askandanswer

Sounds similar to Lehi Ether 13 He prophesies, is cast out,
 
 
I think the same applies to every other land. Ether 13:2 wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof;
 
 
I'm guessing this is referring to the destruction by the Babylonians rather than the destruction by the Romans. I'm not sure for how long Jerusalem remained a holy city. Ether 13:5 And he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come—after it should be destroyed it should be built up again, a holy city
 
 
I guess this could be interpreted in two ways. One way is that the house of Joseph is a remnant of a larger part and the other way is a remnant, or part, of the house of Joseph. If we take the latter interpretation then that raises questions about the rest of the house of Joseph. Ether 13:8 Wherefore, the remnant of the house of Joseph
 
 
Right now, Independence, Missouri sounds like the most likely contender, but at the moment that location is a long way from what it needs to be. Salt Lake probably used to be something like a holy city, but it no longer seems to have the character it once did, and Nauvoo is still not much more than a village. I note its exactly 80 miles from  Adam-ondi-ahman to the Temple Lot, Independence, Missouri. Ether 13:8 Wherefore, the remnant of the house of Joseph shall be built upon this land; and it shall be a land of their inheritance; and they shall build up a holy city unto the Lord, like unto the Jerusalem of old;
 
 
This may suggest that at some point there will be a lot of baptisms in the old Jerusalem. Ether 13:11  And then also cometh the Jerusalem of old; and the inhabitants thereof, blessed are they, for they have been washed in the blood of the Lamb;
 
Why is this past tense? Ether 13:10 and they are they who are numbered among the remnant of the seed of Joseph, who were of the house of Israel.
 
The Lord seems to be exercising tight editorial control on decisions about what is not written. I wander if there was the same degree of control over what was written. Ether 13:13 And I was about to write more, but I am forbidden; 
 
 
Night time is not usually the best time to do observations - its usually quite dark. What and how much could Ether view at this time? Ether 13:13 and by night he went forth viewing the things which should come upon the people.
 
 
In verse 13 Moroni mentions how great and marvellous were the prophecies of Ether but they don't seem to have had any impact. Ether 13:17 and in fine, there were none of the fair sons and daughters upon the face of the whole earth who repented of their sins.
 
 
Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. And the same deal is on the table for all of us, all the time - repent and be spared, don't repent and you won't be spared. Ether 13:20–21 he should go and prophesy unto Coriantumr that, if he would repent, and all his household, the Lord would give unto him his kingdom and spare the people—21 Otherwise they should be destroyed, and all his household save it were himself.
 
 
I wander if these are Jaredite place names or Nephite place names. Ether 13:28 did pursue him until he came to the plains of Heshlon.
 
 
 

I suspect that this statement is probably limited to faith only in those things which are true. There are many things, for example, that Sikhs have faith in, that will certainly not be brought to pass. And if we are being pedantic, I would speculate that it is by the power of the Priesthood that things happen more so than faith. Ether 12:3 by faith all things are fulfilled
 
 
The danger of having a testimony built on signs. Ether 12:5 which they did not believe, because they saw them not.
 
 
I guess that once we have seen something our faith is replaced by knowledge. But we see from 3rd Nephi 1 22 and 30 that even knowledge is insufficient. Ether 12:6 faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; 
 
 
How important is it for that belief to be focussed on something which is accurate/true. Is a belief in God with a body as tangible as man's better or the same as a belief in God as a spirit? If we were to accept the idea that both beliefs were of equal value, then it opens the question of where do we draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable beliefs in G/god. Is a belief in God the same as a belief in Allah? Is a belief in Allah the same as a belief in Krishna or Zeus? How does a belief in a god compare with belief in the God? From what i recall, there was a lengthy discussion of a question like this from a forum member a month or two back who seemed to be in favour of what he termed a universalist view. The first of the ten commandments suggests that its important to worship the right God and that belief in other gods is actually somewhat sinful. Ether 12:4  Wherefore, whoso believeth in God 
 
 
This is often a difficult concept for investigators to understand and accept. Man's way is show me and I will believe, God's way is believe and I will confirm. Ether 12:6 wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.
 
