes natives rather than immigrants will be up to the family. it could be a single generation or several. what i mean by that is how they behave once they get here. my family immigrated from sweaden. my great grandparents were the ones that came over. when they got here they wanted to be in america, they left for their reasons. they gave their kids "american" names, they learned the language and taught it to their kids, celebrated "american" holidays, learned the customs and started doing that. they were leaving their country and wanted to be americans. my grandfather never learned the native language of his parents. by the time my father was born the only evidence of where the family was from was the last name was .......son, and even that had been modified to an "american" spelling. and the glaring fair skin, blonde hair, blue eyes genetics. there are some familys that come here and refuse to become a part of what is going on here. they refuse to speak english in the home. they refuse to awknowledge the customs, culture, or anything else that is "american". they don't get involved in politics, they don't vote. they turn their isolated area into a mini of their homeland. for generations you can have children that live here were born here and know the homeland language and culture better than they do the "american". comparing the two, my family became locals, these others are still immigrants. same number of generations, different family attitude. before anyone jumps on this, i do want to say that i don't think the way my family did it was the best way. i think there should be a middle ground. i think we should know where we come from, teaching our chrildren the culture and language from whence they came can only help them, increase their divercity, tollerance, and education. making them more equipt to enter this world. there should be an embracing of both worlds not a casting off or rejection of one or the other. in my mind that is the ideal way to immigrate and become american. we have done some family history and started using some of the names from the family that immigrated for our children. we have tried to bring a little of that back into our family, not just to know who we are, where we come from, but as a way to honor those that brought us to america. i'm glad they made that difficult trip and decision generations ago.

Abraham 3 24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; 25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever. 27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first. 28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him. moses 4 1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor. 2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever. 3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down; “Lesson 28: Agency,” Young Women Manual 2, 105 Note to the teacher In the following discussion, be certain that the young women understand that Heavenly Father presented the only plan. Jesus accepted it and volunteered to be the Savior; Lucifer rejected it and rebelled. dr phil "If you harbor hatred and anger and bitterness, then you are absolutly locked into a bond with that person through those negative emotions. anger and bitterness is a pervasive emotion. it crowds into everything, it changes who you are, it makes you distrustful, it makes you guarded, it makes you realy a different person than you are; and your children will pay the price for that, if you do. so you have to say i let it go. i'm gonna live now. the past is over the future hasn't happened yet. the only time with you is now, with your family and those chrildren." (may 06) so that's my list of quotes lol the reason i picked those.... taught this lesson on agency recently and realized something for the first time. i had been taught before (didn't realize it wasn't chruch teaching till i read it here) that satan's down fall wasn't his idea but his pride when the idea was rejected. i have always believed that. i recall asking when i was in the youth program, "why did satan tempt adam and eve, the garden was his plan, if he had let it alone there would be no progression, he would have won?" along the same line as the questions here. i accepted that pride was the root never really understanding it. then when teaching this lesson on agency something jumped off the page and hit me like never before. "and the second was angry" that brings me to the dr phil quote lol i no longer believe it was pride (pride alone i mean) but the greater motivator is anger. anger is nasty stuff. it makes no logical since. it destroys. it is truely the base emotion that satan lives off of and drives us toward. he came to hate our father, that locked him into a self distructive bond with him. i don't think he realized the garden was his plan, he saw it as what the father created, must be his plan, i must destroy that, i must get them to do anything and everything they were told not to do. he coudln't/can't think outside that anger. he can't walk away, let it go. he is controled by that anger. we are currently in a situation where there is someone so angry at us that she will do anything to destroy us. she has promised that. she does everything and anything to try to make us look bad. she doesn't care if she looks bad as long as she thinks we look worse. any time someone she had in her power to help her decides they will not be destroyed with her and join her cause 100% they then become on her most hated list. she recently used a loophole in the law to hurt our family. she got what she wanted, and it hurt. but in the process the church leaders told her that this was a legal loophole and they hated it was being used to hurt us, that she was wrong. now she is threatening to sue the chruch. she got what she wanted but they rebuked her in the process, they didn't agree. so she hates them even though she got what she wanted. she had legal officials "on her side" but has gone so far to try to make us look bad that she has upset them. she used to be nice to them, these legal officials used to comment that we were as much a problem as her cause she was so nice, but as soon as they stood against her in her efforts to hurt us and said this is out of line; she now is against them. ppl that do this for a living have commented that she is one of the most difficult and deceptive ppl they have ever delt with. her anger is driving her. one thing we've been feeling for a long time is that we should do nothing. just keep letting her do things. give her the rope, she will hang herself. and that is what she is doing. not responding with hurt and anger back (and some of the offenses have been bad) we are trying to remain calm and just let it happen. it's one of the hardest things i've ever had to do. but i can see it. she is only hurting herself. with every step and breath she brings against us it is backfireing. only making her more angery, causing her to take it one step further than the last time. the hole is getting deeper and deeper. i do believe unless something drastic happens she will not stop until she has compleatly destroyed herself and all those relationships around her. she will be left with nothing but her anger. if i take this same anger and compare it to what satan is doing it all makes since. why he would go against himself. he is smart enough to see it, but to angry to see it. each loss (irreguardless of the wins) drives him to become more angry. it's a vicious and destructive cycle. the only way out is to let go of the anger. only the person feeling the anger can let go of it. yes pride is powerful and somewhat connected to the problem, but don't underestimate anger.

