omegaseamaster75

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 10:206. The guy built a distillery, never sold a drop or produced any so he claims. Have you ever been to the beehive house in Utah? It's been 20 years since I went and the number of wine decanters decorating the place went well beyond recreational usage. Things may have changed since. Is it so hard to believe that our prophets were fallible and made mistakes, that they we encumbered by the plague of a mortal body with mortal weaknesses like we are?

Does God change? was it once a good idea and then a bad one? I believe in President McKay's account, I also think that the political climate of the time did not allow for it to take place

I am a believer, and I do have a testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel, but I also believe that God lets us choose our path, we have the building blocks, the foundation, the tools necessary to find our way back to him. Those that think that God is involved in our everyday decision making process may be disillusioned to find out that he is not. If you think that he truly is then ask yourself this: why is there disease? why do people turn from the truth when they hear it? why is there famine, death, murder etc, etc.... the list can go on and on. He "God" lets us work 99% of things out for ourselves

I say the ban neither fulfilled God's will nor ran counter to it. I think he either : A: Remained silent on the subject or B: Gave Brigham Young direction which was ignored Even the Prophet has free will. Would it shock you if I said that Brigham Young was also an alcoholic?

Ours is a religion of faith, if the Book of Mormon is true then Joseph Smith was/is a prophet of God. He restored the gospel to this dispensation and with it the authority, keys and power of the priesthood. Through him and only him we find these things. We cannot "prove" anything that however does not make it untrue.

Johnny Miller- Pro Golfer

Does God let us as mortal men make mistakes and allow us to correct them later? Yes Do mortal men lead the church? Yes Was the church led astray from its divine purpose as a result of the ban? No So if the church was not led astray as a result of the ban, is it not possible that God let Brigham Young make a mistake? Or is it not possible that Brigham did not heed the counsel of God? I'm sure that has never happened to a prophet before. Some mistakes are hard to undo and once they become policy are even harder to rectify.

do you really think that Brigham Young was not a racist? hmmm...

I am not going to do a lot of research, but the church is governed by men, granted inspired men of God but men, do I think that David O Mckay wanted to over turn the ban yes probably, but if you look at the political climate of the times it was probably a bad move politically for the church to do so, so no removal. You can defend Brigham Young all you want, for me he was a prophet of God but also a man. Men make mistakes and many times when you are in a position of power a mistake is made and a policy is enacted and it takes years or decades to correct that mistake. I see nothing wrong with admitting that our leaders are fallible, history supports this not everything that the prophet does is inspired of God.

Ever read the journal of discourses? I have read it, and when I read it I try to put myself in an 1860's mind set. The country was racist in general and not accepting of our fellow man which lead to this terrible policy. We are derailing the thread but here is a small quote “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.” – JoD: vol.10 p. 110: (March 8, 1863) This was extreme thought even for the time period. He certainly could not have been speaking as a prophet when he wrote this. Once you make a policy how hard is it to retract that policy? Especially when you make that policy under auspice of being a prophet of God.....

Joseph Smith ordained Black Elders, this is documented fact. Brigham Young was the president of the church and in charge of policy. It's ok...he was a racist (this is my opinion only) and I am OK with that.

Just for fun....I'm not switching or changing anything, but I would be Catholic.

Not when it comes to bad behavior it doesn't, but the level of preparedness shows.

I agree 100%, my belief is that our leaders should get the essential training to LEAD and GUIDE then if they want to dedicate their lives to the church we provide a living wage similar to the stipend system used for Pres. Monson. I am not saying that our bishops/stake presidents are bad or that they do not call qualified people, however very often it is amateur hour, not their fault but a consequence of not being able to dedicate the time necessary to the calling.

I will address your other questions when I have time, but on Blacks and the priesthood. As far as I know it was never church doctrine, but rather church policy to not give them the priesthood. There is a difference. I think it was a travesty and a blight on the church during the period in which it happened, a lot of close mindedness started by Brigham Young. It was certainly never taught by Joseph Smith that the priesthood should be restricted. Were we as members get into trouble, and outside observers as well is that we put our leaders on pedestals. Big high tall ones. When we discover that they were normal people like you and me we become disillusioned. Joseph Smith was a normal guy just like you and me, he put his pants on one leg at a time, he practiced polyandry, lied to his wife, believed in magic and was a treasure hunter in his youth, swore, and drank. The list goes on and on. The fundamental question is: Was he a prophet of God? Yes with out a doubt!! We are imperfect individuals, and so was he and so are our current leaders, our religion is a religion of faith. If you can wrap your head around the idea that God communicates with imperfect beings in an effort to bring forth his work and glory none of the extra stuff really matters because it is temporal. Imperfect. Of man.