There are perhaps 70,000 missionaries and many others involved in preparing a way for others to partake of the heavenly gift but only Christ could have overcome the otherwise insurmountable barriers that were in the way. Ether 12:8 But because of the faith of men he has shown himself unto the world, and glorified the name of the Father, and prepared a way that thereby others might be partakers of the heavenly gift, 
 
 
I have difficulty with the idea that there are any limits on the ability of God to do miracles. I note that Mark 6:5 expresses a similiar idea that there is a connection between faith and God's/Christ's willingness/ability to do miracles. Ether 12:12  For if there be no faith among the children of men God can do no miracle among them; 
 
 
This raises a question that might be interesting. Did Alma and Amulek have faith that the walls of the prison would tumble or was their faith more in the general idea that they would be freed? I guess it makes sense that our faith should be centred on outcomes rather than methods. Ether 12:13 Behold, it was the faith of Alma and Amulek that caused the prison to tumble to the earth.
 
 
This seems to support the idea that it is not necessary that the recipients/beneficiaries/targets of a miracle to have faith, but that it is necessary for the person calling for such a miracle to have faith. There may be some inconsistencies with that idea and the idea that it is the faith of a person receiving a Priesthood blessing that makes that blessing operative, more so than the faith of the person giving the blessing. Ether 12:14 Behold, it was the faith of Nephi and Lehi that wrought the change upon the Lamanites, that they were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
 
One faith filled individual can make a huge difference. Ether 12:15  Behold, it was the faith of Ammon and his brethren which wrought so great a miracle among the Lamanites.
 
 
 
 

Sounds similar to Lehi Ether 13 He prophesies, is cast out,
 
 
I think the same applies to every other land. Ether 13:2 wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof;
 
 
I'm guessing this is referring to the destruction by the Babylonians rather than the destruction by the Romans. I'm not sure for how long Jerusalem remained a holy city. Ether 13:5 And he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come—after it should be destroyed it should be built up again, a holy city
 
 
I guess this could be interpreted in two ways. One way is that the house of Joseph is a remnant of a larger part and the other way is a remnant, or part, of the house of Joseph. If we take the latter interpretation then that raises questions about the rest of the house of Joseph. Ether 13:8 Wherefore, the remnant of the house of Joseph
 
 
Right now, Independence, Missouri sounds like the most likely contender, but at the moment that location is a long way from what it needs to be. Salt Lake probably used to be something like a holy city, but it no longer seems to have the character it once did, and Nauvoo is still not much more than a village. I note its exactly 80 miles from  Adam-ondi-ahman to the Temple Lot, Independence, Missouri. Ether 13:8 Wherefore, the remnant of the house of Joseph shall be built upon this land; and it shall be a land of their inheritance; and they shall build up a holy city unto the Lord, like unto the Jerusalem of old;
 
 
This may suggest that at some point there will be a lot of baptisms in the old Jerusalem. Ether 13:11  And then also cometh the Jerusalem of old; and the inhabitants thereof, blessed are they, for they have been washed in the blood of the Lamb;
 
Why is this past tense? Ether 13:10 and they are they who are numbered among the remnant of the seed of Joseph, who were of the house of Israel.
 
The Lord seems to be exercising tight editorial control on decisions about what is not written. I wander if there was the same degree of control over what was written. Ether 13:13 And I was about to write more, but I am forbidden; 
 
 
Night time is not usually the best time to do observations - its usually quite dark. What and how much could Ether view at this time? Ether 13:13 and by night he went forth viewing the things which should come upon the people.
 
 
In verse 13 Moroni mentions how great and marvellous were the prophecies of Ether but they don't seem to have had any impact. Ether 13:17 and in fine, there were none of the fair sons and daughters upon the face of the whole earth who repented of their sins.
 