sounds like satan is feeding you some of his most classic lines. well, you messed up. sure the lord says if you never stop trying he will never give up. but come on, how long do you think he will watch you keep messing it up. you know you are just going to mess it up again so why try? why repent one more time? it's not real repentance anyway, you never really repented the first time, if you had you wouldn't have slipped up and done it again. you didn't have a change of heart, you didn't really want to stop, it was just lip service, if you try to repent again you are just condeming yourself. don't try. better yet, you aren't worthy to talk to the lord about this. you have mocked him with your "repenting" attempts. you have to get this 100% under control all by yourself before you can even show your face in chruch again. why bother? you will never be perfect. you are wasteing the lord's time, tisk tisk. he's not gonna love you anymore if you keep this up............blah blah blah blah blah..... any of that sound familiar? i know they are lines he's used with me a thousand times. one of his greatest tools is to pit us against ourselves. make us doubt the lord's promises. make us doubt our streangth. get us to quit trying. i agree with six that desire is an important element in repenting. the lord knows our hearts. if we really are trying every time, then all of those attempts and the courage to never give up to keep trying is in our favor. another thing to consider on the road to figuring out how to employ true repentance is that of how are you going about it. i think insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. don't let this drive you crazy. if the way you went about it the first time (or the first 10 times) didn't work don't keep doing that same thing. try something new. take it to the lord, let him know how hard you are trying, how it's driving you crazy to keep messing this up, ask him to help you find the path out of this that will work. reasearch others accounts of similar issues and how they overcame it. what worked for them? have you tried that? overcomming substance abuse comes to mind. first time they may try to do it alone, i can kick this by myself attitude. if they can't do it alone how many times should they try that before they realize they can't? if that is all they ever try they will never kick the addiction and destroy themselves in the process. accounts from others experiances show that one most likely needs support to overcome such addictions. instead of giving up they should start again, with a support group this time. may mess up again, so evaluate it, what could have been done better? maybe the meetings weren't enough, maybe they need a sponser, someone there at any time of day or night to walk them through weak moments........... one try after another till it works. evaluate each "failed" attempt and figure out what can make your efforts more effective. ask the lord to help you evaluate, ask him to help you come up with the new plan. if you don't give up on you and he won't give up on you. i know when satan starts in on me with those lines i end up left with a choice to make. listen and take the easy road of depression and discouragment to self distruction. or to start doing something new to find what it is i'm looking for. takes work, not the easiest road, but it's the right road. personally i can be a bit dense at times and start down the easy road for a bit till something or someone gives me that swift kick in the rear i need to snap out of it. lol something that just jumped into my head. having to repent over and over and over is something the lord expects we will have to do. he not only expected it but created a way that we could and would be reminded we should. we take the sacrament every week for a reason. we are given that chance to evaluate, repent, and start in on the next week with a new resolve. he knows we need him at least every seven days. the sacrament is for everyone, not just those that need it. we aren't told you don't have to take the sacrament if you didn't mess up this last week. we aren't told that cause there isn't a person on this earth that doesn't need it every week. nobody gets through a week without messing something up. and when we've messed up so bad that we feel or are told we shouldn't partake? that time is a chance to be reminded. re-evaluate what's been going on the last week. make a plan for the next week to make it better. set the goals needed to be able to partake again. this should be something on our minds on a regular basis, at the minimum a weekly basis.