Is it against the WoW to smoke an E cig? I am going to say no, so your in the clear on that. The other stuff you may want to discuss with your Bishop.

We haven't had any problems with ours? Bad people come in all shapes forms sizes and religions, yes even ours.

OK call it remuneration, they still draw a "salary" Old info, but relevant to the conversation, no one becomes a priest because they want to get rich, they do it because they want to serve. PRIEST REMUNERATION AND BENEFITS PACKAGE EFFECTIVE 1 JULY 2009 THROUGH 30 JUNE 2010 1. The base salary for active Diocesan or religious priests serving in Diocesan parishes and institutions is to be $2,095.00 per month ($25,140 per year). 2. $10.00 per month for each year of ordination is to be added to the base pay beginning with the completion of the first year of ordination. Upon completion of the 20th year of ordination, $15.00 per month is to be added to the base pay for each year of ordination. EXAMPLES: A newly ordained priest receives the base pay for the first 12 months of active ministry. Priests completing 1 year through 19 years of ordination: (Number of years ordained) X $10.00 per month. This means if a priest has been ordained 19 years, multiply the number of years by the $10.00 per month. You would multiply 19 times 10, resulting in an addition to the base pay of $190.00 per month. Priests completing 20 years or greater of ordination: (Number of years ordained) X $15.00 per month. This means if a priest has been ordained 20 years, multiply the total number of years of ordination by the $15.00 per month. You would multiply 20 times 15, resulting in an addition to the base pay of $300.00 per month.3. The traditional Mass stipend ($10.00 per Mass) shall continue to be offered to each priest as has been the long standing custom. 4. Stole fees for weddings, funerals, baptisms, etc., shall be disbursed at the discretion of the priests of the parish. 5. The monthly amount for living costs is $424.00 per month for priests living at a parish, but not assigned to the parish. The department or entity where the priest is assigned is to pay this amount to the parish where the priest lives. 6. The entire amount of the annual contribution per priest to the Priests’ Retirement Fund is to be paid by the parish or institution to which a priest is assigned. The annual contribution for each priest to the Retirement Fund is $10,250 for 2010, up from the 2009 contribution of $9,850. Beyond 2010, however, this amount is subject to change after annual review by the Priests’ Retirement Board and approval by the Bishop. MORE INFORMATION PRINTED ON THE REVERSE SIDE OF THIS SHEET 7. The option of each priest to join the health insurance plan of his choice from the options provided by the Diocese of Cleveland Employee Benefits Office remains in effect. The parish or institution to which the priest is assigned is responsible for the cost of medical insurance less any required contributions or co-payments by the priest. 8. $2,000.00 per year is to be available (on a voucher system) for active priests’ continuing education allotment. This money should be used solely for the annual retreat, professional books and periodicals, tuition payments in conjunction with higher educational pursuits, and internet/electronic technology that is used for priestly ministry. $2,000.00 per year is available (on a voucher system) to retired priests from the parish or institution from which the priest retired. This money is to be used solely for the annual retreat, professional books and periodicals, tuition payments in conjunction with higher educational pursuits, and internet/electronic technology that is used for priestly ministry. If the continuing education allotment is given to a priest for reimbursement of an actual cost incurred for continuing education, it is generally not taxable income to the priest. The continuing education allotment is to be given to any priest (active or retired) who submits the appropriate documentation. 9. Usual offerings for those who provide extra pastoral assistance: 1 Weekday Mass $10.00 + stipend 1 Mass on Sunday or Holyday $50.00 + stipend 2 Masses on a Sunday or Holyday (on the same day) $75.00 + stipend Confessions $25.00 each session Reimbursement should be made for travel beyond 20 miles (one way). 10. All other expenses incurred by a priest (for example, car payments, car maintenance, auto insurance, personal property insurance, renters insurance, fuel for automobile, clothing and other personal items, recreation, Federal tax, State tax, and local tax liabilities, family and personal financial obligations, etc.) are the responsibility of the individual priest. The parish must not pay or reimburse the priest for car payments, lease payments, automobile insurance, mileage, or any other personal expense. The parish is not permitted to withhold or match Social Security or Medicare tax for any cleric. Diocesan clergy are dual status taxpayers. The individual priest is responsible for 100% of his Social Security payments. It is a violation of current tax law for the parish to pay or reimburse any Social Security expenses. 11.POLICY: There will be an annual adjustment (up or down) to the base salary and housing allowance in accordance with the transportation, recreation, other goods and services and housing categories of the local Consumer Price Index, All Urban Consumers. This shall be computed by the Finance Office and communicated by the Chancery after approval by the Bishop.