 
Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. And the same deal is on the table for all of us, all the time - repent and be spared, don't repent and you won't be spared. Ether 13:20–21 he should go and prophesy unto Coriantumr that, if he would repent, and all his household, the Lord would give unto him his kingdom and spare the people—21 Otherwise they should be destroyed, and all his household save it were himself.
 
 
I wander if these are Jaredite place names or Nephite place names. Ether 13:28 did pursue him until he came to the plains of Heshlon.
 
 
 

One of my favorite quotes:
-- Ursula K. LeGuin, The Other Wind

I don't think I have shared a youtube clip here before, but I think this one is worth sharing. 
 

As President Bartlet learned, you are safe with stuffing as long as you cook it through. The problem is that by the time you cook your stuffing through the meat will be dry and overcooked.

The same one each year?

The same one each year?

This almost looks like an example of the Lord concealing or taking away His word which seems to me to be a puzzling thing to do, especially when you consider what was involved in delivering that word. A deliberate decision by God to cut off His children from His word. It may be that an effect of the removal of His word is to reduce the accountability of the people as there may be some issues about justice if they were held accountable to a standard to which they did not have access. I could probably do with some reduced accountability at times. Ether 4 Moroni is commanded to seal up the writings of the brother of Jared
 
 
So we get Moroni's abridgement of the writings of the brother of Jared Jared but not the actual writings. The wording is imprecise. In the non-scriptural heading to chapter 1 we get a sentence saying that Moroni abridges the writings of Ether. In the chapter heading for chapter 4 there is a reference to the writings of the brother of Jared. In the scriptural heading for the Book of Ether we get :The record of the Jaredites, taken from the twenty-four plates." We can probably conclude that there were 24 plates which contained a record of the Jaredites. Whether or not these plates included, or were different from, the writings of the Brother of Jared, or the writings of Ether, is not clear. It's also not clear whether the 24 plates and the record of the Jaredites are synonymous with each other or whether the 24 plates is sombody's abridgement of the Jaredite record. Or maybe I'm just getting tired and losing my focus. Ether 4 Moroni is commanded to seal up the writings of the brother of Jared
 
Moses in Mount Sinai. The Sermon on the Mount. The Brother of Jared meeting with the Lord in the mountain. The Hill Cumorah. Enoch meeting with the Lord on Mount Simeon. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints headquartered in the Rocky Mountains. The Mount of Transfiguration. This may be enough evidence to come to a tentative conclusion about how God feels about mountains. And then I remember Enoch displacing some mountains and commanding them to flee.   Ether 4:1 And the Lord commanded the brother of Jared to go down out of the mount from the presence of the Lord
 
Surely the Lord God shall do nothing save He revealeth His secrets unto His servants, the prophets, but it seems that He sometimes commands His prophets not to tell the people what He has revealed to them. I guess some things are revealed primarily for the prophet's benefit rather than the benefit of the people. Ether 4:1 And the Lord commanded the brother of Jared to go down out of the mount from the presence of the Lord, and write the things which he had seen; and they were forbidden to come unto the children of men until after that he should be lifted up upon the cross; and for this cause did king Mosiah keep them,
 
 
So we hear that the writings of the brother of Jared were made manifest to the people at the time of Christ but this was not mentioned in any way by anybody at the time of Christ and we have no hint of what these writings contain. Ether 4:2  And after Christ truly had showed himself unto his people he commanded that they should be made manifest.
 
 
With the taking away of the word of the Lord being here linked to rejection of the gospel of Christ, can we conclude from the fact that the word of the Lord was taken out of the earth in 1820, that the gospel was again starting to be accepted even before the gold plates came out of the earth? Ether 4:3 And now, after that, they have all dwindled in unbelief; and there is none save it be the Lamanites, and they have rejected the gospel of Christ; therefore I am commanded that I should hide them up again in the earth.
 