lol, i'm not pushing for anyone to get kicked off. mods, yall saw that right? :) personally i figure it was a bad decison on both parts, the mother and the stewardess. i just figure when someone is paid to be something they can't afford to have a bad day and if they do they need to own up to it and take the consequences. i don't think it was all one persons fault or the other. i don't recall saying i thought the mother was holy in any way (nor is the stewardess). but if i have to side i side with the mother, even if she is a bad mom. if these were two ppl in a public park having a problem i might see it differently. but one of the ppl were being paid to represent a company, she was obligated to be above the rest. and just for the record i agree that parents need to teach their chrildren more respect and about proper public behavior and others personal space and common decency, etc. no objections with that at all.

anyone with children knows shut up is a bad word and we should be mature enough to find a better way to handle the situation. i have seen many unruly children and i too get annoyed but i have never spoken to another parent that way. there are adult ways to handle the situation. and i have involved myself in the taming of others unruley children before without confrontation. the stewardess is the professional. she is held to a higher standard than the passengers. she should have known better even if the mother was stupid. even in the worst of circumstances it is no reason to delay many flights by turning around and kicking them off. the offense was not worthy of that action. not to mention just speaking the way she did gives the other passengers permisson to begin acting rudely as well, then you could have a much bigger situation. her job is to set the tone (she is in a service profession) not get her pantys in a wad. many ppl in this world (who should know better) behave in dumb ways, that does not give us a liscense to go around being ugly to ppl. the bottom line is none of us were there. we don't know what the kid was doing. just cause you may have seen stewardess give a lot of leeway and have had problems doesn't mean this stewardess wasn't pms'ing and snapy for no reason. maybe the situation was exactly as you called it. still doesn't change that the stewardess was out of line. there are a thousand better ways for this situation to be handled. sorry you have had so many bad experiances six, but you can't assume and pass judgement on this mother like that. you weren't there, and even if you were, you don't know the whole story. my problem was with the judgmental tone of your comment. if you want to say, i've had many horrible experiances and think some childrens behavior is worthy of that action, fine. if more companies would insist parents be parents or they are not welcome to use their services it would be better for the country as a whole, fine. if flights should have some children free ones avaliable (like the peanut free); fine. i may disagree but no problems there. my kids are very well behaved, but as all children do they have their moments, some in public. i've had ppl who know nothing of the circumstances give me that judgmental look, like they are dying to tell me off and how to raise my kids. in the most unhelpful way to the situation as possible. i don't like it, it's not ok. i've also had ppl assist in the situation, give me the benifit of the doubt and take action respectfully. i have no problems with that and at times have been very greatfull for it. we shouldn't pass judgment on others so casualy.

i have to disagree with you six. the mother could have come up with a better response and the comment was rude. that i can support. but she had just been told to "shut her kid up".......i thought the stewardess job was to be professional and handle things with tact and decorum. she failed miserably first. excuse the mothers agitated response? no, but i can understand it. if the child were distraut and freaking out about flying i could see drugging your child (for their psycological health) but just cause. there are a lot of things the mother could do as well as the other passengers to help. i didn't see the situation and maybe she was ignoring her child (if so, could be why he kept saying it, wanted to be heard); but she also may have been trying to handle it. to be so judgemental over such a small amt of information is a bit rash. i'd sue the airlines (starting with a letter and call of complaint to customer service to see if they would rectify the situation without being so drastic), that was not grounds for kicking someone off a plane, she paid her money to be there like everyone else. there are a lot more rude and annoying adults than a small child saying the same thing over and over. there are somethings i don't think a parent should be required to do. if you choose to fine, but required, no. drugging your child for travel is one of them. i don't drug my children unless they are sick and need drugs. only by being exposed to the situation will they learn to behave in them.