The OP should not engage in those activities, in fact I pointedly asked if he was because it is a turn off and an acceptable reason for being cut off.

Men and women view love form entirely different points of view. A woman wants compassion, trust, understanding, someone to talk to and confide in. Men do not need these things the display of love is in the act it's self. We are wired this way, it's physiological. We need different things from the relationship, my wife needs someone to take out the trash, cut the grass, change the oil, and I need sex....frequently. Sex is a vital part of a healthy relationship, not a bargaining tool, not a "prize" but something that should be shared frequently. The OP counted 3x in one year? UNACCEPTABLE. It's unacceptable bottom line. Pretty soon we will see a post from the OP's wife about how he is masturbating all of the time, watching porn and having sex outside of marriage, and what a good and dutiful wife she has been and how could this happen how she never saw it coming, we've never seen posts like that before have we?.....I CAN'T WAIT!!

I think that it is well documented that Joseph Smith lied to his wife about many of his marriages, and Emma went to great lengths to prove after his death that he did not practice polygamy, conversely the church at the same time went to great lengths to prove that he did. Did he practice polyandry I think that there is enough evidence to say that yes he did. It would be foolish to think that some of these marriages were not consummated. He married women as young as 14 and some much older, he was married about 34 times, he was married to Eliza Snow, which stands out as a notable to me. 11 of these women had living husbands. Let us not fool ourselves into thinking that everything was on the up and up in these relationships, he was a man of great power temporally and spiritually. This should not alter in any way your testimony of Joseph Smith, he still was who he was and accomplished great things in his short life. What we lose sight of as members is that he was still a man, he put his pants on one legs at a time just like me and you. He was susceptible to sin and clearly fell victim to it. We have scriptural references of him being scolded by God for being weak. We fall into the same trap with all of our ordained leaders, they are put on a pedestal and when we actually find out that they are fallible our faith gets rocked.. To the OP I do not think that it has ever been "doctrine" that you "must" practice polygamy in the celestial kingdom. There are writing of our leaders were they offer opinions and such but certainly not doctrine.

I think that we should trend towards paid clergy. If and only if for the need to have trained individuals to lead us. In the Catholic church a priest must go to years and years of schooling before he is qualified to lead a flock. This not only includes theological training but temporal training as well. If our Bishops were as well trained as other paid clergy we would have fewer issues in general. Less turnover, a true commitment to the work not "oh I was called so I guess I better do it". Scripture supports paid clergy so I am a little vague on as to why we do not go this route....

Maybe she needs to know that there are other "auditions" and she will take her role a a little more seriously. Just like in work, they bring in the young buck and all of the sudden everyone starts to work a little harder...because EVERYONE can be replaced.

First you didn't commit adultery, did you make poor decisions yes!! will you be excommunicated no way. It is obvious to the outside observer that the church still holds sway in your decision making process, go to church it's not hard and after a few weeks it will be a habit. Ignore the people who stare or say things like "long time no see". You still have a testimony deep down inside, grow it. If you have an addiction go to the church addiction recovery program. Don't make excuses just do it. Decide now what is important to you your wife and family or the bottle and poor decisions. Continue in therapy, I am one of those people who wouldn't tell your wife about your indiscretion, but that's me you have to make your own decision on that one.

The church is involved with scouting as a way to prepare youth to serve a mission. Earning Eagle Scout is secondary to them, do many of our youth earn the rank of Eagle yes, but that it a topic for another thread. The scouting program in the church is an extension of the YM program who's sole purpose is the indoctrination of they youth. LDS scouting and non LDS scouting are two totally different animals.