 
So does the sealed section of the plates contain both the direct account of the Brother of Jared and Moroni's account of what the Brother of Jared saw? A complete version and an edited version? Ether 4:4 4 Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw;
 
 
It would be an interesting exercise to, using the scriptures, list all the variables that might be taken into account when God is deciding how much to reveal, who to reveal it to, and the conditions on which things will be revealed. From there, the next step would be to try and rank in importance each of those variables, and finally, to make an estimate of the decision making process by seeing the interaction/inter-relationship between these variables. An exercise like that, guided by the Spirit, might help to give some understanding of the mind of God. Sometimes I think that its only when you can understand how something thinks and there decision-making process that you can have some basis for making a claim that you know someone. I think Joseph Smith taught that knowing God is the most important thing we need to do. Ether 4:4  and there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.
 
 
 I guess that Moroni used the interpreters to translate the writings of the Jaredites, and then Joseph Smith used those same interpreters to translate the writings of Moroni. Ether 4:5 and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/hymns/using-the-hymnbook?lang=eng&para=title8-p19#title8
Selecting Verses to Be Sung
You need not feel compelled to sing all the verses of a hymn unless the message is otherwise incomplete. However, do not routinely shorten a hymn by singing just the first one or two verses. Singing the verses printed below the music is encouraged.

I've just made next week's thread so I can't forget.
 
It's our last thread!  Given the holidays, you might want to rearrange chapters or read ahead some this week, or something...

My opinion, Moroni wasn't expecting to do anything except finish writing a few things his father told him to write.  But he survived longer than he thought, and the Lord instructed him to do more (and / or he just decided to add some more).  So I think Mormon 8 and 9 are Moroni's "well, I'll just wrap this up and we're done."  But then Ether and Moroni are Moroni's "huh, well, I'm still alive, so I guess I should do something useful."
But that's totally my opinion.  (You'll discover that Moroni includes in the book of Moroni some letters from his father.  So just as we have two Moroni chapters in Mormon, we'll have some Mormon chapters in Moroni. )
Alternate answer: Life is messy and unexpected.

This doesn't look anything like @Vort at all - far too thin

Hello Liz  I guess I haven't been paying close enough attention to the posts! 
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZIL-41047
The Zil has seven seats including the driver. When loaded it weighs 3,550 kg (7,826 lb). The top speed with two persons is listed as "not less than 190 km/h (118 mph)". It is powered by a 7.7 L (469 cubic inch) carbureted V8 giving 232 kW (315 hp SAE Gross) at 4,400 revs per minute. 
I see some similarities in terms of power and speed. I'm not going to say anything about weight. 
 
 

Fixed it
This doesn't look anything like @Vort at all - far too thin short 
Before I moved to the Northern Territory about 2 years ago, my body weight and shape was pretty much the same as when I got married. However, since moving here all of my pants have shrunk, my stomach has changed shape, and I've had to buy more new clothes in the past 2 years than I did in the previous 15. It's probably caused by a combination of age, the much hotter climate here in the NT, and my much more sedentary lifestyle. 

The Nephite journey doesn't seem to have taken as long as the Jaredite journey:
 
Nibley speculated that the route Lehi and his family traveled would have been dangerous (for outsiders) and fire would have given away the fact that there were people there.  No fire in the barges seems obvious.

Fixed it
This doesn't look anything like @Vort at all - far too thin short 
Before I moved to the Northern Territory about 2 years ago, my body weight and shape was pretty much the same as when I got married. However, since moving here all of my pants have shrunk, my stomach has changed shape, and I've had to buy more new clothes in the past 2 years than I did in the previous 15. It's probably caused by a combination of age, the much hotter climate here in the NT, and my much more sedentary lifestyle. 

I'll have you know that when I graduated from high school at 18, I was a bit over 6'4" (193 cm) and weighed just under 165 pounds (75 kg). Zil's sketch may not have been flattering, but it's not a bad representation of what I looked like. Except for the wing. And my horns are not that prominent.

This doesn't look anything like @Vort at all - far too thin

The only other Zil I know is the Russian luxury car. Given your experiences in Russia last century, I'm wondering if there is a connection?