the roll paper i forgot about that!! lol we were taught about computers in elem school. they were so excited, they had one. how to handle and care for the floppy, floppy disks (that's what i always called them). didn't have one at home. by the time i got to middle school they had moved on to the 3.5 in disks (lol i hope that is the right size, can't even remember, the hard floppys). my dad did finally buy one by then. at that time all i was worried about was learning how to type on it. used those disks through high school, cause the schools didn't stay cutting edge and have the computers capable of cd's. (i'm not that old :) ) i take that back they did have 3 computers in the library that used them, and had internet access, the class room computers weren't cutting edge. i don't know much about the technical part of the computers i used, to be honest i cared less. lol the branch i'm in now has a lot of grandparents that touch computers only when required. we were having a family history class and one of the sis said she had gone a couple of yrs before to the stake fhc and put a lot of her information on disk and didn't know how to utilize it. i'm not all that computer literate in the grand scheme of comparisons but i can figure out the basics, so i told her to bring it and i'd see if i could help her (no one else there had a clue). she brought all the stuff on the next sunday and it was on one of the floppy floppy disks. it was so hard not to laugh. a couple yrs ago, huh? ........ which reminds me of another encounter i have to share. lol right after i moved to this branch (end of 2000). this sis and another were punching holes in some sheets they had run off on the copier in the library. they had a sheet of notebook paper and were tracing the holes onto the copies and then single hole punching them. i picked up the three hole hole punch, and asked why they weren't just using this. they didn't know what it was. watching these two sis try to figure out how to use it.....i'm laughing just thinking about it....they had no clue. i finally had to show them before i started to feel bad for laughing. they were so amazed at my knowledge, the coolest thing they had seen all week. lol in comparison, a recent trip to my dad's house had me trying to explain to my kid (5yr old) why grandpa only had 3 channels, and why they couldn't pause live tv. wow, my kids are spoiled. lol

i agree that the ppl out west making the policies don't have a full spectrum of what it means to be single at certian ages or in certian areas. the policies don't really fit some of the situations. but the handbook of instruction does allow for units and stakes to prayerfully make changes to accomidate their circumstances. in the singles group i attended everything was a combined ysa/sa activity (not just our stake but any converences in the region as well). yes the line was there, but we had the same problems, and there are so few here as it is, that it was decided not to use the line. we did have two fhe's in which you could decide which to attend, one would get anyone under 40 crowd and the other would get the rest. they "ysa" (though not officially called that cause there were those over 30) would do the fun physical stuff and what not for activities; while the other group was more discussion and chit chat. if you are that dissatisfied with how things are going then get involved, find your rep (if you don't have one inquire about it with the stake pres.....hehehe.....you will probably get called very shortly; how i ended up being stake ysa rep for some time) and ask what you can do to help the program, give suggestions, be willing to help where you can to prepare for and carry out the activities. be proactive, if you are single it's your program; i know when i was stake ysa rep i loved ppl who came to me eager to be a part of planning and ideas sessions.

i saw a rainbow yesterday evening. just thought yall might want to know. all honesty, i've not been following this topic to that much detail. and i haven't reasearched it (not commonly taught in sunday school classes; must not be the most important belief we have if it is "mormon teachings") but out of curiosity from the last comment, there may not be any historical reports on the lack of rainbows, but where exactly are the historical reports of having them? ppl just don't seem to write this down. failure to show proof of one hypothisis dosen't by default make the other hypothisis true, there must still be evidance of the other. sometimes lack of evidence keeps things in theory stage for a long time, same reason we have so many theories as to what happened to the dinosaurs; not enough evidence to prove or disprove any of them, so they stay theories.

nobody questions the use or breading of mules. how is this much different? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule not sure how much is truth and fiction, but it's interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger http://www.sierrasafarizoo.com/animals/liger.htm http://www.hemmy.net/2006/06/19/top-10-hybrid-animals/ what i find interesting is the majority of cases i've heard of (i'm sure someone will correct me with the facts if they have them) is that hybrids are usually only found in captivity and are predominately infertile. leading me to 2 conclusions. animals have but one command, to multiply and reproduce after their kind. that is actually two fold, if they can after their kind they won't intermix (thus only in captivity); and if they can't the drive to multiply is that great and they will find a way. i'd guess it's not exactly what heavenly father had in mind or they wouldn't be infertile. god's ways are ways of order; there would be very little order if anything could/would reproduce with anything. what about hybrid plants? i saw a tree in a catalog not long ago that had like 3 different kinds of fruit that would grow on it. is that ok with our heavenly father?

Susie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this kinda came out of the blue. pm me and we can exchange emails if you would like to stay in touch. if there is anything that can be done to keep you around let us know. you will be missed. if we can't get you to stay, take care. glad i got to know you. take care of that family of yours, k. lots of love, gwen

I have: Mormon. It has cost me a dream job (working people like Jack Nicklaus to design golf courses) and got me fired from my last job (by a SB Preacher's wife, no less). It may not be the same, but I do know what it is like to be labeled and have people gunning for you. first i'd like to note that i didn't feel that anyone here was "not getting along" with anyone else, or that any fight had been picked. just ppl stating their opinions and perspectives and why they are like they are. that is how we learn and imporove is by taking the time to share and have things shared with us. i see no contention or animosity here. maybe i've missed something or was misunderstood. if so, please point it out. as for being labeled. being mormon is a part of who i am. any fallout that comes from that is mearly someone being prejudice. something i must live with. if you live in ut, are not a mormon and get treated as you are with said prejudice, then you have been labeled as one thing (lds) based on an unrelated issue (living in ut). so though i apreciate your attemt to relate, and i am sorry for the hate you have seen, that is not a label. a label is a judgment that is not true (at least unverified and has no purpose to help the person), one that you may or may not be inclined to accept about yourself. children tend to accept labels. i have learning disabilities, they were diagnosed (fortunatly for me before i got the label), i was educated as to what i had and how to overcome it to succeed. and i did. that is a diagnosis. something a qualified professional can pinpoint and then you can be given tools and understanding to overcome it. when i sat in histroy and the teacher commented to a random student that was not behaving that they needed to go to the ld class cause she wasn't a zoo keeper. that was a label. that label did add difficulty to my having my diagnosis. but i could deal with it. i knew the difference. i reported the teacher, had myslef removed from the class, and when she said upon my leaving that i was a good student and she would miss me i thought, well i can't stay you aren't a zoo keeper. unfortunatly at this time in my life i was very sevearly plaged by the trailor trash label and didn't have the confidence to actually say it. i have seen how many students were plaged by the label rather than understanding the diagnosis. being labled trailor trash was different. it wasn't true. it did over time seep in, though my learning at chruch tried to keep it out. though i could say, i'm not trash, i still felt like trash. to this day i struggle with feeling like my neighbors are looking at me like i'm out of place, what am i doing in this neighborhood, i don't belong here. as a child i couldn't seperate that label out. i did live in a trailor, i did live with many of the things that others said was trailor trash, i didn't have the things ppl that weren't trailor trash had. as i thought about it...it looked true, it must be right. the faulty thinking of a child. but once i accepted it about myself, once i let it in; it's been hard to get it back out again. being prejudiced against for something that is true (though often has a set of labels attached to it by those that feel the prejudice) is one thing and deplorable by all streatches of the imagination. being labled is another. labels usually come with their own set of prejudicial behavior. prejudice is an outside pressure that challenges streangth. labels eat away your streangth from the inside out.

there are those that use the system. have found ways and do it on purpose. but i think the numbers are far lower than you might think. what appears to be happening and what is are often very different. maybe the issue here is defination. find another word for those ppl. because the word you are useing has a much broader meaning and can and will be misunderstood. i think no one a monster. i have met those like you describe. just don't know if you know how hard it is to get a label like that out of your head. what that does to a person. what a great tool satan has found in that. labels are very curosive to a person. if you've ever lived with one i'd hope you could understand. if you haven't, how wonderful to not have had to live with it.

i don't know where it comes from or who wrote it but i have this framed in my home. it was given to me, found at a garage sale. i like it. "A MOTHER'S CALLING God has uniquely designed me to be a mother. He has created me with a special ability to nurture and care for my children. He has chosen me to love them and mentor them. I show my love for my children by loving their father. Even though this culture has placed greater significance on activities outside the home. I choose to be a woman who loves my husband and children, is self-controlled and pure, and cares for my home. By doing this, I show my love for God and His Word."

hey yedi, i understand the hurt when hearing those words as well. they are words meant to keep ppl in that social class, they are words used to keep ppl down, it's not a joke, it's not a chosen lifestlye, it's not about being less or having been created less. god doesn't make trash, ppl don't make themselves trash, this world and satan makes them that way. untill you've felt like trash you have no idea how hard that is to get out of your head. that trash on the corner has the same godly potential as the ut 5th generation, look at how much better i am...... there is a big reason i'd never move out west. nearly every missionary we get from out west, young or old, has to be reprogramed to not look down on those they teach here. you can't teach someone you look down upon. trailor trash is a phrase that gets inside of you and eats you away, something satan convinces you of till you can't escape it. i grew up in a trailor. though i didn't have the abuse, and i was raised in the chruch "knowing who i was" it still got into me. there were some at chruch who looked down upon us. many other places that did as well. i still struggle with it today, and i live nothing like that now. it's in my head. sometimes i feel like ppl will never respect me or anything i have to say or offer this world. i worry about passing that feeling and thinking on to my kids. reading this topic, as well as one awhile back in which ppl were posting pics of how some ppl live (mostly trailors) simply made me want to cry. my knowledge of who i am as a daughter of god will prevent me from ever living like that again, it still haunts me, it's still in my head. i still feel like trash sometimes. that is satan's game, see if he can't keep us down forever, keep us from our full potential, convince us that we are what the label tells us. until you've lived in a trailor park, untill you've been called trash; don't think you have the slightest clue as to why someone is there. i'm not saying there aren't things many can do to change that, but they have to overcome the label and probably many other hurddles before they can do anything about it. being viewed as a waste of others time isn't going to help them overcome anything. it will do nothing but serve to keep them exactly where they are.