Here's the watch I need to gift you this Christmas:

 

It must be difficult to fight for a cause when you have no hope of winning. It is, also suggested by other scriptures that to be without hope is not too different from being without faith. Mormon 5:2 But behold, I was without hope, 
 
 
Maybe there was a resurgence in the popularity of Jewish place names after Christ. In chapter 1 we saw David, Joshua and Aaron all being used as place names.  Mormon 5:3 And it came to pass that the Lamanites did come against us as we had fled to the city of Jordan;
 
 
This reminds me of 2nd Samuel 11:2 when that which should have been hidden was revealed from the house top. Mormon 5:8  knowing that these things must surely be made known, and that all things which are hid must be revealed upon the house-tops—
 
So far the Book of Mormon does not have a strong track record in convincing unbelieving Jews that Jesus is the Christ, unless we count the original inhabitants of central and south America as Jews because they descended from Lehi who was a Jew. But that seems silly, because if we apply that logic we could count the Jews as Egyptians, or of whatsoever land Jacob was in when his 12 sons were born. Mormon 5:14 And behold, they shall go unto the unbelieving of the Jews; and for this intent shall they go—that they may be persuaded that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God; that the Father may bring about, through his most Beloved, his great and eternal purpose, in restoring the Jews, or all the house of Israel, to the land of their inheritance.
 
 
This is where the Book of Mormon has been spectacularly successful. Mormon 5:15  And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles;
 
 
I have a vague memory of Brigham Young or Joseph Smith commenting on/describing the native peoples of the Americas and I don't think that description is consistent with this prophecy here. Mormon 5:15 for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us,
 
 
This is an interesting, and I believe somewhat controversial among some people, idea, that there is a connection between physical appearance and levels of belief/wickedness. I suspect there is not a lot of evidence for it because some of the most wicked and war-mongering people have been white. Mormon 5:15   and this because of their unbelief and idolatry.
 
 
The people who were being led about by Satan were engaged as hard as they could in mutual destruction. Satan could have his way with these people without restraint and his way was to lead them to death as fast as possible.
Both Satan, in these chapters, and Christ, in 3rd Nephi 8, engaged in wholesale destruction of the wicked. Mormon 5:18  But now, behold, they are led about by Satan, even as chaff is driven before the wind,
 
 
This is another example of how gifts of land and promised blessings from God are conditional and can easily be passed to another group of people. Mormon 5:19 And behold, the Lord hath reserved their blessings, which they might have received in the land, for the Gentiles who shall possess the land.
 
 
The Nephites of his time are not listening to his preaching, so Mormon starts preaching to a people more than a thousand years into the future. I guess that like Alma, he could not be restrained.  Mormon 5:22 And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?

Pick a plot
Any plot
They would all make a fine, final resting place for your story 
https://assets.ctfassets.net/ud83ml8x57b0/3dkCO43AMmTo6NM6kTxQZ1/7ad58ea580412012160eda5b9a5a8354/Healesville_Cemetery_Price_List_2020-21.pdf

My daughters have really been on a roll with metaphors during this final stretch of our Come Follow Me studies. As we have talked about light about bringing light to the world my middle daughter is set on ensuring she turns on ever light switch in the house and wants a flashlight so she can bring light to others. When talking about Christ at the door, my daughters could not get past wanting to know when he was going to get to our door, and which one of them would get to answer it. 
We have been praying to have successful days at school and to be kind to our friends and helpful for our teachers because one of my daughters is struggling with that. After having a good day she proudly informed me that we are now all good and don't need to pray anymore. 
It has been a fun end of the New Testament full of lots of opportunities to learn and expand on things together.

Didn't we go over this one before?  Eve's fall caused Eve to fall.  It wasn't until Adam chose to fall that mortal mankind became a possibility, and, of course, they would come into a fallen state.  Had Adam chosen to stay in his initial state, there would have been no "mankind".
Or, the snarky version: By Eve came the fall of woman and by Adam came the fall of man.