i agree there is more to this. you deserve an explaination for why they reacted the way they did. and i noticed you said they haven't attended chruch in some time anyway; so your not going to the temple didn't keep them active......an excuse maybe? though this must be very hard, i can't imagine the difficulty, you must follow what you know to be right with the lord. if it is time for you to do that, and you and your husband are on the same page, then do it. yes the church is big on family, it is also big on we must take care of our own salvation; meaning no one else can get us into or keep us out of the kingdom. (for those who are going to attack this, yes the savior is vital to that, he is the reason any of us can get in, and we can not be saved had it not been for him; i'm speaking of regular family and friends here not the savior.) in the end your covenant between you and your husband is the most important; everyone else (parents and children) though important have their agency as well. don't let anyone use you as an excuse for their poor behavior or choices. you do what is right. if they choose to stop speaking to you let god help you sort that out; but keep god on your side at all costs; that is where the victory can be found. living the gospel (or your testamony) will never be easy all the time. take your trials in stride. a hymn just came to mind, lol, do what is right let the consiquence follow......

with my kids i started using the sign language for "more" and "finished" when i fed them. they learned them rather quickly. when they got fussy at the table i could ask what they wanted and know if i should give them seconds or clean them up. it was very helpful. much better than giving them seconds when they wanted down so in response they would throw the plate to the floor and we had a mess. i liked having them use some words...sort of. i would just sign it when i said it and did it. "ok we are all finished" (making the sign) then clean them up, put them down and tell them again that meal time is finished (while signing it). even the kids that didn't take up signing would respond postitvly to the one they wanted and i could still figure out what they needed. http://www.lifeprint.com/asl101/pages-signs/f/finish.htm http://www.lifeprint.com/asl101/pages-signs/m/more.htm i repeat the motion to my kids several times so they can really see it. with "more" one of mine modified it where they would point with one finger into the palm of the other hand; a very natural sign for more. i used that and the proper, alternating between them, he did eventually do it right.

they didn't ask me to teach a different sunday yet, i'm sure they will. but i will be given that lesson, this one will just be missed (my branch is big to stay on schedule and skip rather than get off) i guess this one was just for me. i was kinda relived that i didn't have to teach it, it was kinda an emotional sunday for me, not sure i could have gotten through it. the mission pres and his wife said some very thought provoking things in their lesson. it's all good. just thought it was rather humorous. i would have never read it or a lot of other things that were very helpful had i thought i wouldn't have to teach. had a stake pres yrs ago that was always saying, "coinsidence was mearly the times when the lord choses to remain anonomus". this was definatly an odd line up of coinsidences. lol

so back to the original topic lol because learning hebrew isn't on my list of things to do right now. that is interesting on the history of the second mile. we have a bit different meaning now in the church. i recently read an article about the topic that has a very interesting and i felt important take on that concept in terms of current application. http://www.deseretbooks.com/mormon-life/ne...ry?story_id=708

there are tons of songs (mostly country) that make me feel better, depends on why i'm down. the two i've been living off of the last month or two (litterally i listen to them almost daily). mentioned one in another topic Rascal Flatts - Stand http://www.hit-country-music-lyrics.com/Ra...and-Lyrics.html the other is an lds artist jenny phillips - true to you Something deep inside you wonders if you’ll ever be enough. You fall; you fell, as you try to measure up. It hurts more than you show, but you have to know, you’re never alone. He is there, always in your heart, even when you wonder if he knows who you are. He believes you will make it through and he knows all the things you are gonna do. No matter what you’re going through. He will remain true to you He knew all the things you would face and he knew what you would need. So he prayed and he cried and he fell upon his knees. It hurt more than you know. He’s ready to show you are never alone. He is there, always in your heart, even when you wonder if he knows who you are. He believes you will make it through and he knows all the things you are gonna do. No matter what you’re going through. He will remain true to you. He will remain true to you